Learning by doing - the alternative to classes & professions

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

I am realy hoping more people can contribute to this thread by identifing more 'skillsets' within the game that do NOT easily transfer over from IRL skills, but would lend themselves to a 'hidden' progress system. Or provide more examples of how progression within the already identified skillsets could take shape. Heck even 'you should exclude this skill would help out'!

So, a lot of threads have been active lately (i saw atleast 4) about a class/profession/traits/perks system for DayZ. And while a part of the community seems to like this kind of system, there is also a large part of the community that doesn't want to see put '+1 to running' to run faster, in the game. I am of the last catagory, there are tons of games out there already doing this... and while i hate to say it, if you realy like those kind of games go find one that has it, infact it be hard NOT to find a game with some +1 system in it ... BUT !

There is a system that I could live with, and best to describe it is 'learning by doing'. It would be a hidden +1 system that is influenced by nothing but a players actions. A system like this doesn't have some tree showing you are lvl20 in hunting, nor would it let you choose to put points in hunting yourself, you won't have to find books, you just play the game. And the more you do something, the better you get at it. Given ofcourse the thing you do is 'suited' for a system like this! (see a list below of the things that you as a player can get better at yourself, and where a +1 system doesn't make any sense).

As a general rule of thumb i have the following in mind: each character would start at a 30% proficiency level, through their actions they can gain a 50% proficiency level fairly fast, the climb from 50-75% takes twice as long, and the 75-100% proficiencly can be smeared out over a long period of time. These percentages are not your 'fail/success' factors, but just a way to show the overall skill level in each skillset. While i personally don't endorce it, various people have expressed they want to determain their own 'starting level'. Aka, they want to start off their character with their own choice in 'skills'. I think a system like proposed here could work that way, each player could get a certain amount of points to spend in each catagory, and these points could related to the aproximate 20-40% starting level proficiency. As such a small starting advantage could be gained, but always at the cost of another skillset, and never limiting the character to develope all skill, nor get an added bonus at max 'level'.

Hunting/Gutting:

Gutting is a thing you have to learn by doing, and there are definately risks involved (spoiling the meet). Every player would start out with the ability to gut an animal, given they have a hunting knife, with the following restrictions:

- A player starts out with getting 1 or 2 pieces of meat, with a chance to get more depending on the size of the animal.

- A player has the chance to spoil the meat (open up the guts and get feaces over it)

As you gut more animals, the game should register this with a +1 counter, and after gutting say X animals the chances of getting an extra piece of meat go up, and the chance of spoiling meat go down. Untill at some point the chance to spoil meet is very small (say 95% as you can always make a mistake), and you get the maximum amount of pieces of meet from an animal.

*!* extra: if arma has the option to track where you 'hit' an animal when you kill it, this should factor in with the chances that you spoil the meat when shooting. That would realy start to distinguish a hunter from a killer. The animal could have 3 hitboxes, head, torso, belly. And hitting the animal in the head would give 0% chance on the meat being spoiled; hitting the torso a 30% chance; hitting the belly would give a 80+% chance of spoiling the meat. Once the meat is spoiled it doesn't matter how well you gut it, it will be spoiled. The texture of the meat should give hints to the status of the meat. This to add a bit of IRL knowledge of killing animals for consumption, and player awareness in regards to the meat they get from the animal.

Medical Assistance:

Applying first aid is something you mostly have to learn by doing, and there are definately things that can go wrong. Every player would start off with the ability to perform the following medical assistances/first aid, but with some restrictions:

Bandaging/stitching*/Tourniquets*:

Applying a bandage/stitching*/tourniquet* (* = see 'full medical' thread) is something you would learn, and there are definately things that can go wrong, like failing to apply it correctly or hurting the player. Every player would start out with the ability to stop bleeding, but:

- There is a chance that you fail to apply the tourniquet correctly, you would regain the tourniquet to try again.

- A bandage may fail to stop the bleeding, you would have to apply another.

- Stitches may be to loose failing to stop the bleeding, you would have to try again with a new thread.

- All these may have a chance to give a shoot of pain to the player, causing them to shout in pain, or give them 'mild pain' as a result. (see 'full medical for different states of pain')

- If wounds would heal over time, then all these sollutions could have a 'durability' linked to them, which could also depend on what the wounded player does during this time. This could mean that your sollution to the bleeding only works so long, and thus the wound may start to bleed again.

The more sollutions to bleeding you apply, the game should register this with a +1 counter. After applying say X sollutions the chance of failing applying them should go down (to say 95% as you can always make a mistake). The chances of causing pain to the player would go down (to say 95% as you can always make a mistake), the chances to cause end result pain should go down aswell, except for the tourniquet which is said to hurt no matter what. And the durability of your sollution should go up, giving a bigger chance that the wound doesn't start bleeding again, regardless of what the player does during the healing time.

*!* extra: it may be extra cool to have indicators for different kinds of wounds, cuts, gashes, artery bleeds. each giving a different bleeding animation on the victim aswell, and have the various sollutions relate in effectiveness (chance to success/durability of the choosen sollution) with the kind of wound it is. Cuts would just need a bandage to prevent infections (other sollution work as well), gashes would need stitches and a bandage to prevent infection, just a bandage would have a higher chance to fail), artery bleeds would need a tourniquet and bandage. f/e!

Bloodbags:

Putting needles in somebody is a thing you need to learn by doing, and there are different risks involved (putting a hole in somebody that hurts). Every player would start out with the ability to apply bloodpacks, but:

- When you start out you 'only' administer say 500HP for a pack, with a chance to get 0-300HP more.

- You have a chance to 'hurt' people by sticking a needle in them, causing pain.

The more bloodpacks you apply, the game should register this with a +1 counter, and after applying say X bloodpacks the base amount of blood you administer goes up, and the chance you apply more increases, while the chances of hurting people go down. At some point the chance of hurting somebody is minimal (say 95%, but you can always make a mistake) and you administer the maximum amount of blood from a pack, which would be 1500HP (based upon 1,5pints of blood in a bag as per the Full medical suggestion thread).

Administering Injections:

Anything related to administering medication through injections (methadon, anti-viral/fungal/bacterial/dotes, epipens). While i am not entirely sure if this is worth it, still using anything with needles takes some practice (though little) and you can hurt people or even mess up administering. Every player would start out with the ability to injection, but:

- when you start out there may be a chance you only inject a certain amount of medication, causing only a certain amount of benefit to the player (f/e a 20% chance of epipens reducing unconcious state to 50% of the duration instead of fully awakening, or methadon only giving a % of the time it relieves pain)

- You have a chance to hurt people by sticking a needle in them, causing pain.

The more needles you inject (including bloodbag needles), the game should register this with a +1 counter, and after injecting a player X times, your injected medications work more effectively, and the chance to cause pain reduces.

Setting casts/splints:

Dealing with broken bones is something you can't just learn out of a book, you need hands on experience. And various things can go wrong, mostly hurting a player realy bad (or even setting a bone wrong leaving a person with crooked legs, or weak legs prone to break again). Every player would start out with the ability to set casts/splints, given you have them, with the following restrictions:

- You have a chance to fail setting the bone, your cast/splint will return to your inventory and you can try again.

- Given broken bones heal over time, your cast/splint will have a certain durability related to your skill level, and 'breaking' of the cast/splint will also depend on the players actions with the fix.

- Given broken bones heal over time, your cast/splint will have a chance to cause 'shoots of pain' due to the quality of your setting.

- During setting you have a chance to cause pain to the player with the broken (bones)

As you set more legs with splint or cast, the game registers this with a +1, as you increase you skill level your fixes will fail less often, the durability of your casts/splints will increase, as will the quality, and you have less chance hurting the player (upto 95% as you can always make a mistake).

*!* EXCLUDED from medical: taking painkillers, applying heatpacks, coldpacks.

Mechanical Engineering:

Fixing a vehicle is not something you just do from a book, its something you learn by doing mostly, and there are different risks involved, like forgetting to connect the fuel line and setting yourself on fire, or not tightening a wheel well enough and loosing it. Every player would start out with the abitlity to fix any vehicle, given they have the tools, with the following restrictions:

- You may fail to repair something, you get the part back and have to try again..

- You may break the part, and thus fail the repair, you have to get another part..

- The repair only last 'that' long, aka. having base durability.

The more broken down things you repair, the game should register this with a +1 counter, and after fixing X things the chance of failing a repair goes down, the chance of breaking parts will go down (but you can always have a dodgy part, also see extra), and your fixes will be of a better quality, so the car is less likely to break down again.

*!* extra: Components used in repair could have stats of their own that influence your chances of successfull repairs (mainly the part breaking and the durability of the fix). These could be 100% 'as good as new', 70% partially rusty, 30% totally rusted. These parts would not come with a clear description of their stats, but their textures would clearly distinguish from eachother. This includes a bit of IRL commen sense to fixing vehicles, being able to both distinquish these parts and understanding how a fully rusted part is likely to last shorter than an 'as good as new' part.

*!* Electrical & Structural/Civil Engineering *!*:

While both are not yet in the game, i think it's fairly reasonable to assume these will be in the game eventually. Generators have already been announced, which opens up ways to include electrical engineering, and we all know that base building will eventually be in the game as a form of 'end-game', which opens up ways to include structural/civil engineering. I personally think there are various ways that restoring functionality to certain buildings could make use of both electrical as well as structural engineering skillsets. Details are currently obviously hard to give, but these two skillsets could well follow a similar setup as Mechanical Engineering, as well as benefit from the mentioned 'extra'.

List of EXCLUDED 'things'

These are all things you as a player will learn yourself by doing it, you will find out where to shoot for the quickest kill, which inclination or bumb you shouldn't take while driving, or when not to make a 360 in a helicopter. There is no +1 system for this, except for the one build in, in your own body & mind!

- Health Points

- Shooting guns, aka. accuracy

- Driving any vehicle

- Flying any vehicle as long as controlls are fairly 'authentic'

Edited August 9, 2012 by L0GIN

[doom4mr 135]

with average life time of 35 minutes you will not have time to learn...

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

Hehe, that is what will seperate the weak from the strong, and even more so, think about perma loosing a character that has maxed out something, the dedicated hunter of the group f/e ;) ...

But don't be mistaken though, you SHOULD be able to do everything anyone else can do, just if the other person has done it 1000x because they survived, they should be better at it ?

Edited July 14, 2012 by L0GIN

[Ultenth 12]

with average life time of 35 minutes you will not have time to learn...

That lifetime is a bit wrong though, because it includes all the players who after they die, respawn like 10+ times to get to a spawn they like. It definitely takes a huge chunk out of the time survived length. As well as new players that start running where they spawn, aggro a zombie on the coast, and die right away. I've only been playing about a week, and since my first day or two to figure things out, I've only died twice, so I imagine truely veteran players can easily last weeks between deaths.

[Quaby 93]

That will just make it super-brutal to people who just got the game. They barely know the game as-is, and then they wouldn't be able to heal their nearly dead mate without a fear of killing him, and having to burn through dozens of bloodpacks just to get him back to health. Vehicles are hard enough to fix without having a chance to watch your helicopter-rotor assembly just break as you repair it. My big problem with this is this; you aren't getting punished because you did something wrong, you are getting punished because you haven't done it 5000 times. You are getting buttfucked by something you cannot control at all without getting a human pincushion to practice transfusions on. And it really wouldn't add anything to the game except for the feeling of, " please heal him, please heal him, please heal himmmmmm......SHIT!!!".

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

A lot of people rely on catching game and cooking to restore health, as visits to a hospital have a high chance of reducing blood levels to zero ;)

And i said 'pain' not puncture somebody to give them an artery bleed. Though that may be funny, you go to administer blood and you puncter an artery and give him bleeding to boot. Guess that give you a moment to 'practice' your bandaging skills :D

And yes it may well suck having something break on you, but if I take you as you are now, to a helicopter repair shop, what do you think will happen? think you will actually be able to repair something or will you break more than was broken before i let you loose in the porselin shop ?

[Lanceo90 5]

I like the general idea of this.

There needs to be skills. DayZ is much more of an RPG than a shooter(if you disagree, just leave and go play Left 4 Dead now). Obviously the debate is how to do it. I like the idea of this progression from doing actions in the game. Since a system is already in place for doing them it's just a matter of tracking how many times and applying a skill system in it.

Obviously you have to balance not making it too hard for noobies, and not letting long time players get to OP. But it's important to continue letting characters grow. Honestly I have a good primary weapon, a good secondary, an ALICE pack full of medical supplies, food, and drink. I really don't have a reason to play now other than to log in and get new food for when my guy runs out. We need more "end game" content other than killing zombies and tracking days. A good step on getting more of that is skills. Anyway, onto balancing.

Medical Ability Growth:

At start you can: Apply Bandages, Apply Pain Killers.

After X number of doing that, you are rewarded with being able to do them faster and unlock.

Mid Level: Apply Epi-Pen, Apply Morphine

After X number of doing that, you are rewarded with being able to do them faster and unlock.

High Level: Perform Blood Transfusions

After X number of doing that, you are rewarded with being able to do them faster and unlock.

(???EXTRA???)

Max Level: CPR capable(can bring someone back to life if you get to them in under 30 seconds), skin changes to a doctor.

Ok now here's my reasoning. In my life, the only things on this list I've ever done is used painkillers and bandages. I'd think a majority of the population would be about the same. Now, epi-pens are kinda simple but what's to indicate the instructions on it aren't worn out? You'll need a bit more medical knowledge to do it. I've never heard of morphine auto injectors so I have no idea, but I imagine it's simliar to the epi-pen, I think you need a little bit of medical knowledge to do it. Blood transfusions, this seems really difficult to me; maybe I've watched to much TV but it seems like well practiced doctors even have trouble with it, it takes skill. Now this extra one I added would require extra work, but would really make someone proud of their achievement. They get a doctor skin and can save people from death if they get there quickly enough, which usually a skilled doctor can do.

This doesn't hurt noobs too much, after all you only get bandages and painkillers anyway until you go into a hospital usually, and getting to a hospital is really hard for noobs anyway. It doesn't make old players OP, they just get access to all the equipment that is already available, and can apply it a little faster. Sure, if max level was in place they can save a fallen comrade, but they have limited time to do it. Whoever downed the first player could just take down the doctor as well if the death was caused by a player. If it was by zombie, even better, why should a experienced team member fall to a lowly zombie.

This is just the medical example, other professions would follow similar steps. Starting level, medium level, high level, and maybe a max level. Max level would give them a skin to let players know the person has done something cool. Each level makes the previous level's actions take less time. The max level ability is really nice, but is balanced enough to not totally break the game.

I would really love an even bigger system than this but I know there are a lot of people who don't want one. I really don't know why. I remember one of my history teachers telling us that our path out of the stone age and into civilization is learning to specialize. In a zombie apocalypse we're back in the stone age, if we hope to rebuild society, we need to specialize again.

ADDED: Also, rather than totally restricting higher level abilities(except hte max level one) make it just have a failure chance if you are not to that level yet.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Lanceo90

[paradox. 12]

I like the hunting idea "ALOT". But i kinda dislike how the blood bag wouldn't give them all their health back. I like how the more you did it the less likly it was to hurt them(like would health them to 11,000 blood or 10,500 from hurting them.) I also dislike the engineering a little. I think that when you start off it takes you alot longer to put on tires ect.

Overall though good thinking.

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

@Lance, well locking people out of using something is something i personally would be against, esp. in the current broken bone situation (it having no alternatives to morphine). I much rather give people a chance to 'fail' at something (f/e starting at 50/50) to then reduce this fail chance over one's lifetime to say (98% - as anyone can always make a mistake) ... and yes even trained nurses can, i know so when one took a bloodsample and left me with a painfull arm and a large hammorage on my arm for a week...

So if i were to take your 'list' of medical actions i would assign a succes % to each, and if something has to option to partially succeed that can be taken into account too something like:

- painkillers (100%, as you just take them :P )

- bandage 80% success, 20% chance of not stopping bleeding, over X uses of bandages goes up to 98% succes 2% failure.

- epen, 60% success, 30% chance to reduce unconcious state by 50% duration (maybe sliding scale), 10% chance to fail. which over X uses increases to 90% success, 8% chance to reduce unconcious state by 80%, 2% chance to fail.

- Morphine, 50% success, 30% chance to reduce broken state to fractured state, 20% chance to fail, after X uses increases to, 90% success, 8% chance to reduce to fractured state, 2% chance to fail.

- Bloodbag, 30% chance to heal for 100%, 50% chance to heal for 50% of the bloodbag content, 20% chance to heal for 20% of content. After X applies, 80% chance to heal for 100%, 10% chance to heal for 50% of content, 8% chance to heal for 50% of content.

- Bloodbag pain, 40% chance to succeed, 50% chance to set the 'victim' in a pain state (stopped with painkillers obviously), 10% chance to give the victim bleeding (hitting an artery instead of a vain). After X applies, 80% chance to succeed, 18% chance to induce pain, 2% chance to apply bleeding (if possible 'if applied during the night')

This way nobody is cut off from applying anything and getting out of w/e medical emergency, while at the same time there is room to grow, and in case of team play, there is a real reason to assign somebody a certain 'role' as they would benefit from 'training' their skills.

@Paradox, I altered the the medic 'line' a bit just above here, does this look better? (i'll change the OP at some point) ... what is it that you don't like about engineering, if you can give more specifics it's easier for others to suggest changes and improve on the innitial idea :)

Edited July 15, 2012 by L0GIN

[Zera_Grey 28]

people can just choose to be a medic for a group, choose be a hunter, and choose to be a bandit/survivor. instead of forcing people to "learn" certain skills choose what you want to play as. If i want to be a jack of all trades who is good at everything then I will be that. instead of restricting the players use the environment to make things harder. its an open world the environment should play a bigger role then what the player can do successfully. add restriction on your game play if you want more immersion play like you are the character you don't know how to fix a car in real life then don't fix a car in the game. if you don't know how to cut meat properly off a kill don't hunt. if you can't shoot well in real life avoid firefights or use an ax. it is a sandbox the limiting factor should be the play style of the individual and the environment not add things that force you to lean to either grouping or throwing one play style away for another.

EDIT: skills for me or class specialization is pointless and not everything takes time or repetitive actions to learn.

I'm 95% with building/rebuilding or taking things apart should be learned. things like bandaging taking painkillers not so much even with out instructions both can be utilized with little to no knowledge of proper procedure. a system like this needs to be worked to not treat everything universally. some action take no learning but a little thought. altering the environment and objects would allow for the run of the mill jack or all trades type of player to still struggle to survive. even if its not visible if people are aware they get better by doing something they are going to try to max it out as quickly as possible to keep themselves on top. so in the end a disadvantage to learning system occurs when friend start shooting each other to max out their healing to the point where they can't fail. and don't underestimate people though not in a game but real life we had a human v.s zombie game where four friends shoot each other to find the original zombie and thought they should still be alive because we never said they couldn't do that. people exploit anything they can and if they can shoot their friend heal him and repeat to gain skills or "knowledge" they will do it. if they can just kill a bunch of animals, chop the meat and repeat they will do it for the "knowledge" thats my issue with any skill/profession system and this still falls into that mold.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Zera_Grey

[BabylonUSArmy 21]

I made a somwhat similar suggestion in a different thread yesterday. I 100% agree that if there are going to be any "skills" or "perks", learning by doing is the way to do it. It sidesteps the whole "best class" problem that will inevitably arise from other systems. My suggestion was slightly more forgiving in that with each sucessive day survived, some basic things about your character naturally improve, such as:

Improved cardio, where you recover from running quicker and are able to aim accurately faster.

Reduced chance to panic when fighting zeds.

Faster bandaging/application of meds.

Lowered chance to become infected.

Become better at sneaking.

Etc. Not overpowered and everyone would have access to the same perks given they survive. Of course, there could only be so much benefit from these perks. It's not like if you survived 2 weeks you could instantly bandage or recover from running or be invisible to zombies. But it gives you something to work towards and rewards smart gameplay.

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

@Zera_Grey, the idea is not to limit somebody by an arbitrairy choice made, it's to limit everybody and give everybody a chance to grow, and while yes it does give groups a small advantage by being able to split up tasks and thus grow a bit faster, by no means does (or should this) limit a solo player from becomming Rambo/MacGiver/BearGrylz if they survive long enough to do so.

The benefit of this promoting teamwork to split up tasks is exactly what can enrich this game, every interview i saw Rocket talk in he mentioned he was looking for things to enhance teamplay, well this is 'one' option to do so... not saying it's the best or the only, just that it is one option...

Another thing this does is that it increases investment in a character, and thus the increase the scare of dieing, it up's the stake of the game the longer you survive, and in a game where a lot of people 'complain' they can be fully loaded in 20min, a learning by doing system will mean there is a lot of room to improve after those innitial 20min. It also ads atleast a 'mid-game' to DayZ, not so much an end-game...

Yet another thing it does is add some 'authenticity' or 'believability' to the game in regards to being Rambo/MacGiver/BearGrylz from the moment you spawn, as you are not, you are mostly just you, some civilian that happens to end up on the zombie apocalypse, hoping to survive long enough to increase one's skills in order to thrive...

And lastly, it's the least evil of all the suggestions popping up for classbased play, and as i said in the OP, i would not like to see classbased play in DayZ, there are other games that do that (well it's hard to even find a game that DOESN'T use classes/professions etc). So by having the least evil, while perhaps the most harsh (every new spawn starts at the same level for everything), all those suggestions can just be answered with "there is learning by doing" in DayZ, discussion largely over ;) :P

And absolutely last, i also think all of these 'skills' can just be hidden from the player, there is no real need to display somewhere you are lvl100 in something, as that just introduces that RPG 'carrot on a stick' behavior, people 'farming' etc. If you hide all these things then people subtly notice they get better at some things, while never knowing exactly how good they are, how much better they can become. Which is exactly like it is in real life... (unless your ego is very large, in which case you will always over estimate your abilities)

Edited July 15, 2012 by L0GIN

[Zera_Grey 28]

@login I edited my first post as well to clear up my disapproval of system skill/profession/learning systems. sorry for not clearing things up it is just me having a bad day.

not everything is learning oriented not saying its perfect but if it takes you twenty tries to figure something out well enough to be effective you probably aren't going to survive. like bandaging it is something you can get the hang of quickly while blood transfusions will take time or always has a chance of being wrong. if you have to learn to do something you don't have prior knowledge.

I actually don't have a real problem for engineering having a learn by doing since it is more of a something to do then a necessity to survival. you don't have to build a car or heli but you can, same for fences and stuff like that. plus not a lot of people can figure out how to build things easily.

some things that people try to add as a skill or something you learn overtime can be added by changing the environment and not the player. in games it is always what can the player do how do we work the character not how does the environment restrict the character or add to the character.

Edited July 15, 2012 by Zera_Grey

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

@Zera_Grey, well i try to do both, like the 'extra' for hunting in regards to where to shoot/hit an animal. Now currently the animals are all stationary stupid things, but once they become more responsive sneaking up and good aim become realy important, but on the other hand, you may realy need that flesh, so taking a shot when the animal makes a run for it, now has a risk attached to it...

As far as medicine go, well it's hard to incorperate the environment into this, and the other thing is, things that are linked to the environment shouldn't be compensated by a +1 stat on the character, atleast that is what i think. Taking that hunting again, i do not think you should have less chance on spoiling meat on a shot from behind just because you have lvl50 in hunting, you may be able to have a bigger chance to retrieve an unspoiled piece of meet from an animal you shot from behind though, as you likely know how to gut an animal and how to avoid any spoiled sections...

So in that regards i pretty much always end up with things i character would learn, as things in the environment is something a player has to deal with himself, i do not think a +1 system should make that easier. like accuracy for example...

But if you can give some example of what you like or don't like, that would help me better understand what you mean with 'changing the environment' instead of 'changing the player' ... :)

[Zera_Grey 28]

when I talk environment I include objects. these are my ideas that are just as effective as learning method and still have everyone one even playing field.

hunting:

hopefully the animal AI is improved as you said so they are more aware of the player. if an animal is shot in the side meat would have a higher chance of being spoiled. as you said this it I think it should depend on the placement of the shot entirely instead of the character. if you shoot in the side the animals code should say okay now meat retrieved will be tainted at a 75% chance during harvest. head shot animal code says .1% chance of meat being tainted. hit the leg animal it starts to limb or slows shot two legs it falls then shoot again. all chance are in the animal coding while still effect what the character retrieves from the animal.

medical:

bandages have

1% chance of being ineffective

14% chance of partially stopping bleed

85% chance of fully stopping bleed

painkillers have

0% chance of fail which would increase by .2% each time you take it

100% chance of working which would decrease by .2% each time it is taken

once fail and success are at a 50/50 ratio addiction occurs

morphine:

0% chance of fail will increase by .5% from each use

100% success which decreases by .5% for each use

once the ratio between ineffective and success is 40/60 addiction occurs

transfusion(blood pack):

.5% chance of hurting player

4.5% fail

35% 1/2 successful only gain 1/2 of what you normally would

45% 3/4 chance of success gain 3/4 of the blood you normally would

15% complete success full gain

antibiotics:

.5% chance ineffective

99.5% chance of success

chance of success decreases by .5% each use

resistance to antibiotics one 85% ineffective

ammonia;

100% successful but 5% chance of side effects like shaking, headaches, dizziness

(Don't build much) engineering.

depending on what your fixing put a percentage on the chance each part will successfully repair this means more items needed to repair because it can only get partial. this is not based on character but universal chance. even if you fix a car 1000 times you still have a chance of failing the same chance as the new player. no character can learn to build better but is more likely to have the material to continue the attempt unlike the new player.

sneaking:

walking in grass is different then walking on concrete the sound your steps make and the volume should be dependent on that. if you walk quickly you make more noise then moving slowly. closing a door should make noise alerting zombies close to it maybe a foot or two around the door.

food/water:

canned food should occasional be found spoiled and should spoil if left in your inventory for to long. water should be found tainted as well as clean. water in ponds/rivers/pumps/well should have a chance to get you sick. meat taken from animals should rot in your pack and attract wild predators possibly zombies.

to cook food which I never done so not sure how it works, but set up fire with wood matches and the like then possibly have a inventory type hud where you place the meat to cook so you are not venerable and you must judge how much time it takes to cook it. or have a percentage system where 15% chance of under cooking, 20% overcooking 10% chance of burning 55% cooked perfectly.

add infections and other sicknesses, add parasites like ticks, tape worms and vomiting. as has been done weather effects body heat wind effects shots, there should be chances of strong storms that can knock down trees blow away tents and damage vehicles.

change items spawns so that in certain buildings your more likely to find certain items. for example houses 25%chance to find empty tins, 30% chance to find food/drinks, 5% rare food items/drinks, 25% medical supplies, 15% small caliber weapons.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Zera_Grey

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

OK, while i do understand what you are saying, and i like various options, though some are a bit harsh, esp. the ones that reduce in effectiveness (then again some do make sense!) ... this totally negates the fact that atleast most humans would learn during their lifetime, and get better at things.

If you check the OP, i also put some of these things in, for atleast hunting (spoiling meat) & engineering (chances a part breaks). So i think both these things should eventually make up the system. Quite possibly an item can spawn with certain stats, and these feed into the system which also takes the players 'skill' into account.

[Quaby 93]

A lot of people rely on catching game and cooking to restore health, as visits to a hospital have a high chance of reducing blood levels to zero ;)

And i said 'pain' not puncture somebody to give them an artery bleed. Though that may be funny, you go to administer blood and you puncter an artery and give him bleeding to boot. Guess that give you a moment to 'practice' your bandaging skills :D

And yes it may well suck having something break on you, but if I take you as you are now, to a helicopter repair shop, what do you think will happen? think you will actually be able to repair something or will you break more than was broken before i let you loose in the porselin shop ?

However, people aren't totally incompetent at everything. everyone would have some sort of specialty, maybe it could be applied to survival situations. i.e. I know basic medial procedure since I picked up a bit of it in high school at an after-school medical meeting. So i know where to aim with a needle and how to revive someone and such. When you get into this level of realism, the little details that all factor in just make your head spin. Overall it is just easier to make everyone a-ok at everything-leave it the way it is. It'If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

[Zera_Grey 28]

@ login I just put examples numbers could be moved around but in real life things like resistance to antibiotics after over use makes you think maybe I can go with out it. or you avoid conflict because if you get addicted to pain killers morphine you either take it consistently or you go through withdrawal which puts you in danger. it makes people search more for food and put more effort into surviving then just leveling up or "learning".

as I said I do kinda agree engineering should be some sort of learning system or add a quality system where the first few things you make are quick to fall apart and can break after being exposed to the elements. the more you make things the better they work and the less likely to fall apart over time.

[Quaby 93]

when I talk environment I include objects. these are my ideas that are just as effective as learning method and still have everyone one even playing field.

hunting:

hopefully the animal AI is improved as you said so they are more aware of the player. if an animal is shot in the side meat would have a higher chance of being spoiled. as you said this it I think it should depend on the placement of the shot entirely instead of the character. if you shoot in the side the animals code should say okay now meat retrieved will be tainted at a 75% chance during harvest. head shot animal code says .1% chance of meat being tainted. hit the leg animal it starts to limb or slows shot two legs it falls then shoot again. all chance are in the animal coding while still effect what the character retrieves from the animal.

medical:

bandages have

1% chance of being ineffective

14% chance of partially stopping bleed

85% chance of fully stopping bleed

painkillers have

0% chance of fail which would increase by .02% each time you take it

100% chance of working which would decrease by .02% each time it is taken

once it is 50/50 addiction occurs

morphine:

0% chance of fail will increase by .5% from each use

100% success which decreases by .5% for each use

40/60 addiction

transfusion(blood pack):

.5% chance of hurting player

4.5% fail

35% 1/2 successful only gain 1/2 of what you normally would

45% 3/4 chance of success gain 3/4 of the blood you normally would

15% complete success full gain

antibiotics:

.5% chance ineffective

99.5% chance of success

chance of success decreases by .5% each use

resistance to antibiotics one 85% ineffective

epi pen;

100% successful but 5% chance of side effects like shaking

(Don't build much) engineering.

depending on what your fixing put a percentage on the chance each part will successfully repair this means more items needed to repair because it can only get partial. this is not based on character but universal chance. even if you fix a car 1000 times you still have a chance of failing the same chance as the new player. no character can learn to build better but is more likely to have the material to continue the attempt unlike the new player.

sneaking:

walking in grass is different then walking on concrete the sound your steps make and the volume should be dependent on that. if you walk quickly you make more noise then moving slowly. closing a door should make noise alerting zombies close to it maybe a foot or two around the door.

food/water:

canned food should occasional be found spoiled and should spoil if left in your inventory for to long. water should be found tainted as well as clean. water in ponds/rivers/pumps/well should have a chance to get you sick. meat taken from animals should rot in your pack and attract wild predators possibly zombies.

to cook food which I never done so not sure how it works, but set up fire with wood matches and the like then possibly have a inventory type hud where you place the meat to cook so you are not venerable and you must judge how much time it takes to cook it. or have a percentage system where 15% chance of under cooking, 20% overcooking 10% chance of burning 55% cooked perfectly.

add infections and other sicknesses, add parasites like ticks, tape worms and vomiting. as has been done weather effects body heat wind effects shots, there should be chances of strong storms that can knock down trees blow away tents and damage vehicles.

change items spawns so that in certain buildings your more likely to find certain items. for example houses 25%chance to find empty tins, 30% chance to find food/drinks, 5% rare food items/drinks, 25% medical supplies, 15% small caliber weapons.

Meat spoiling-You don't spoil meat when you shoot it, you just remove the bullet. You would lose meat by not being able to recover it because you gutted it wrong.

1.Bandages

-The numbers are good, but what would you mean by partially, just making you bleed slower?

2.Painkillers

-It is a mild generic painkiller, not an opiod or depressant. Have you ever heard of an ibuprofen addiction? That's basically what they are, so really should be no chance of addiction.

3.Morphine

-Morphine IS an opiod which is used for bullet wounds and other major injuries. However, the stat is WAY too high for addiction. People get injected with morphine all the time, and it is so close to impossible to develop an addiction on the first shot of morphine it isn't even worth mentioning. It isn't heroin, dude. Maybe 3% first shot, goes up as you use it.

4.Transfusions

-A chance to fail? "oops, i dropped all your blood....."????????

-You cannot damage someone with a needle without trying or being really stupid. All you have to know is aim for the vein. Use a rubber band.

-You either do it or you dont, there is no getting 1/2 of the blood. The only way you can fuck it up is fucking up the injection.

5&6 epi pens and antibiotics.

-You will get over most minor sicknesses, but the numbers are fine ;).

-Epi pens don't revive people. They are for allergies. Ammonia is for reviving people. Just put it next to their nose and BOOM!

Food

Most people can cook and judge when it is done effectively. I suck at cooking but the only thing I can really burn is eggs. I can tell when a steak is done.

Parasites

You only get tapeworms by eating undercooked tapeworm-infected meat. VERY unlikely. Ticks? Pick 'em off. They aren't really threatening anyway. Sure, some sicknesses would be cool, but they need to increase antibiotics spawn(add a pharmacy with a high likelyness to spawn antibiotics and antvirals?) and add a rarer antiviral drug spawn. You catch a cold/bacteria? No big deal, take some antibiotics. Flu/Virus? Sucks man, either get lucky or just wait to get over it.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Quaby

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

@Quaby, if you shoot an animal in the belly and you mess up the intestines covering the whole inside with poo, then your best bet is to cut off the legs and leave the rest. The same can happen if you 'gut' the animal and instead of just opening up the belly you open up the guts, if you already removed the skin you may well have put poo on every bit. Plus your knife being soiled... Not sure if you ever heard of E-coli, but it's said to be a real nasty bugger. http://www.oocities.org/zella48/deer_meat.html and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli

So it's not that the meat 'spoils' from being over aged, but that you spoil over it and it's spoiled because you better not eat it ...

[Quaby 93]

@Quaby, if you shoot an animal in the belly and you mess up the intestines covering the whole inside with poo, then your best bet is to cut off the legs and leave the rest. The same can happen if you 'gut' the animal and instead of just opening up the belly you open up the guts, if you already removed the skin you may well have put poo on every bit. Plus your knife being soiled... Not sure if you ever heard of E-coli, but it's said to be a real nasty bugger. http://www.oocities..../deer_meat.html and http://en.wikipedia....scherichia_coli

So it's not that the meat 'spoils' from being over aged, but that you spoil over it and it's spoiled because you better not eat it ...

I admit, I own a bow and can shoot it well but I don't hunt, so I was just going on guessing ;). I'm pretty sharp on medical procedure, and I shot someone else down earlier haha. We really are finding ourselves at odds on this thread huh? I agreed with your lighter thing tho, so WHY CANT WE BE FRIENDS!!! =)

BOOM 1st ONE ON 2nd PAGE BABY

Edited July 16, 2012 by Quaby

[Zera_Grey 28]

1.Bandages

-The numbers are good, but what would you mean by partially, just making you bleed slower?

2.Painkillers

-It is a mild generic painkiller, not an opiod or depressant. Have you ever heard of an ibuprofen addiction? That's basically what they are, so really should be no chance of addiction.

3.Morphine

-Morphine IS an opiod which is used for bullet wounds and other major injuries. However, the stat is WAY too high for addiction. People get injected with morphine all the time, and it is so close to impossible to develop an addiction on the first shot of morphine it isn't even worth mentioning. It isn't heroin, dude. Maybe 3% first shot, goes up as you use it.

4.Transfusions

-A chance to fail? "oops, i dropped all your blood....."????????

-You cannot damage someone with a needle without trying or being really stupid. All you have to know is aim for the vein. Use a rubber band.

-You either do it or you dont, there is no getting 1/2 of the blood. The only way you can fuck it up is fucking up the injection.

5&6 epi pens and antibiotics.

-You will get over most minor sicknesses, but the numbers are fine ;).

-Epi pens don't revive people. They are for allergies. Ammonia is for reviving people. Just put it next to their nose and BOOM!

Food

Most people can cook and judge when it is done effectively. I suck at cooking but the only thing I can really burn is eggs. I can tell when a steak is done.

Parasites

You only get tapeworms by eating undercooked tapeworm-infected meat. VERY unlikely. Ticks? Pick 'em off. They aren't really threatening anyway. Sure, some sicknesses would be cool, but they need to increase antibiotics spawn and add a rarer antiviral drug spawn. You catch a cold/bacteria? No big deal, take some antibiotics. Flu/Virus? Sucks man, either get lucky or just wait to get over it.

1. yes slows bleeding but doesn't stop it, just have to apply another one to finish the job

2. well I wasn't sure what type of painkillers it can refer to many of pain killers. the naming in itself is ambiguous but if you abuse any drugs you can become addicted plus the ratio 50/50 is when ineffectiveness and success are the same chance since ineffectiveness increases by .02% so likely hood of addiction is not high.

3. you miss read you will become addicted when the ineffective and success ration is 40/60. when ineffectiveness is at 40% then you are addicted. since ineffectiveness increases by .5% not 5% each use it will take a long time reach that ratio.

4. I was going with what the op wrote and you can wind up missing a vein or not being able to find one. trained nurses have problems so the average person would definitely have issues. the 1/2 the pack would mean you fumbled the bag while trying since you holding it you have a chance to drop it. if that happens the bag could burst. it is adding human error and the damage would be small if it failed but could cause pain in the arm that could effect using a weapon.

5&6. I know epi pens don't revive people I mixed it up with something else I'll delete that and add ammonia instead.

food

thats why I have two systems one that is based on random chance or one where you physically have to check on the meat as it cooks to tell if its done. it would probably be 5 minutes to 10 minutes to cook enough to kill potential parasites. plus not every one can tell when meat is done cooking on an open fire.

parasites:

you are eating meat from animals that you don't their health condition so maybe adding the potential to get them. if you get ticks you could get lime disease which are carried by deer ticks. they could be carriers of the mystery virus that infects the zombie/infected beings.

for sicknesses of course they would spawn more antibiotics and add antivirals as a rare spawn wouldn't think other wise. colds and flus actually can effect people physically more then a cough. headaches, vision, attention span, disorientation can come with those two. catching the occasional infection in an wound could be deadly.

[Quaby 93]

^Not every drug is addictive. You can't abuse ibuprofen. Demarol, sure. Vykadin, sure. Ibuprofen...whaaaaaat? Dropping a blood bag-they aren't pressurized. They aren't full with air to bursting. They are pretty much drained of air, in fact. It won't burst unless it lands on a nail. Trained nurses DO NOT have problems finding veins on most people. IDK who told you that, or what site you got it on, but it's wrong. I have a few nurses in my family and they all say the same thing-If they are fat, sure it's hard. But they can do it after a few pokes. An average person could probably not do it on a fat guy but ppl are having food trouble so that won't be an issue. If you tie something around their arm, the vein will pop up and it will be glaringly obvious where you poke. Just hang it up with a coat hanger(Taken style ;)) and wait for the blood. It can be slow b/c the hole is small, but it will work.

Foodborne illnesses-Nothing purifies like fire. If you cook it right/over cook it, you will NOT get e. coli. ONLY from undercooked meat will you get it. And it has to be REALLY REALLY undercooked. Like nearly raw. AND you check meat with a knife and fork, doesn't matter what you're cooking it on, fire or grill.

No parasite-borne illness can infect the majority of a population. I run around in the country barefoot regularly and I check for ticks every time. Not a hard procedure. VERY easy to avoid. That is why it will almost certainly be a virus that is a zombie-maker. Bacteria are less infectious and resilient. Viruses are tough and infectious. As soon as people figure out its parasites, they can check for parasites and avoid them with long pants and socks, gloves, etc. Besides, ticks aren't too common in the czech republic, where this is modeled after.

BASICALLY, if this was implemented, it would get so complicated and arduous to do stuff it wouldn't make it fun. Just LET IT BE, LET IT BE...... ;)

Damn i went forum-happy today, I stopped giving so much of a damn about grammar. Damn near typed my fingers off....SO MUCH DAMN!

Edited July 16, 2012 by Quaby

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

So what about Limes (hope i spell that correct) desease, that's tick born and can be realy nasty ...

And I atleast won't let it be because it can add a lot of good mid-gameplay to the game to have a bit of learning by doing in the game. If you don't like that then just say so, don't make an excuse for it being hard or complicated of w/e, just say 'i don't like this i don't want it' and we can just ignore you and try to improve on it ...

And nothing in dayZ seems to be about 'fun', adding in these subtle but authentic problems of survival will actually make it more fun. If i play with my friends and i am the medic, and i poke him an artery bleed because i don't know what the heck im doing, that would get him to shout and all of us to loao at the situation. It will cause him to no longer want an infusion from me perhaps, etc and so on... spoiled meat could have a different texture from good meat and if a bit more elaborate cooking is integrated you could overcook the spoiled one but it would give less HP or even foodvalue for having to cut a lot of burned stuff from it. Or if you undercook it, it can make you sick, those all cause situations can have to be dealt with that cause dynamics in the game... and as such improve the gaming experience... learning to deal with these things, identifying bad meat, and learning how to prevent things or get better at things become a secondairy goal in the game, again enriching the gaming experience. If some of those are annoying as hell (though reasonable to deal with), then adding them to the game makes the game more 'fun' ...

See the chance of breaking your bones in DayZ actually increases the challenge of zombie attacking you, and it's not so much the breaking of the bones that sucks in that situation, but the binairy sollution to it. If you can set a splint and only be able to walk with crutches, or run a short while with agonizing pain, that would be perfect. It would be somewhat authentic and atleast you can now reasonably make it to that hospital, or atleast keep moving somewhat while a team goes for the hospital to grap some. I still don't call that whole situation 'fun' by a long stretch, but it surely makes for changing dynamic gameplay and a somewhat authentic survival experience from your 'armchair' ...

I had a nurse poke a needle in me to draw some blood, and she had to poke a couple of times (im not fat, she may have been a bad nurse), i had a painfull arm for 4-5 days and a bad hammorage. Sure it wasn't the end of the world, but it was still heck annoying hardly being able to bend an arm without being reminded of it...

about undercooking meat, it doesn't matter how well you cook the meat if you afterward cut it with the same knife... the reason that whole list is there in the link with all the warning is because at some point people didn't know about these things, and in todays society most people still don't know. Here have some numbers: http://www.rightdiag...oning/stats.htm 1 in 3 a year it says ! And get some stomach infection out in the wild and half the time you are screwed unless you have a good water source, and somebody to help you...

Edited July 16, 2012 by L0GIN

[Zera_Grey 28]

^Not every drug is addictive. You can't abuse ibuprofen. Demarol, sure. Vykadin, sure. Ibuprofen...whaaaaaat? Dropping a blood bag-they aren't pressurized. They aren't full with air to bursting. They are pretty much drained of air, in fact. It won't burst unless it lands on a nail. Trained nurses DO NOT have problems finding veins on most people. IDK who told you that, or what site you got it on, but it's wrong. I have a few nurses in my family and they all say the same thing-If they are fat, sure it's hard. But they can do it after a few pokes. An average person could probably not do it on a fat guy but ppl are having food trouble so that won't be an issue. If you tie something around their arm, the vein will pop up and it will be glaringly obvious where you poke. Just hang it up with a coat hanger(Taken style ;)) and wait for the blood. It can be slow b/c the hole is small, but it will work.

Foodborne illnesses-Nothing purifies like fire. If you cook it right/over cook it, you will NOT get e. coli. ONLY from undercooked meat will you get it. And it has to be REALLY REALLY undercooked. Like nearly raw. AND you check meat with a knife and fork, doesn't matter what you're cooking it on, fire or grill.

No parasite-borne illness can infect the majority of a population. I run around in the country barefoot regularly and I check for ticks every time. Not a hard procedure. VERY easy to avoid. That is why it will almost certainly be a virus that is a zombie-maker. Bacteria are less infectious and resilient. Viruses are tough and infectious. As soon as people figure out its parasites, they can check for parasites and avoid them with long pants and socks, gloves, etc. Besides, ticks aren't too common in the czech republic, where this is modeled after.

BASICALLY, if this was implemented, it would get so complicated and arduous to do stuff it wouldn't make it fun. Just LET IT BE, LET IT BE...... ;)

Damn i went forum-happy today, I stopped giving so much of a damn about grammar. Damn near typed my fingers off....SO MUCH DAMN!

I didn't look up the nurse missing vein I had a nurse miss my vein and my sisters a few times we are not fat and never were, so its experience for that one. If you drop the bag it can cause the needle tube to exit the bag causing the blood the spill out. the percentages are suppose to add a challenge to game play and if they were implemented would probably have different percentages. humans are not infallible and accidents will happen when you rush to give your buddy blood their are more chances for mistakes.

you can become addicted or abuse ibuprofen:

http://www.drugs.com...-ibuprofen.html

if anyone is getting addicted to painkillers with a .02% increase in ineffectiveness having to get to 50% so its not likely to happen unless you survive long and actually I'm upping that percentage to .2%. you would be able to become addiction free to the pain killer be dealing with withdrawal not a once addicted your stuck addicted type of deal.

as for parasites they could use ones that are more common like these:

http://www.fsis.usda...lness/index.asp

not every parasite is a living worm I was giving an example when saying tapeworms and ticks. ticks and lice/fleas spread the black plague so in a world with a deadly infection spreading these would be effective transmission tactics.

Edited July 16, 2012 by Zera_Grey