Brainstorming new features - part 1 - Character Evolution

[takfar@gmail.com 24]

I'm a long-time gamer (been playing for over 20 years) of every style - Shooters, adventure games, strategy games, RPGs, simulations, you name it. That said, I've grown completely addicted to Day Z over the last couple weeks. I've died dozens of times, to zombies, to thirst, to other players. I've been scared to death, and I've killed a player who threatened me. Day Z, even tho very bare, is already very very engaging, as all forumites will concur. There are, however, a few suggestions I'd make in order to make it even better. Sure, I've read many of them, and some are a bit obvious, but I wanted to post my own ideas here. Before the flamers start their thing, this is not an attempt to turn the game into WoW or CoD, but rather a way to make us feel even more invested in this world we've immersed ourselves in, and make it even more deliciously realistic. If you don't like the suggestions, please be on your merry way, as it's little use to come into a brainstorming thread to post "YOU SUCK!" "GO AWAY" and "DIE DIE NOW". Also, I know some of these things might be unreachable in the Arma2 engine, but Rocket has already stated he's planning on making this stand-alone, so there's some room for evolution there. My suggestions involve player customization/evolution, the measuring of stamina, player load (and its effects on stealth), and the locking and unlocking of doors/containers. I'm not even going into bandit/survivor dynamics, base building or other features, which are heavily discussed elsewhere.

(part 2 is here: http://dayzmod.com/f...ners-and-locks/)

All suggestions are very open to discussion. If we develop something good and the devs hear us, we might inspire some new, good, things in the game. Please sound in. [edit: I've summed up and added the ongoing discussions to each point in quote boxes under each part. will update as new ideas arise.]

1. PLAYER EVOLUTION (skills and kits)

So first, here's my own idea for the skill/development scenario. As I said, it's a way to make the player feel more attached to the character, and it's also a way to change the player from the current jack-of-all-trades superman into something more lifelike. Some people would argue that "this is a simulation, go away with all your stinky roleplaying game mechanics", to which I'll reply: ARMA 2 is a military simulation. It simulates a fully prepared military man, on his top physical and mental form. Day Z is a post-apocalypse simulation, and we all know how unlikely it'd be that every survivor would be that skilled in everything. As a casual fan of the zombie genre, I'm yet to see a single character that would fit that mold. Sure, the weaker people will have already died to the apocalypse, but skilled people from different walks of life would survive.

Notice that the system doesn't restrict player evolution in any way: the character would evolve very naturally doing those things he does normally, and a long-time survivor/bandit could potentially reach top condition in all skills, and become the current supergenius, but it would take a while (perhaps about 20 hours of varied activity ingame with the same character?). The only thing being determined initially would be the skills pertaining to the character's background in life. Also notice the skills listed involve complex knowledge or preparation that the character acquires. Things such as the orientation in the woods, group leadership and detecting the intentions of another player should be skills the PLAYER HIMSELF should develop, and not the character.

1.1.SKILLS

That said, the game would have nine skills (classed within three categories. you'll notice I like "threes". I just think three is an elegant number). All skills would be rated on a 0-100% scale, visible in a character menu. Before spawning the player would be able to choose one primary skill, which would start at 90%, two secondary skills, starting at 60% (consider also adding one "incompetence" skill, starting at 0%). All other skills would start at 30%. Training in each skill would be achieved by simply using it. It would be possible to add a skill "degrade" mechanic, through which not using a skill for a full ingame day would slowly make it degrade all the way back to the initial level.

1.1.1. COMBAT

- Primary weapons: involves reload speed and weapon accuracy for primary weapons.

> top condition: at 100%, the player is as good a shot as he currently is;

> low condition: at a low percentage, he reloads very slowly (may actually drop a magazine while reloading) and his hands shake a lot.

> trained by: hitting targets. A live target (zombie or player) will train faster, but you can shoot cans and bottles for safer training while in the woods. Brings about memories of the Walking

Dead's training scenes, and would create serious tension in the woods (are these sounds of gunfire aimed at me, or is it people training?). Also gives some use to those weapons and

ammo you wouldn't normally use in combat: take them to target practice!

- Sidearms: same as above, but for sidearms.

- Melee weapons: involves how hard you can hit and how much stamina each swing consumes (more on stamina system afterwards)

> top condition: at 100%, the player will always one-hit kill with an axe;

> low condition: at a low percentage, it will two or three swings (and he might actually miss some swings or drop the weapon)

> trained by: hitting targets. must hit and damage a live target (zombie or player).

>opinions voiced:

- The player should do the aiming, not some random number

>the idea is not to take control off the player, but simulate the unsteady hands of a begginer. It's harder to aim straight and to recover from kickback if you're not used to shooting.

- Handicapping starting players with less accuracy (actually, the idea is increased shaking of hands) might break game balance and make them even easier prey to veterans

>true enough. how could we simulate a person getting better with the guns, then? Maybe forget shaky hands and just limit this skill to reload time and weapon kickback? How about

gun training? I feel it would add a significant amount of realism and tension to the otherwise peaceful woods.

1.1.2. PRACTICAL:

- Survivalism: involves hunting, foraging (if it is added), acquiring meat and making meals off hunted animals.

> top condition: at 100%, the player works as quickly and flawlessly as he does now.

> low condition: at a low percentage, the actions are much slower and might fail (a fire might not catch after a prolonged attempt and expend the wood, a cow might only yield a couple edible

meat rather than 8, a cooking attempt might char the meat, making it inedible).

> trained by: attempting survivalism actions. Any attempt, successful or failed, will add to the score (failed firestarting attempts will not add to the skill).

- Medicine: involves all sorts of healing.

> top condition: at 100% all attempts at healing (self or others) will succeed.

> low condition: the percentage of the skill corresponds to the chance an action will be successful or not. Very low skills might both fail and damage the target in the attempt.

> trained by: attempting medicine actions. Any attempt, successful or failed, will add to the score (any resource will be expended on a failed attempt. bandages would be easier to apply, maybe a

+30% bonus over the normal level, so even incompetent healers could have a chance to haphazardly bandage a wound).

- Engineering: involves vehicle maintenance and repair, as well as setting and disarming barriers and traps, and locking/unlocking doors and containers (more on this later).

> top condition: at 100% all attempts at engineering will succeed.

> low condition: the percentage of the skill corresponds to the chance an action will be successful or not. Very low skills might actually damage a vehicle when attempting to repair.

> trained by: attempting engineering actions. Any successful attempt would add to the score. Failed attempts would prevent the player from retrying the same action (eg. repairing a specific

vehicle) for one ingame day.

>opinions voiced:

- This is very mean to players!

>That's the idea. If you didn't learn to do something in your life predating the apocalypse, you have to "learn it by practice". You can't fix a guy's leg or extract a bullet if you've never

even held a surgical knife before.

1.1.3. PHYSICAL:

- Endurance: involves running, swimming and vaulting.

> top condition: at 100%, the player can run practically indefinitely, as he does now. A true marathon runner. This player will also swim faster, and automatically vault over obstacles while

running (seen this suggestion elsewhere, liked it).

> low condition: at a low percentage, the player will tire easily, and running/swimming will consume more thirst/hunger.

> trained by: running and swimming. Since everyone runs almost all the time and there's no risk or resources involved, progress would be very slow, so it would take several days of running

everywhere to get to 100%.

- Stealth: involves moving stealthily. (wouldn't be a HUGE difference between 0 and 100% levels, since player skill should be the defining factor here, but enough to be noticeable).

> top condition: at 100%, the player is slightly harder for zombies to detect as he is now. His footsteps are also quieter, making him harder for other players to hear.

> low condition: at a low percentage, his visual and aural signs are more conspicuous. His footsteps are also louder for other players to hear.

> trained by: remaining undetected in a situation in which standing up would result in detection by zombies. Progress would be relatively slow.

- Resistance: both a physical and mental state, involves how long the player can go without food or water.

> top condition: at 100%, the player can hold out more than twice as much as he does now (I feel the need to eat a steak every two hours or so is a bit too unrealistic).

> low condition: At low percentages, he will get hungry and thirsty quicker, especially if running.

> trained by: automatically increases every couple hours of gameplay, so veteran characters who have resisted the apocalypse for long will be tougher.

>opinions voiced:

- Sneaking should be a completely player-driven skill, and character numbers shouldn't interfere

>every survival and zombie story has the "sneaky one" and "the loud, careless one who dies stupidly". Transitioning from one to the other could be an interesting journey. Likewise,

it's common to see a scene in which someone alerted a zombie because he mistakenly stepped on a branch, creating a loud crack noise, and putting everyone in danger. If we decide

anyway that zombie avoidance will be completely player-driven, however, we could still apply the skill to the ability to sneak while carrying large backpacks (as suggested in my other

thread). Anyone would be able to sneak well when barebacked, but the larger your backpack, the more noise you'll make, and you'll need character skill to counteract this. Also,

making softer footstep noises in PvP would remain an important part of the skill.

- Will make hunger and thirst less of a part of the game

>honestly, once you acquire the full survival kit (canteen, matches, knife, hatched), hunger and thirst are no longer a big issue, in the current game. The idea would include increased

thirst from running, but reduced thirst from just walking or crawling (relieving the pressure if you just want to sit down and roleplay with friends. Also, because hunting would be slightly

harder (due to having to develop the survivalism skill), it would remain mostly balanced until the character became a fully experienced survivor, at which point food and drink shouldn't

be a huge problem, anyway. .

1.2. CHARACTER KITS:

Now, I'm the first to say this would be a completely uneccessary addition to the game, still, it would add some color to the game, making it easier to make up our own stories and simulate those stories we see in our favorite zombie narratives, while not restricting player growth in any way. There would also be a large assortments of kits to be chosen making this "not TF2", but just a simulator with some added flavor. Kits would be an automatic choice of skills, which would be based on a character's background and would also affect his starting equipment. Clothing listed here would be mostly aesthetic and changeable for any other clothes found in dead bodies or in loot spots. Another advantage of having kits is that survivors could more easily identify others who would compliment their group, while bandits could more easily target newly-spawned characters, knowing which extra items they might get (or they could be lured into this thinking by a savvy survivor wearing clothes from another class, or could lure others by masquerading this way) Any player could still choose to spawn with a custom class and stay inconspicuous, but would miss the specific equipment given to kits.

Here are some examples:

1.2.1. Soldier:

Background: Trained military man.

Primary skill: Primary weapons

Secondary skills: Secondary weapons, Endurance

Starting Equipment: One bandage, Makarov (with no ammo)

Clothing: Military uniform

1.2.2. Policeman:

Background: Active police enforcer

Primary skill: Secondary weapons

Secondary skills: Primary weapons, Stealth

Starting Equipment: One bandage, flashlight, Police baton (low-damage melee weapon)

Clothing: Police uniform

1.2.4. Medic:

Background: Trained physician

Primary skill: Medicine

Secondary skills: Engineering, survivalism

Starting Equipment: One bandage, one shot of morphine, one box of painkillers

Clothing: Civilian clothes (short coat over a polo shirt, common pants)

1.2.5. Woodsman:

Background: Wilderness explorer

Primary skill: Survivalism

Secondary skills: Endurance, Resistance

Starting Equipment: One bandage, full water bottle

Clothing: Explorer clothes

1.2.6. Hunter:

Background: Big game hunter

Primary skill: Primary weapons

Secondary skills: Stealth, Survivalism

Starting Equipment: One bandage, hunting knife

Clothing: Explorer clothes

1.2.7. Mechanic:

Background: Mechanical engineer

Primary skill: Engineering

Secondary skills: Stealth, Survivalism

Starting Equipment: One bandage, toolbox

Clothing: Working overalls

1.2.8 Burglar:

Background: Petty criminal

Primary skill: Stealth

Secondary skills: Engineering, Melee

Starting Equipment: One bandage, flashlight, one set of lockpicks

Clothing: civilian clothes (jeans, shirt)

1.2.9 Inmate:

Background: Escaped state prison inmate

Primary skill: Meelee

Secondary skills: Stealth, Engineering

Starting Equipment: One bandage, crowbar

Clothing: disguised inmate uniform

1.2.10 Athlete:

Background: Former chernarussian olympic star in training

Primary skill: Endurance

Secondary skills: Melee, medicine

Starting Equipment: Three bandages, one box of painkillers

Clothing: Sports pants and coat

1.2.11 Farmer

Background: Farmer

Primary skill: Survivalism

Secondary skills: Primary weapons, medicine

Starting Equipment: One bandage, double-barreled shotgun (with no ammo)

Clothing: Farmer clothes

1.2.13 Custom

Background: Custom

Primary skill: Any one (player chooses)

Secondary skills: Any two (player chooses)

Starting Equipment: Two bandages, flashlight

Clothing: Civilian clothes (generic)

>opinions voiced:

- Kits shouldn't exist

>fair enough. Just let everyone customize their starting skills (basically, everyone uses the "custom" kit). We'd be missing an opportunity to try to add some extra flavor to the game,

tho, and a way to easily identify potentially good additions to a team.

- It would still handicap people in important skills, and the extra incentive for grouping is not worth it.

>we could start everyone at 50% on all skills, then? Each one chooses the road to take. Would be missing the element of "who you were before" and homogenizes everyone again,

imo. We're all "military man #7468", only we have to train a little bit to be better at stuff.

>Some extra considerations:

As you might have noticed, my intention is to create a little bit more drama in the game, to involve the player more in the character's life, making it less generic, less sterile. Make you feel you're guiding a character interacting with other characters, rather than a computer model interacting with other players' computer models.

So, that's it. Of course there could be more preset kits, maybe one for each combination of primary and secondary skills. The discussion of other game aspects (stamina, player load, locks) will continue on a separate thread.

http://dayzmod.com/f...ners-and-locks/

[edit: fixed some typos. added colors to titles.]

[edit 2: added considerations from other posters]

Edited July 15, 2012 by takfar

[idunc 62]

No. Stop with all this skills/classes junk please! This is a simple game. It doesn't need all of that.

[takfar@gmail.com 24]

No. Stop with all this skills/classes junk please! This is a simple game. It doesn't need all of that.

You're entitled to your opinion, I'm entitled to mine. Why should I stop? That notwithstanding, a game that includes a true day/night cycle, hunger, thirst, several player stances, dozens of different equipment and whatnot, is hardly simple. The idea of character skills is there simply to add another progress path other than loot, and to cut back the superpowers of the original character (or rather, stop every single survivor from spawning as a super genius and super athlete), and the classes are just guidelines for a starter character, which could be entirely customized anyway.

Edited July 15, 2012 by takfar

[Mallick 8]

I think to start with we need to look at the starting choices when creating a character, atm there is male and female.

my suggestion would be to add a choice after that.

A choice of what your career was before the fall of man, like some of the class's you have here, each choice would have different starting gear.

i think if we moved to something like this then maybe later on it can be evolved into something more like you suggest.

[Confus 3]

I think having the skill system would allow some grinding unless there is some restriction. There should be a very gradual progression for all skills, training by doing stuff like shooting cans wtih a pistol should have a cap to the amount of XP you can get from that kind of training, and proficiency should not be expressed as a number, but rather as a vague desceription like "incompetent" or "masterful."

[adamtheheretic 106]

Okay, so this is very well set out, I don't like the lack of colour though, maybe throw in some yellow bold text for titles and sub-titles? some italic for the sections in parenthesis.

For the actual idea...

[1.1] I love it, the stealth part is the only exception... I do think the difference between 0 and 100% should be minimal but I don't think it should take a long time, it should be relatively quick...

[1.2] Don't overly like the idea but fine with it being experimented with if the stand-alone project goes the way of minecraft with constant updates. (Which I think it will)

Edited July 15, 2012 by FishIsTwonk

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

I am still processing the large amount of suggestions you put up (well the large amount of words) ... this particular part reminds me a lot of this suggestion:

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/32582-learning-by-doing-the-alternative-to-classes-professions/ and i think combining efforts to come to something good/worthy of DayZ may be helpfull...

In that regard i do want to give you some feedback on 2 things i am having a hard time living with. The first and likely most important is 'stealth', that just shouldn't be an option as it makes both makes not much sense, while at the same time it can become OP very fast. And realy, it just makes no sense, if a stealthy player 'runs' or w/e they just make the same noises as others, i know what you are trying to do, but it's just not good for the game because it's not even 'believable', same goes with zombies seeing you, they either do or don't, no 'stat' is going to change that (other than maybe those in RPGs)...

And with the way you set up the starting loadout picking a burglar is best, as stealth takes a long time to fill up, and it's the strongest stat, so starting at 90% on that one is basically a must...

The second is starting load-outs, we (atleast I) are not even sure why we are on that beach, did we try and escape but our boat sunk in a storm (all nasty things come at the same time or something along those murphy laws), did we drift at sea for days unconcious bearly drowning, when we washed a shore did we suffer from PTSD or Amnesia? Do we even know what we did before we ended up on that beach?

I prefer people all starting the same, and preferably with nothing, or maybe a bandage ... there are some decent elements to this suggestion though, and they may well fit good with the tread i linked...

[takfar@gmail.com 24]

Okay, so this is very well set out, I don't like the lack of colour though, maybe throw in some yellow bold text for titles and sub-titles? some italic for the sections in parenthesis.

For the actual idea...

[1.1] I love it, the stealth part is the only exception... I do think the difference between 0 and 100% should be minimal but I don't think it should take a long time, it should be relatively quick...

[1.2] Don't overly like the idea but fine with it being experimented with if the stand-alone project goes the way of minecraft with constant updates. (Which I think it will)

There, added some colors :)

Regarding stealth, the idea is that development of all skills should be relatively slow, ie. it should take several stealthy town raids for a completely inexperienced infiltrator to become as good as the best.

In that regard i do want to give you some feedback on 2 things i am having a hard time living with. The first and likely most important is 'stealth', that just shouldn't be an option as it makes both makes not much sense, while at the same time it can become OP very fast. And realy, it just makes no sense, if a stealthy player 'runs' or w/e they just make the same noises as others, i know what you are trying to do, but it's just not good for the game because it's not even 'believable', same goes with zombies seeing you, they either do or don't, no 'stat' is going to change that (other than maybe those in RPGs)...

And with the way you set up the starting loadout picking a burglar is best, as stealth takes a long time to fill up, and it's the strongest stat, so starting at 90% on that one is basically a must...

People are normally clumsy, make unwanted noises, topple over stuff when in buildings, or break random branches when in the woods. Avoiding these pitfalls could be obtained by sneaking for a few hours, ingame. This is to encourage groups to say "go, you're the sneaky one. get in that base, and if anything happens, I'll be covering you from outside." or "this area is too dense with zombies. only the burglar can get through". A new player who didn't opt for stealth as a primary skill could go into towns at night, when it's much harder for the zombies to spot you, and train for a maybe a week. A stealth expert might be able to get into the same town by day. What I'm thinking is it should take a couple weeks of regular play, for a character to reach top level on every skill. You could concentrate on sneaking for the first few days, which is really what anyone would do, unless he's out for player blood. Game-wise, the difference between "zero" stealth and "full" stealth might be a 20-30% decrease in zombie visual and aural detection radius. Nothing too drastic. Also, the burglar would be forfeiting the all-important medicine skill, so even with a +30 bonus to bandages, he might die to the very first scrape, if he's unlucky when applying a bandage. That's the beauty of the skill system: you will be very good in one thing, and will use that skill in order to get better in others and become a fully fit survivor.

The second is starting load-outs, we (atleast I) are not even sure why we are on that beach, did we try and escape but our boat sunk in a storm (all nasty things come at the same time or something along those murphy laws), did we drift at sea for days unconcious bearly drowning, when we washed a shore did we suffer from PTSD or Amnesia? Do we even know what we did before we ended up on that beach?

I'm not too sure on the loadout thing myself, either. It's just an idea to add to the roleplaying, making us feel like a character in a zombie movie rather than "military guy #8471". I also question myself about the beach. Maybe a mistery to be discovered? I toyed with the idea of starting different kits at different places, but I believe it could make the game less interesting (ie. every PvP'er picking up a soldier to start at Balota or airfield)

Also, thanks for the link. Nice ideas there, too.

Edited July 15, 2012 by takfar

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

You know i do have another suggestion that could fit in where you currently have stealth, and it would fit the 'physical' parameter nicely, that is 'Strength' in the idea to add weight to items. As i realy realy dislike stealth, sneaking through towns etc. is a player thing to learn, when to prone where you can stand up etc. it's actually such a big part of the whole game that everybody would want that as a primairy stat, esp. if it denies access to locations just based upon some arbitrairy number... realy, ditch it, the rest i good, but stealth is bad !

thread about weight including strength: http://dayzmod.com/f...eight-on-items/

Edited July 15, 2012 by L0GIN

[petward 6]

I'm glad I took the time to actually read this. While it is different beast than my own post on the subject, it is the same base concept and still has some of it's own merits. However, I do have a few points of advice.

1. The Resistant, and the Weapon skills all break a pretty important point in DayZ. The balance between New Survivors and Veteran Survivors. The makes it so that Veteran survivors are harder to kill than fresh survivors. In my opinion the balance between the two should always be there. That is to say both are on equal... "getting killed" grounds.
   
2. Now this is a somewhat more personal, but I personally do not like the idea of picking something from the start, as in the "background" of your character. Sure you were obviously someone else before the plague, but that should be reflected in your actions, not in your starting loadout. This is why I'm against classes or loadout features. Although it would help with people grouping up it would not fit into the idea of DayZ. Again, this point is pretty opinionated.
   

Other than that a lot of your ideas are extremely similar to mine. It's like your inside my head O_o. I especially like the throwback to the fallout 1/2 skill system. I like percentages... I laughed at how mean your medicine and survival skills are. I can only imagine the river of tears as people fail to use that morphine.

[takfar@gmail.com 24]

[

You know i do have another suggestion that could fit in where you currently have stealth, and it would fit the 'physical' parameter nicely, that is 'Strength' in the idea to add weight to items. As i realy realy dislike stealth, sneaking through towns etc. is a player thing to learn, when to prone where you can stand up etc. it's actually such a big part of the whole game that everybody would want that as a primairy stat, esp. if it denies access to locations just based upon some arbitrairy number... realy, ditch it, the rest i good, but stealth is bad !

thread about weight including strength: http://dayzmod.com/f...eight-on-items/

Actually, I think "strength" could be encapsulated into "endurance". As I replied above, being skilled in stealth would not just involve standing in the correct spot, but also avoiding unwanted noises when moving, and maybe being able to sneak with a fuller, heavier backpack equipped.

[partvi 4]

The high risk of the game is why, I believe, everyone just starts out on an equal footing as far as the character's 'capability' is concerned. Which, honestly, I don't know how anyone can take the character for an ultra-capable genius. Just about anyone who isn't an useless lump (The same type that is quickly culled by the zombie apocalypse) can manage to survive some span of time into the zombie apocalypse. Through luck, skill or simple resources. Doesn't mean they're unstoppable badasses or anything since, uh, an unstoppable genius badass would probably have the ability to at least slow a zombie down long enough to escape it on open ground. Or defend themselves to some extent without a weapon. Or not freeze to death up on a mountain slope in the night. Or be able to improvise some method to stop bleeding, fix a broken bone...

The game is about the mere mortal, pitting player versus player. Your skill rewards you with better equipment, possibly affiliations and ultimately a longer life. Nothing more. Besides, new players have to struggle just to find a crappy gun to fend off their peers and, later, bandits. Why pit them against a character that not only has a tremendous advantage of resources(supplies, weapons, allies) but also a sharp advantage in their survival skills? It doesn't work and, I think, it's too harsh a punishment toward skilled and more casual players than it is the hardcore who just want to or simply can sink more time in. Trust me, it's better this way.

Else, it may as well turn into FPS-Eve Online, with new weapons and gear requiring increasingly time-consuming skill ups and folks banding together under super-equipped and skilled pirate kings, occasionally ursurping each other's rule and hold on territory. Stealing from and killing anyone unwitting enough to enter their domain, etc etc. Then again, maybe that appeals? I dunno. But even Eve isn't as all-or-nothing as Day Z. You at least don't get reset to 0 even if you get podded in Eve. Unless you're an idiot and didn't keep clones. But I digress.

As to the beach, it's a convenient and broad area to spawn people, bare enough of resources and exposed enough to convince you to move on somewhere else.

TL;DR - Fukufukufukufukufukufukufukufukufukufuku

[khknight 3]

Instead of adding artificial "gamey" character evolution, why not just let the games world affect the players evolution. I used to be a pacifist, after getting my first kill I felt regret, I felt like I really just killed someone. After that moment I changed. the next survivor that I met, I aimed my gun at his face without hesitation, I was ready to shoot. My buddy had to calm me down, tell me to lower my gun. It's just amazing how this game can change you as a person. From an innocent player to a cold blooded murderer.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

Please god will people stop suggesting skill trees, character progression, levelling up and so on. It really does miss the point of what makes DayZ unique. Remember, that's what brought you here to start with. A unique experience. Nothing you've suggested is unique, it's all been done a million times before (and suggested on here even more).

Edited July 15, 2012 by Fraggle

[partvi 4]

Instead of adding artificial "gamey" character evolution, why not just let the games world affect the players evolution. I used to be a pacifist, after getting my first kill I felt regret, I felt like I really just killed someone. After that moment I changed. the next survivor that I met, I aimed my gun at his face without hesitation, I was ready to shoot. My buddy had to calm me down, tell me to lower my gun. It's just amazing how this game can change you as a person. From an innocent player to a cold blooded murderer.

Seems like it's working as intended, huh! I noticed the same effect when linking up with a friend I've been playing with the first time. In fact, I feel I should clarify. We've been playing games for years, he and I and usually use Ventrilo to communicate. I turned a corner in a fairly far-off-from-spawn town stopped when I saw him and waited and he wasted no time shooting me in the face because I was holding an axe and looking at him. Jumpy!

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

Ok well i tried, going over the skills again in more detail...

weapons

I do not like the accuracy, as again that makes no sense, it is a player skill it should not be controlled by some arbitrairy number, this goes for all weapons basically.. the 'reload' time on weapons makes some sense though.

practical

these are pretty much also covered in my 'learning by doíng' thread, with the difference that people all start out at the same level...

physical

- endurance, i am fairly sure this will be added to the game, perma running just doesn't seem to fit in with DayZ

- stealth, this is some illogical rpg skill, and while i fully understand what you try to achief, an arbitrairy number here is just bad, this is a player skill and gaining 1/3 or 30% of an advantage for playing the game is just silly...

- Resistance, while i agree on the food situation, you do need to realize that food & water are two driving forces in the game, they are set up on short cycles so every player encounters them. Also, a human just needs calories and moisture, and you need a certain amount of it, you may be able to fight your hunger/thirst better than the next guy so that you might be able to find something, but you will both still die of dehydration/starvation at the same time if you both do not find something... so if this is supposed to do anything it should be at those later stages of hunger, not the early stage of needing food or water...

Edited July 15, 2012 by L0GIN

[takfar@gmail.com 24]

I'm glad I took the time to actually read this. While it is different beast than my own post on the subject, it is the same base concept and still has some of it's own merits. However, I do have a few points of advice.

The Resistant, and the Weapon skills all break a pretty important point in DayZ. The balance between New Survivors and Veteran Survivors. The makes it so that Veteran survivors are harder to kill than fresh survivors. In my opinion the balance between the two should always be there. That is to say both are on equal... "getting killed" grounds.

Thanks for reading! I've just read your thread myself, and will post there shortly.

Regarding the balance between new and experienced characters, I'd say the idea is exactly that: to reward surviving longer with better skills. The idea is that a new character should avoid hostile players and train up invading towns and killing zombies, especially at night, when he's less exposed to both zombie and pvp dangers alike. Think of it as being "green" and then graduating to be either a bandit or a bandit-hunter once your skills are up. If you want to go pvp'ing outright, you could pick primary weapon, sidearm, and melee as your skills, and you'd be close to on par with the veterans.

Again, veterans could still die just as easily, since they're just as vulnerable to being shot, but new players without weapon skills would have a harder time hitting them. It would take a few tries, but once you got a character going, you'd be more and more involved with him, and the character would be more than a position and a backpack full of gear; he'd have filled a role, and then grown into the ideal survivor. The resistance skill is mostly based on a pet peeve of mine about how much these guys need to eat and drink in a single day. They're worse than newborn babies! A fresh survivor should be able to adapt and hold out longer (all the while even the base hunger/thirst levels should be toned down. maybe at 30% it would be the same as now, and then improve gradually to last at least double what it currently does)

Now this is a somewhat more personal, but I personally do not like the idea of picking something from the start, as in the "background" of your character. Sure you were obviously someone else before the plague, but that should be reflected in your actions, not in your starting loadout. This is why I'm against classes or loadout features. Although it would help with people grouping up it would not fit into the idea of DayZ. Again, this point is pretty opinionated.

Yea, about the loadout, it could be easily ignored. Just custom-choose the skills and have everyone start with the bandage and flashlight. It's just a brainstorm, and I want to see if it could work, as it adds to the game's color, it could better appeal to each player's tastes in gameplay

Other than that a lot of your ideas are extremely similar to mine. It's like your inside my head O_o. I especially like the throwback to the fallout 1/2 skill system. I like percentages... I laughed at how mean your medicine and survival skills are. I can only imagine the river of tears as people fail to use that morphine.

Yea, I just imagine myself in that position. I'd suffer a lot to gut and cook an animal for the first time. Also, medicine would not just involve applying a shot, I see the morphine injection as an abstraction for fixing a broken bone, and the blood transfusion as a full-on surgery (extracting bullets, sewing up gaping wounds, etc).

[BabylonUSArmy 21]

I like the idea of your character becoming more efficient/proficient with each day survived. There wouldn't be "classes", but the longer you survive, the more effective your character becomes. Say, for instance, as you survive for successive days, your cardio improves, allowing you to catch your breath and acquire a target more quickly. You can hold your breath longer while aiming. You become much less likely to enter a panicked state when fighting zombies. Your chance of becoming infected drops. You become better at sneaking and zombies have a harder time detecting you.

These are just a few examples, and I think this adds an element of progression and reward without going overboard.

[takfar@gmail.com 24]

Ok well i tried, going over the skills again in more detail...

weapons

I do not like the accuracy, as again that makes no sense, it is a player skill it should not be controlled by some arbitrairy number, this goes for all weapons basically.. the 'reload' time on weapons makes some sense though.

Accuracy would still mostly depend on the weapon and the player. You've probably noticed, however, that the character's hands shake when aiming, especially when zoomed in. Someone who never fired a gun would suffer from unsteady hands, from the weapon's knockback, and the general operation of the gun. Again, the idea is to have slight, not game-breaking differences, between a novice and an experienced player. Go into the woods, shoot a few cans, and you should be good to go. Weapon skills should be one of the fastest-climbing ones, especially given that practicing it spends ammo and makes noise.

practical

these are pretty much also covered in my 'learning by doíng' thread, with the difference that people all start out at the same level...

The problem I find is that right now every survivor can shoot, run, sneak, cook, perform surgery and repair vehicles like the best in each field. Never a failure, never a delay. Sure you could have everyone start piss-poor on all of these and then go up from there, but if we're including a "character background" feature in the game, then each character should be good in at least a couple of these things.

physical

- endurance, i am fairly sure this will be added to the game, perma running just doesn't seem to fit in with DayZ

- stealth, this is some illogical rpg skill, and while i fully understand what you try to achief, an arbitrairy number here is just bad, this is a player skill and gaining 1/3 or 30% of an advantage for playing the game is just silly...

- Resistance, while i agree on the food situation, you do need to realize that food & water are two driving forces in the game, they are set up on short cycles so every player encounters them. Also, a human just needs calories and moisture, and you need a certain amount of it, you may be able to fight your hunger/thirst better than the next guy, but you will both still die of dehydration/starvation at the same time...

On stealth, again: people should start sneaking at night or on calmer places, and only later move on to crowded cities and daytime raids. Resistance: having it higher is just a bonus so that experienced characters can focus on other areas of the game, mainly banditry or bandit-hunting, after having passed the basic survival phase (think of it as "the walking dead": early on, they're scavenging Atlanta for food and guns, later, they're managing communities instead). As it stands now, a new player can barely walk 5 km without dying of thirst. Either the counter has to be higher or there should be other ways to drink/eat without depending on canteens and wood/knife/matches.

Please god will people stop suggesting skill trees, character progression, levelling up and so on. It really does miss the point of what makes DayZ unique. Remember, that's what brought you here to start with. A unique experience. Nothing you've suggested is unique, it's all been done a million times before (and suggested on here even more).

Eh. Maybe you should just stop caring about these suggestions, then? If people are suggesting it, it's because they want it. If they're ever implemented, you could stick to playing the current version. If they're not, we'll play it all the same. Furthermore, I don't see how adding mechanics would make Day Z any less "unique". It'd still be a survival simulator, only it'd be even deeper. Besides, if you'd read my suggestion you'd see there's nothing about "leveling up" here. It's just making the players work so they can achieve the level of knowledge they start with, in the current version, thus encouraging group play and creating more attachment to the characters. Right now, a character in Day Z is nothing more than a walking pile of loot; if he dies and you manage to recover all the stuff from he's body, you're basically playing the same guy.

The high risk of the game is why, I believe, everyone just starts out on an equal footing as far as the character's 'capability' is concerned. Which, honestly, I don't know how anyone can take the character for an ultra-capable genius. Just about anyone who isn't an useless lump (The same type that is quickly culled by the zombie apocalypse) can manage to survive some span of time into the zombie apocalypse. Through luck, skill or simple resources. Doesn't mean they're unstoppable badasses or anything since, uh, an unstoppable genius badass would probably have the ability to at least slow a zombie down long enough to escape it on open ground. Or defend themselves to some extent without a weapon. Or not freeze to death up on a mountain slope in the night. Or be able to improvise some method to stop bleeding, fix a broken bone...

You'd be surprised to know how many experienced trekkers have died of exposure in the woods. Or how many limbs have been lost to an improvised "leg-fixing" surgery. Do you think any useless lump could bring a person who's been shot near to death back to full health? Because anyone in the game can do that right now, as simple as bloodbag-right click. Again, I'm aiming at survival narratives we have grown used to seeing. People dying of simple infections, groups needing the skills of a medic (hell, a veterinarian will do) in order to save a companion's life.

The game is about the mere mortal, pitting player versus player. Your skill rewards you with better equipment, possibly affiliations and ultimately a longer life. Nothing more. Besides, new players have to struggle just to find a crappy gun to fend off their peers and, later, bandits. Why pit them against a character that not only has a tremendous advantage of resources(supplies, weapons, allies) but also a sharp advantage in their survival skills? It doesn't work and, I think, it's too harsh a punishment toward skilled and more casual players than it is the hardcore who just want to or simply can sink more time in. Trust me, it's better this way.

I don't disagree with this point. It'd be harsher on new characters. I still think having character progression would make the game more interesting, and survival even more rewarding.

TL;DR - Fukufukufukufukufukufukufukufukufukufuku

Lololololol

Edited July 15, 2012 by takfar

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

On stealth, again: people should start sneaking at night or on calmer places, and only later move on to crowded cities and daytime raids ... *snip* ... As it stands now, a new player can barely walk 5 km without dying of thirst. Either the counter has to be higher or there should be other ways to drink/eat without depending on canteens and wood/knife/matches.

So if my mom tells me to go to bed at 22:00h i can never play this game? or if lucky on a high ping server, having to deal with lag as well (not that i have my mom around telling me how late i should goto bed, but for a large part of the world it will apply) ... and as i see you talking about hunger and thirst, by making it harder for people to sneak around they won't even be able to access a can of beans unless they play at night ...

I think sticking your foot down and holding onto your beliefs can be a positive and good thing to do, but at some point it just being stubborn, and one usually notices this when a person starts to argue with their own proposals, realy take a step back, think about what some of these things would mean for new players for longer living players and for the game as a whole... if you just play the game you will automatically learn YOURSELF how to sneak everywhere, and as you get better at the game there shouldn't be a +1 mechanic that amplifies you getting better at it, atleast not in regards to stealth which is like 40% of the game ... so please part of putting those ideas up here must have been to get feedback and if some of your ideas didn't seem to work to then adjust them or change them or just scrape them and move on to the next ... if it's just to get praises and ignore any feedback, then... well i'm not sure what to say here...

And in a survival game there should not be a moment where surviving is easier, it's already damned easy when you found those 4 items (hatched, matches, huntingknife, canteen(s)) atleast for as long as animals don't run or fight back. The 'fight' for water&food is always the driving force, it still is behind everything we do in life (except for maybe passing it on). You may not notice it untill you get into a situation where you can't just go to the grocerystore to get your stuff and they lock off your water because you didn't pay the bills, but realy, everything you do is to be able to eat and drink, the rest is just luxery...

Edited July 15, 2012 by L0GIN

[takfar@gmail.com 24]

I think sticking your foot down and holding onto your beliefs can be a positive and good thing to do, but at some point it just being stubborn, and one usually notices this when a person starts to argue with their own proposals, realy take a step back, think about what some of these things would mean for new players for longer living players and for the game as a whole... if you just play the game you will automatically learn YOURSELF how to sneak everywhere, and as you get better at the game there shouldn't be a +1 mechanic that amplifies you getting better at it ... so please part of putting those ideas up here must have been to get feedback and if some of your ideas didn't seem to work to then adjust them or change them or just scrape them and move on to the next ... if it's just to get praises and ignore any feedback, then... well i'm not sure what to say here...

Don't worry, I'll be keeping my initial ideas in place for the records, but I'll add everyone's considerations to the original post. It's easier to keep track of suggestions this way. Besides, I'm not stuck to any of those beliefs, I'm debating the pros and cons.

Edited July 15, 2012 by takfar

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

Ok, i can live with that, hope i didnt come across to harsh though, some of these things were fairly good, some aspects of it not so much, i have that with my ideas all the time, you learn addapt and overcome and usually end up with a better suggestion because of it. And one of the hardest things is being critical about your own ideas, esp when you put a lot of time into them. Best is to never see them as your new love, see them more as a first date, perhaps you can call eachother again, and improve your relationship work on it improve things, etc, but sometimes you just have to part and move on, as its just not working out ;)

[takfar@gmail.com 24]

Sure! The idea is to get this big lump of fresh ideas and craft it into something better. Added most of the opinions to the original post, still accepting new ideas and critique. Added some questions, myself, which other posters could help to solve.

[Zera_Grey 28]

As I said on another skill thread it is fine if it doesn't force solo players to group against their will. If I get hurt I would need to call a medic, the minute i do that bandits know where I am. I feel forcing people into a specific role means that those who prefer a solo style of occasional contact at more of a disadvantage. most of these can be environment based not player based effects so here is my opinion on the points you gave above.

now melee should not by altered if you smack zombie with an hatchet it hit no if ands or buts. you can't have a hit or miss if you face the guy and hit him square in the chest. firearms as well if you aim and you are on the target you hit it in real life if you aim at a target correctly you will hit them. even if you never shot a guy before it doesn't mean you can't figure it out quickly. players hands shaking the first few times, if gun has quick back you can get hurt first few shots. but aiming should be completely on the player not game mechanics. some people naturally can't hit the side of a barn so punishing them more just discourages them from interacting with other or even trying the game/mod.

the endurance not a completely bad idea but the twitchy zombies are way to fast. it put new players at higher risks because they not only have no gun or a crappy gun with little ammo but now they can't even escape the horde that usually follows. add that with the stealth and now not only can you not out run zombies if caught but its harder to sneak past them to attempt to get supplies.

the issues with sneaking is that footsteps don't get lower just because you sneak for a long time. I have no sneaking training but I can still move around with out being heard. if you stand up you are zombie bait stick low and move slow watch what you do and where you walk. it is completely player driven, what should be implemented is the surface you are walking on can effect the volume of your steps not the skill you have. if you are in an empty building your steps should echo if you stand ad run. if you walk on concrete the steps sound different the faster you move the louder you get. skill should have no effect the environment should be the deciding factor. when it comes to the backpack if you move slow enough and cautious enough it shouldn't be an issue, but it could be if you run around the faster you move the louder it gets.

you mental condition has nothing to do with physical condition like hunger and thirst. I do not think they need to change the hunger system because no one is on for long enough time hunger a thirst should be a constant problem in the game. the fact that it eventually is not an issue I feel should be changed. either by meat going bad or canned good spoiling, soda should not cover as much thirst since soda is not the best for hydrating in real life. water should evaporate over time if stored in a tent or stash. its not a skill to get less hungry/thirsty then someone else and feel can be solved by environment changes and item changes not adding skills.

survivalist skill harvesting berries is not a skill anyone and there mother could do it. if you harvest the only thing you need is to figure out whats is poisonous and what is not. having health issues and possible death due to eating bad berries/mushrooms/plants would eliminate the need for skills. if you can shoot a player you can shoot a cow. to harvest meat it should take time depending on the pray. that makes the player vulnerable to players and when harvesting large game you can only cut one steak off at a time. it takes less time to kill a rabbit skin it clean it and get meat then slicing meat off the cow. starting a fire with matches should be based on wind not player skill as whether it works or not. if it raining your fire goes out if not in a building or under cover. under cooking meat is far worse then over cooking in the real world. and assuming you have seen cooked meat before you can watch food and make sure it doesn't turn into a dried husk. taking time and learning how long to cook should be player based even if you have it where you leave meat on the fire you should have x amount of time before it is cooked and x amount of time before its a charred messed players would need to find out that time period. if you under cook meat chance of getting sick increases. finding water could fall into this category you could wind up with dysentery and or parasites.

medical is not a skill but basic knowledge bandage a bleed, take painkillers to stop pain, antibiotics to deal with a cold, still not sure how morphine is better for broken bones but i would think a person would figure it out. most people who are most likely to survive an apocalypse would know how to jimmy-rig a splint and stitch a wound or sew. having things like addiction of ill healed limbs resulting in lasting health issues could add to the game and make medical a lot harder. it would mean even if you survive you still are effected by the damage. scars being added, burns and the chance of infection not just zombie infection could all add more to the game. making it a skill limits game play people want to survive on there own with out advertising they are wounded when looking for health. adding natural harvest able plants should be made available as well to be identified by players and used. people can who are able to survive are able to figure things out juts because you never removed a bullet doesn't mean you can't figure it out with out repeating it. if you want to get that technical you would have to add a surgical kit which hold tools like scalpels, tweezers and whatever else they use in surgery (which isn't actually a bad idea).

engineering this one is iffy for me certain things should not need much thought and could be passed as easy to figure out. the car is harder if the engine is intact should be easy to figure out how to install glass, putting on tires are easy fixing transmission takes special knowledge not sure if it should be skill or random chance of success. you could get partial builds and stuff which takes extra items to complete but skills are iffy subject which is why if you can avoid it it is for the best in a sandbox where the environment should have just as much impact as the player. as I said still iffy for this one but it put my opinion out there.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Zera_Grey

[Jesterj 0]

I like the idea about character evolution in its essence but i do not agree with the idea of making one character better than the other.

Dayz is an open world mmo game, with pvp on always, this means that you cannot choose not to pvp.

To make characters who have been playing longer stronger than the new ones by simple game mechanics would be a major drawback for new players and would result in a gradually more difficult game for the new players that are to come.

The second problem about raising skills is that it should not be impossible to survive as a new player, but neither should it be too easy for an older character to survive. That would mean a very difficult balancing of skills which would probably give more problems than good to the game.

Thir of all, if you give characters skills, the main objective when you get nto the game, would be to raise these skills as fast as possible, which would probably make the survival part of the game less important.

But i do think that some kind of character progression would make you more carefull, since a character which you are more personal involved with (even in a game) would be a harder loss than one which you just need to invest the some time in again. There is need of something that makes every character unique so that the new character isnt just a copy of the old one.