SUGGESTION: Character Development (Backstory and Talent/Skill System)

[petward 6]

Update #1: So after having quite a few discussions I realized that some things are not clear enough, or even present, in the first post itself. That is to say people read the first post, make ignorant assumptions, and immediately freak the fuck out (Many examples can be found below...). So in hopes that I can clear up that problem I have added my intentions and elaborations on some of the more questionable parts of the system and what it entails.

I also removed the backstory suggestion from this thread so it can be added on to something more relevant in the future. Now if only I can figure out how to rename the thread itself...

Disclaimer: Keep in mind that these are simply suggestions meant to encourage intellectual discussion regarding said suggestion. Also keep in mind that these do not necessarily have to strictly apply to the ArmA 2/3 engine. However, I do invite you to utterly rip apart, berate, and effectively challenge the features I have proposed... if you dare. Now, on with the show!

Introduction

So for some reason I had one of those sudden bursts of creative energy and decided to put it to good use... by thinking of ways to improve a virtual world that will only serve to sap more of my time. I know it said for this section to have short/concise posts, but... I'm not very good at that sort of thing so to compromise I will highlight in a flamboyant color the sections that you developers (if you even bother reading this) are interested in. So go ahead, skip this introduction. It's just me rambling anyway.

I digress.One of the first things I have seen that I felt like could have a solution my feeble mind could conjure up is the issue involving Bandit VS. Survivor gameplay and how the Survivors bitch about how Bandits need to be punished for their sins against thier loot God. So I thought of the highly original idea of adding a sort of skill/talent system that would give people benefits for being Survivors or Bandits so the whole forums could stop bitching (...that was a joke...). I know you have already heard of this before, hell, even Rocket himself (May his dictatorship be long and fruitful) has proposed the idea. However, when I searched through the suggestions thread I could not find a detailed one that had been suggested. So now here we are. :End Introduction:

Intentions and Goals:

If you read anything out of this whole thread, read this part!

So this will list my intentions for the implementation of the skill system.

1. Create BALANCED incentives to either be a bandit or survivor.
   
2. Keep the game ITEM BASED. The skill system will be in the background, subtly balancing the game.
   
3. Make the skill system ACTION BASED. Just like real life you learn and improve by doing.
   
4. Skills used must be underwhelming so that they do not turn the experience into a grind for a certain skill. Subtle, insignificant rewards that can only really be noticed once you max out a certain skill line. Keep them so insignificant that you will still be killing other survivors for that nice rifle, not the 1 skill point in Predation. (SEE INTENTION 5)
   
5. DO NOT CHANGE the current balance between Veteran survivors and New survivors. Which means no damage, blood, or other notable "PvP" boosts.
   
6. DO NOT CHANGE the "Leveling through Items" system. The skill system must be second to that.
   
7. Skills must fit in the DayZ style. Stat bonuses must also correlate to given skill line.
   
8. To keep the play how you want to play and avoid pre-determined classes a cap has been set on the skill lines themselves (1/20) and the amount of skill point you can ever have (120 cap while every skill line combined has a total of 180). This will stop people from becoming overpowered, effectively balance between survivor and bandits, and balance the lone wolf vs. grouping.
   
9. Keep the system's notifications subtle or non-existent. You should only be able to tell that you've gotten better in a certain skill by actually playing the game. Not looking at a character screen.
   
10. Keep the DayZ realism, atmosphere, immersion.
    
11. For obvious reasons when you die you will loose everything. EVERYTHING!!!!
    

Alright, so that is all I can really think of that truly explains what I'm going for. Also keep in mind that the main focus of this is to balance out game play! This is not a skill system for the sake of having a skill system or making it more RPG'y.

Oh and if your thinking,"THIS IS NOT WoW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!", then first I would like to congratulate you on your astute observation. This system is nothing like any MMORPG skill/talent system out there. The most comparable system would be the one from Oblivion or Skyrim, except at a very basic, subtle level. You gain skills by doing the correlation function, not distributing points in a menu.

Skill/Talent System (Developrs might as well just read all of it...)

So now onto what I described briefly in the introduction. The Skill/Talent System. Before I move on their are a few things I used to restrict how these systems would work:

• Attributes such as health and damage were not to be tampered with whatsoever. This would ruin both the balance of players that lived for ever and "noobs". How the hell would you magically increase the damage you did with a gun anyway? Realism, bitch. (Prime Directive 2)
  
• Realism, immersion, and harshness has been kept in mind. That is to say you won't be seeing increased damage for guns (That's fucking right, I used the same example twice. U Mad?)
  
• The tight-rope balance between the veteran survivors and beginners has been held almost paramount as that must be maintained for a perfect world to develop. Veteran Survivors will get bonuses for being badass, but Beginners will still be able to kill them like they were beginners. (I know it doesn't make sense yet. Patience...)
  
• And finally the tighter-rope balance between Survivor and Bandit has been held on the highest of the highest of pedestals as that is primarily what I'm trying to fix here. Both sides will be getting benefits so that they both have their draws.
  

This part will be broken down by the different system possibilities and my take on their individual effectiveness. "Why not just post your most effective?" Because this is my suggestion thread. In all seriousness, because my effective might not be what you think would be so I'm giving all of the possibilities that at least seemed moderately acceptable in my eyes. Now, we will begin:

System #1:

A system where you gain skill points for a skill line that correlates to the action you re gaining said points from. Because that was worded horribly here is an example.

Player murder other player. Murderer gains point/s in the Murder skill. Each skill point in Murder decreases sound made, visibility, and chance of getting fear by a certain percentage. The Murder would have a cap that would make it so people wouldn't become invisible to zombles and become overpowered.

This concept would be done for all the skills like Angelicism (For every person you heal blah blah;Could tie into medicine) ,Companionship(Group Oriented), Medicine(Group Oriented for higher than 10 points), Repair, Athletics, Survivalism , Dog usage?, Ect.

System #2:

A system where you gain talent points and must allocate them how you see fit. These are gained the same way as the method above. Another example.

Player murders 5 other players. Murderer goes from having 4 points in murder to having 5 which grants them the ability to choose from three different talents. This trend continued for every 5 sill points until they reach the 4th tier of talents. Same concept of stats as above except with that you have to make a choice between the talents, you can only pick one in each tier.

Verdict:

Now, I said there were multiple ones, but I decided to narrow it down to only two that I think would fit best in the DayZ style. Now for my glorious opinion. both follow the general same concept, getting more powerful through actually doing the activities you get stronger in. Just like in real life :0. However, in my opinion I believe that System #1 would fit the best. The main reason for this is due to the development of "builds" when you compare it to the System #2. This will lead to many people using the same exact build because it happens to be the most cohesive. While this doesn't always happen if they are all balanced (...LOL... Oh wait... You're serious?) it doesn't have any chance of happening if you use System #1.

"But that still doesn't balance the Bandit's VS Survivors issue!" That is why you will only have a set amount of skill points you can possibly gain. For example, with all of the possible skill lines each line caps off at 20. Let's say that all of them add up to 500. However, over the course of your short DayZ life you can only gain 250. Bandit's focused on killing may max out on murder, but not on something else and so on so forth.

Example of Possible Skill Lines

(NOT A TRUE SUGGESTION. ONLY USING IT TO SHOW HOW THE SYSTEM WOULD LOOK AND WHAT IDEAS FOR SKILLS WOULD WORK WITH IT. ALTHOUGH I TRIED TO BALANCE IT, IT IS NOT COMPLETE/FINAL.)

Keep in mind this is using System #1 from the original post.

Skill Lines:

So decided to update the thread with a few skill lines and the mechanics. First I will go over the general system itself. Keep in mind this is using System #1 from the original post.

There are a total of 9 skill lines. Each skill line caps off at 20 points and the global cap for the skill points is 120. So that means even when you hit the cap you will be missing 1/3 of the points needed to max out everything. I was going to be stricter by making you miss out on 1/2, but I felt I might as well start high until more feedback in generated. Now onto the skill lines themselves.

• Hunting: Player gains 1 point per 10(maybe 15) zombie kill/animal kill (assuming that animals will eventually run from you). This line will decease the amount of sound and sight you generate by 1% for each point. Therefore when maxed you will have -20% sound/sight generation. Probably the easiest to level up considering the nature of zombies and animals. Could be considered most OP.
  
• Predation: Player gains 1 point per 5(maybe a more manageable 3) survivor kill. This line will decrease chance of getting Pain(fear) and your sound generation by 1% for each point. Maxed grants you -20% sound/fear generation.
  
• Animal Training: Player gains 1 point per 5 zombie/player kill from Dog. This line will increase the sight of the Dog and the amount of damage it will inflict. Sight will be the regular 1% while damage will only be .5% per point. Maxed your dog will have +20% sight and +10% damage. Until it dies. Then it is reset.(Maybe...)
  
• Mechanic: Player gains 1 point per every car part (possibly whole car) repaired. this line will be not give any percentage bonuses. Instead it will give incremental bonuses every 5 points. At 5 players will not need a wheel to fix wheels. At 10 players will not need fuel tank parts to fix fuel tank. At 15 players will not need engine to fix engine. At 20 players will not need rotor to fix helicopter rotor. Possibly most under powered.
  
• Endurance: Player gains 1 point per every 10min(possibly make 20 or 30) ran. This line will increase the players speed by .5% and decrease the player's thirst/hunger rate by 1% as well. Maxed will have +10% speed and -20% thirst/hunger rate.
  
• Adaptation: Player gains 1 point per each hour spent in-game. This line will decrease temperature rate by 1% and pain/fear by 1%(maybe .5%). Maxed will have -20% temperature and -20%(maybe -10%) pain/fear.
  
• Medicine: Player gains 1 point per every medical item used on survivor/self. At level 10 this changes to the player gaining 1 point per every medical item used on only other survivors. This line will give players 1% chance to not use up medical item on usage. (maybe too unrealistic...) Maxed will have 20% chance of not using up medical items on usage.
  
• Cooking: Player gains 1 point per every 3 cooked meat they create. This line will increase the blood gained by cooked meat by 1% each point. Maxed will give you +20% blood which translates to 960 blood per every cooked meat.
  
• ...and finally Companionship: Player gains 1 point per every 10(maybe 30) mins spent not killing other survivors. This line will decrease chance of pain/fear by 1% and the amount of sight generated by 1%. Maxed will give you -20% pain/fear and -20% sound generation.
  

It's pretty rough, but for the most part I believe it is balanced. As always feedback is immensely welcomed. Hope this gives a better idea of how the system works.

Conclusion:

So yeah... concise. Not really my thing. However I will keep this short. I hope this has helped the developers in any way possible and that they are good ideas/suggestions. God forbid that I give you a bad idea that you for some reason implement and it ruins the mod... As for you other forum lurkers feel free to rip this shit apart until I go cry in a corner. And to Rocket thank you for creating such a wonderful mod. I speak for everyone when I say that you have created something that has given me more memorable memories than any other gaming experience... Except for Deus Ex...

Edited July 15, 2012 by Petward

[Albatros (DayZ) 40]

Okay, how's this.

Instead of levelling up based on 'murders', 'zombie kills', 'medic', or whatever else. Allocate the player 1 skill point per day.

Also remove the Hive. Without it you'd have better servers, as they'd be filled with regulars. There'd be no server hopping, and as regulars would know each other they'd more likely team up. Having cars at towns, not hidden. And you never have to worry about the hive going down.

[petward 6]

The 1 skill point per day would most definitely make the beginning just as hardcore as it has always been. It also does get rid of the "you do this so you get better at it" attitude I have a virtual boner for. I'm assuming this would mean you would be spending the skill points on talents rather than... System # 1? Sorry I don't really know what to call it. I do like how it emphasizes the need to survive as long as possible. However I do not like it myself as it would not really get rid of the bandit/survivor debacle like a "you do this so you get better at it" system. The real intent of this is to make it so that everyone is essentially on an "even" playing field regarding the bonuses they acquire through the skill system. I hope I'm not rambling too much :S.

Thank you for the input! Brainstorming like this is the only way for this mod to get better and better.

[Baender (DayZ) 0]

I know how much work is behind your idea and i thing that your idea sounds interesting for many people, but its a balancing act between people who play the game for fun and hardcore gamer who stay ingame for the whole day. What i want to say is, that the whole game can change to a WOW-Like-Leveling-Game where regular gamer have an advantage over casual player.

I like your idea to implement lite skills that don't change the game to much. The group idea must stay in focus, like having a benefit for finding items, because you are in a group and you have a closer eye on the ground or whatever..

[thmsrox 14]

I agree with Baender, no disrespect to your ideas, but I feel like casual players will get punished for not being no-lifers (just to say it blunt and make a point), and I think this will happen with both of the systems you've described. Also let's suppose for a second that I do support your idea, having a "Murder"-skilltree will probably promote a lot more unfriendliness I think, although it's not like there are too many friendlies out there right now anyways.

[petward 6]

I was originally trying to stay realistic about the power and what the ArmA engine can and can't do. I think things like having the amount of loot you find being a factor in gaining skill points for whatever would be too convoluted as much as I would love for something like that.

I completely know what you are talking about. Adding any type of leveling system, pseudo or not, almost instantly ruins the atmosphere... unless done correctly. I may have forgot to add this, but a way to diminish this is the fact that all of your points wipe once you die. So you have full Murder and can sneak past any zombie easily? Well that's too bad that the noob with a makarov just snuck up on you and killed you. That's the beauty of the DayZ system. Nothing is permanent... for the most part. It also helps that my idea of "skills/bonuses" don't actually affect how hard a player is to kill.

[petward 6]

I agree with Baender, no disrespect to your ideas, but I feel like casual players will get punished for not being no-lifers (just to say it blunt and make a point), and I think this will happen with both of the systems you've described. Also let's suppose for a second that I do support your idea, having a "Murder"-skilltree will probably promote a lot more unfriendliness I think, although it's not like there are too many friendlies out there right now anyways.

To be honest I'd prefer if you didn't respect them. I'm asking for some harsh treatment here :). Thanks for being reasonable though.

What you're explaining to me involving the Murder tree is the situation that would arise if the skill was overpowered. That's not really what this thread is about, though it is a valid concern, just not what I'm focusing on at the moment. I'm simply trying to get down a system that fits DayZ while, using conjecture, is balanced. However, even if more people went with Murder and became Bandits cause it sounded cooler, isn't that what DayZ is about? Choosing how you want to play. Psychopath or saint? While the numbers may become unbalanced the trees themselves will all be balanced... in a perfect world.

As for your first point that is rectified by my previous post.

[thmsrox 14]

I agree that DayZ is about choosing how you want to play, but to give an example, assuming the balance in DayZ is 8 - 2 concerning "shoot on sight", giving just the smallest incentive (even if your skilltree isn't overpowered, I assume people will still try their best to fill it), you will more likely shift the balance to 9 - 1. Personally I couldn't care less about the amount of players being bandits, but just increasing their amount will give players that don't want anything to do with banditry a lot less chance of playing the game they want to play (running in to people and making friends instead of getting shot for a lousy talentpoint that will make the bandit be less visible to zombies).

Edited July 13, 2012 by thmsrox

[petward 6]

I think the point of my post is a bit blurry. The point is not to appease the people whining about there being too many Bandits. The point is to simply make it so that there is both an incentive to focus on murdering people and an incentive to group up and be friendly. Both sides have incentives. If you spend all your time maxing out the Murder skill line then you can't spend all your time maxing out the Repair line, Medicine line, or group line. That's the point of capping how many points you can accumulate. It's impossible to max out all skill lines.

[urspider2018@gmail.com 109]

Of all the threads I've read about skill trees, this one is definitely one of the better thought out ones. But, on to my question.

How do you think they should show things like when you gain skill points, or when you want to look at your skill tree? They'd have to do it in a manner that doesn't break immersion, because I definitely think that if you're fully immersed in your game when suddenly a message pops up that says "Congratulations! You've leveled up!" would completely ruin your immersion. Maybe have something where you don't get any notifications on when you level up (so there's no annoying pop up) but instead you go to, say, the notes section in your map, and there's a part that says Skill Journal, and if you click on it it's like an actual journal, and says stuff like "I feel rather confident about my mechanics skills", or something. And the more confident you sound in the journal, that means the higher skill you are. I dunno.

Forgive the wall of text, I'm a little given to rambling once in a while.

[petward 6]

Of all the threads I've read about skill trees, this one is definitely one of the better thought out ones. But, on to my question.

How do you think they should show things like when you gain skill points, or when you want to look at your skill tree? They'd have to do it in a manner that doesn't break immersion, because I definitely think that if you're fully immersed in your game when suddenly a message pops up that says "Congratulations! You've leveled up!" would completely ruin your immersion. Maybe have something where you don't get any notifications on when you level up (so there's no annoying pop up) but instead you go to, say, the notes section in your map, and there's a part that says Skill Journal, and if you click on it it's like an actual journal, and says stuff like "I feel rather confident about my mechanics skills", or something. And the more confident you sound in the journal, that means the higher skill you are. I dunno.

Forgive the wall of text, I'm a little given to rambling once in a while.

Ha, don't worry, I'm privy to some rambling myself :).

Exactly what I was thinking of in terms of how to show your progress. It's like your inside my head O_o. I always liked the usage of the journal in Uncharted. Funny little ramblings from the character while you solve you puzzles (Wow, that was random...). While this may give too much life into your character the concept itself is more believable than a magical screen of numbers. This was one of the things I knew would come up, but was feeling tired/lazy so didn't fully implement it into the suggestion. I do love my immersion/realism, but this is still a game. A game with options/menus/HUD that need to be implemented somehow.

However, do you even really need to have a notifications/way to check? (I'm actually really asking here, not trying to make a point...) The game is as much about realism/immersion as it is about discovery and exploration. For example when you repair a vehicle for the 10th time you may notice that you can simply repair the engine on it's own without having to retrieve a new one. Or that subtle increase in the speed of your character from walking across the map and back. Or the ease of stealthing into a town after having done it almost 25 times. I once watched a video interview with TotalBiscut and Rocket and he explained that he liked the idea of having no HUD whatsoever and simply having noises and sounds that would tell you when you were hungry/thirsty. I know that is kind off topic, but it is that subtly that I believe breeds immersion.

ANYWAY! thank you for your feedback :).

[Ribano 46]

I think the points you've made are correct in that bandits will indeed have more opportunity to kill, but it will infact be the people who focus on the all round aspect of the game that will evetually end up on top

yes people who sit in cherno will inevitably get a lot of murders and will increase rank significatntly, but in time they will be taken out and reset to zero

it will be the people who work in groups, bandaging each other, looting, zombie killing, hunting and killing players when necessary that would come out on top and be the hardest people to kill - for me that is how it should be

I would even increase it further to say that skill levels should determine what a player can and cannot do, for instance a player with no skill in medicine cannot deliver a blood transfusion, a player with skill in hunting cannot set a bear trap, and a person with no skill in driving cannot fly a helicopter etc

by doing that there would be a natural progression to the game instead of an immediate route to the airfeilds to grab a sniper and nvg

[petward 6]

I think another major point that DayZ should have is not restricting the player of not being able to do what they want to do. I don't think streamlining people is the best way to do it, even though it does make sense.

[petward 6]

Skill Lines:

So decided to update the thread with a few skill lines and the mechanics. First I will go over the general system itself. Keep in mind this is using System #1 from the original post.

There are a total of 9 skill lines. Each skill line caps off at 20 points and the global cap for the skill points is 120. So that means even when you hit the cap you will be missing 1/3 of the points needed to max out everything. I was going to be stricter by making you miss out on 1/2, but I felt I might as well start high until more feedback in generated. Now onto the skill lines themselves.

• Hunting: Player gains 1 point per 10(maybe 15) zombie kill/animal kill (assuming that animals will eventually run from you). This line will decease the amount of sound and sight you generate by 1% for each point. Therefore when maxed you will have -20% sound/sight generation. Probably the easiest to level up considering the nature of zombies and animals. Could be considered most OP.
  
• Predation: Player gains 1 point per 5(maybe a more manageable 3) survivor kill. This line will decrease chance of getting Pain(fear) and your sound generation by 1% for each point. Maxed grants you -20% sound/fear generation.
  
• Animal Training: Player gains 1 point per 5 zombie/player kill from Dog. This line will increase the sight of the Dog and the amount of damage it will inflict. Sight will be the regular 1% while damage will only be .5% per point. Maxed your dog will have +20% sight and +10% damage. Until it dies. Then it is reset.(Maybe...)
  
• Mechanic: Player gains 1 point per every car part (possibly whole car) repaired. this line will be not give any percentage bonuses. Instead it will give incremental bonuses every 5 points. At 5 players will not need a wheel to fix wheels. At 10 players will not need fuel tank parts to fix fuel tank. At 15 players will not need engine to fix engine. At 20 players will not need rotor to fix helicopter rotor. Possibly most under powered.
  
• Endurance: Player gains 1 point per every 10min(possibly make 20 or 30) ran. This line will increase the players speed by .5% and decrease the player's thirst/hunger rate by 1% as well. Maxed will have +10% speed and -20% thirst/hunger rate.
  
• Adaptation: Player gains 1 point per each hour spent in-game. This line will decrease temperature rate by 1% and pain/fear by 1%(maybe .5%). Maxed will have -20% temperature and -20%(maybe -10%) pain/fear.
  
• Medicine: Player gains 1 point per every medical item used on survivor/self. At level 10 this changes to the player gaining 1 point per every medical item used on only other survivors. This line will give players 1% chance to not use up medical item on usage. (maybe too unrealistic...) Maxed will have 20% chance of not using up medical items on usage.
  
• Cooking: Player gains 1 point per every 3 cooked meat they create. This line will increase the blood gained by cooked meat by 1% each point. Maxed will give you +20% blood which translates to 960 blood per every cooked meat.
  
• ...and finally Companionship: Player gains 1 point per every 10(maybe 30) mins spent not killing other survivors. This line will decrease chance of pain/fear by 1% and the amount of sight generated by 1%. Maxed will give you -20% pain/fear and -20% sound generation.
  

It's pretty rough, but for the most part I believe it is balanced. As always feedback is immensely welcomed. Hope this gives a better idea of how the system works.

Edited July 14, 2012 by Petward

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

While i like your effort i do not like this as a system for DayZ, why give players advantages that may make sense in regards to the catagory you choose, but don't make sense in the game ... like f/e Hunting, so if i go into town guns blazing the further i make it the less likely it is a zombie will spot or hear me ? ... and some of the sight things make even less sense, if you stack companion and hunting you are -40% visible what does that even mean if the zombie is right in front of me in clear day ? ... and these comments are not to redicule you, but just point out how some of these things are somewhat silly in regards to DayZ ... they may make perfect sense in an RPG, where you have an invisibility power and a translucentpassive buff or something. but for DayZ ?

Still i feel that i must say that i admire your perseverance and creativity to try and make it work, though my 'feedback' would be to scrap this and move onto something new/else with the same enthusiasm :)

[petward 6]

While i like your effort i do not like this as a system for DayZ, why give players advantages that may make sense in regards to the catagory you choose, but don't make sense in the game ... like f/e Hunting, so if i go into town guns blazing the further i make it the less likely it is a zombie will spot or hear me ? ... and some of the sight things make even less sense, if you stack companion and hunting you are -40% visible what does that even mean if the zombie is right in front of me in clear day ? ... and these comments are not to redicule you, but just point out how some of these things are somewhat silly in regards to DayZ ... they may make perfect sense in an RPG, where you have an invisibility power and a translucentpassive buff or something. but for DayZ ?

Still i feel that i must say that i admire your perseverance and creativity to try and make it work, though my 'feedback' would be to scrap this and move onto something new/else with the same enthusiasm :)

Oh no, I love the honest feedback. Maybe it's because I'm a masochist...?

Anyway, onto your points. The skills I listed above were merely posted to help visualize what the system may look like. That's to say that they shouldn't be looked at as literal skills... more like placeholders.

Things like the Hunting skill line that rely on kills and such was proposed due to me not knowing the power of the ArmA 2/3 engine and trying to be realistic. At first I had thought about making it so that Hunting would increase the damage you did to zombies, but I felt that would not be as cohesive as sight and sound. You say it doesn't correlate, but I beg to differ. When your hunting in real life you notice things about your prey. How it moves, how it eats, how it fornicates, where it goes to drink, where it sleeps, and more importantly how you can out smart it. In DayZ the only way to "out smart" the A.I is to sneak past it. See where I'm going?

Yes, you can stack those two up to get -40% sight or sound depending on if your a survivor or bandit ;P. The way I envision the reduction happening is very straightforward. When you are crouched/prone (Stealth mode activated!) whatever variable your sight/sound is at gets reduced by 40%. Simple. However, these bonuses do not apply when you are standing as you are obviously not trying to be stealthy.

I agree that they may be more "gamey" than what we have now, but I believe that they fit fairly well into the DayZ world. This is assuming that the developers use the exact skills that I proposed. That is not my tru point here. As I said above the main thing I'm after is to show how the system itself works.

I don't know about other things :S. This is really the only thing I actually have an idea for at the moment. However, I have been brainstorming on the topic of Meta-game as that is probably my biggest irk with the mod at the moment... Maybe not irk, but what I would like to see implemented the most. Unfortunatley that is a very broad topic filled with ridiculous amounts of conjecture. Writing an article on that would be not only difficult, but redundant as well. I'm almost 100% sure there are at least 3 threads already like it.

Thank you for your critical feedback! Having someone that is playing the devil's advocate is the best way to find solutions to problems :).

Edited July 14, 2012 by Petward

[L0G!N (DayZ) 149]

On Hunting explination, these are all things i do in the game, i even test things out when i am in the middle of nowhere and a zombie broke my legs, what do zombies do if I ... and while in normal play i watch how they behave and what they do when (today for example it was funny to see how me and my friend agroed a zombie, my friend ran and i thought it was 'on me' but for some reason it walked towards me and around me and went after my friend, very weird tbh. but anyways) ... what i'm trying to say is, all that observing makes me a better player/hunter not from some arbitrairy stat that went +1 after some arbitrairy point, but because i observe my opponent. Does that make me a 'hunter', does killing animals make me a 'hunter', i dunno, i feel like i am just a survivor trying as best to survive ... i don't need a +1 after i kill X, i will likely increase my own skills at the game after i kill X of them and be a better player for it ... Similar with damage, where you hit a target makes a difference asto how fast it dies, and what caliber you use can make a difference, but if I shoot with a makarov and you as a hunter shoot with a makarov at the same place, why would your bullit hurt more?

That's why a lot of players are so against classes/professions/talents etc. they make no real sense for a world that tries to be authentic (maybe not always realistic) ... and i struggled with this same concept as well, not saying my idea is the best ever, but it tries to do a similar thing (create specialisation in player groups) without directly having to choose for something having to +1 something, or learn things from some arbitrairy book. Just find things like you do in the game, and perhaps you find things that suit your style (or a friends and you exchange things). You may want to read it : http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/29729-if-you-are-good-at-something-professions-teamwork/ if you haven't already ... perhaps be the devil's advocate of me ;)

I am sure you will run into something that is worth writing down, and if not expand on ideas of others, like your idea here, the first post was not the entire idea in the end. And i have updated my ideas here various times based upon good feedback, or questions or just statements or flaws pointed out :)

[jonathon.whittington@gmail.com 0]

No no no no no no no. I respect your ideals, but this is definitely NOT the direction that this game needs to take. Maybe crafting, but not a skill-based crafting system; Simply a material crafting system. This game I wouldn't say is more casual MMO, but it surely isn't fit or any skill-based game-play what-so-ever. In fact any skill-based system will probably make me leave, and from what I know, a large portion of the player-base.

EDIT:

The thing about this game that makes it popular, and what will keep it's current player-base, is because, for the most part, a new player and a veteran player are exactly the same minus raw experience. A new player can get in, kill zombies, have fun, but will surely - but not always - be worse than the veteran players; They can get as good as them, and it does not take skill-grinding, but just practice and gear (with you get pretty quickly with some patience). If you add skills, the veteran players that do stay will own a monopoly on the server because they can do everything better than the new guy under ever circumstance.

In my case, I joined DayZ, had my 30min of, "Holy shit, zombies everywhere! Darkness! I CAN'T SEE SHIT!?". But I'm a fast learner, and I was soon in the league of the "Big Bad" players. (Not to mention rolling with a large group). If skills were in place, then I would have had to invested more time in grinding, than actually playing a "fast-ish-paced" survival game.

Edited July 14, 2012 by logik

[petward 6]

Not to sound condescending, but I don't think your understanding something. The point is not to appease the people whining about there being too many Bandits. The point is to simply make it so that there is both an incentive to focus on murdering people and an incentive to group up and be friendly. I may have been to focused on rectifying this one thing, but in response to your posts that is really all this is solving. This isn't a skill/talent tree for the sake of having one in the game. This isn't to make it so that you have some sort of character progression. This is simply a way to fix the complaint that Bandit's/Survivors are not balanced.

Unfortunatley, for the most part, I agree with most of what you said. I'm gonna go off track here for a sec. The STALKER series is one of my all time favorite gaming series. Hell, it is almost on the same level as fallout 3 in terms of my favorite game of all time (And that's pretty high...). The thing that made it almost better than the Fallout series was the exclusion of a skill system/talent system. I liked the realism it entailed. I liked relying on the gear I found. To tie this in DayZ is almost a carbon copy of the game play mechanics... minus radiation and anomalies, but you get my point. I would love to keep the non-skill system that is currently implemented. However, I also want to see there be more of an incentive to be a survivor to make it balanced with the perks the Bandit gets. My realistic mind tells me that this is essentially not possible as it is always easier to be evil than it is to be good, an that crosses over into real life as well.

The best way to make this "realistic" in DayZ is to make it so that you have a group role (Kind of fundamentally like the system you posted.). Unfortunatley this will only make the problem worse. Rocket once posted that the reason "Banditery" is becoming so effective is because the Bandits are teaming up. Adding group functions will only serve to turn the game from a free-for-all to a literal team-death-machine.

The system I proposed is, in my opinion, the only way to "fix" this problem without turning it into a disaster. Making it so that you gain MINIMAL( So that they have little impact on the game.)perks for simply playing the game. You assume that the skill system would turn this into a skill based game. What I have in mind is simply not that. When the most "overpowered" skill you could possibly get only makes you 40% less of a target for zombies When you are already trying to stealth past them would certainly not make that the focus of the game. Most of the "perks" of these skill lines incredibly minimal. Not only that but you can't even choose what you progress in! If you want to become a medic you do not need to spend your points in a stupid talent tree. All you have to do is simply play like a medic. If your worried about veterans becoming too good then you are mistaken. I made sure that any veteran player can easily be killed by a newbie just as easily as before. The hardcore, tense PvP element is still there. Hell, the only time the skills even step into that territory is through the dog upgrades (Which I believe are the worst of the skill lines I proposed...).

Phew! Alright. My point is this skill system is supposed to only affect the game in a far background sense. You will never find yourself killing a survivor for the skill point in your Predation skill. You will still be doing it to be a douchebag or for the items... At least if your intelligent. Obviously the idea of gaining even the smallest bit of reward for doing something will blind some of the more... inept? players. I hope I didn't come across as heavily defensive cause that is certainly how it look like. If you take anything away from this post it is that I'm merely trying to fix the Bandit/Survivor balance efficiently and subtly. Not for the sake of making a skill system. :End Desperate Defense:

[Jackftw 310]

This isn't WoW.

In other words, NO

[Greensoxxx 3]

This idea is bad,

and you should feel bad.

[Mysticales 118]

Lets be respectful about peoples suggestions please. If you dont like them, either offer some real feedback or not say anything at all.

[OW22 21]

I was on a suggestion thread, and after 2 days, I think we came up with something good. Well it was more like constructive and destructive arguments bashing eachother until they produced a weird lovechild. So here it is:

Skills are grouped into 2 simple categories:

Combat Skills

Practical Skills

Skills go up by using them more. Things like reloading increases reload time, and only reloading increases reload time, meaning shooting does not increase reload time. Simple as that.

Combat skills include:

Pistols- Pistols and guff, shoot and reload for profit in increased accuracy and reload time. *Specific to guns*.

Long Guns- Rifles, shotguns, and the like. Shoot and reload for profit in increased accuracy in reload time. **.

Snipers- All snipers. Shoot, hold breath, and reload for profit in reload time, accuracy, and steadier aim. **.

Melee weapons- More usage gets faster swing, and needs to actually hit to "level up", and is per tool.

Stealth- When close to players or zombies and remain undetected, stealth goes up, and you can move better crouching or prone.

Running- Just 'effing bolt. You get faster at running and valuting, that's it.

Practical skills include:

Repair- Break car parts less often for better vehicle management. If you think you'll find more fuel in Jerry Cans just go away.

Medicine- After using the bloodpack enough you finally didn't spill most of it like a 4 year-old's juice. Nice. Starts at +800 until full.

Pilot- This is just a proclaimed skill. Just shows how much you've flown, and earns no bonuses.

Hunting- Debatably a combat skill, you finally know enough to know what you can and can't eat. You get more meat from animals.

Doing this gives no one those unrealistic bonuses of somehow magically gaining more space in a pack, having more blood, or some other strange and ridiculous bonus. Use the skill, and it goes up. Survive longer, and get better. Die, and lose all your skills. So don't die.

That's it, I hope you like it!

Edited July 14, 2012 by OW22

[petward 6]

This idea is bad,

and you should feel bad.

I'm crying in the corner as we speak.

[petward 6]

This isn't WoW.

In other words, NO

I understand the perceived implications when I say talent/skill system. It is a VERY general topic. When most any player thinks of a skill/talent system the MMORPG style immediately pops into thier head. This is quite understandable as it is a huge, almost overwhelming, feature in those types of games. DayZ is not, to that extent, an MMORPG and adding a talent system like what you find in games like WoW or Guild Wars 2 would not mesh with the rest of the formula. DayZ is not WoW and it shouldn't be treated like it, I understand that. That is why the system is NOTHING like any MMORPG's, or even general RPG's, I have ever played (I know, I'm so unique in my creativity.). The only comparable game I can find is the Skyrim system at it's base. However, even then the system I proposed is a lot more simple and subtle than it's. In fact, I purposefully made it so that it had VERY LITTLE IMPACT to the current game mechanics. Hell, the most profound change is the 40% decrease in sound/sight. If your going to try and reply, please make sure you actually read the entirety of the article and it's following replies...

Edited July 14, 2012 by Petward