Slight law system proposal: AI Survivor murder chance of 'witnesses' discuss

[Ving (DayZ) 1]

So just thinking outloud here, please contribute as you see fit, but lets try to have a discussion here without rediculous remarks. If you dont like the idea, fine. State why, or state an alternate way to handle the idea, lets not have this devolve into anything but a discussion of AI survivors who have a chance to witness murders.

So the basic idea: And REMEMBER, this is a 'long-term' suggestion, IE if its not possible with the current engine, I am suggesting that it may be something to look into, later, or as a way to do it presents itself. In other words, responses such as 'its not possible w/ the current engine you newb' are irrelivant, and redundant, so please, if thats what you have to say, just zip it, thats not what this thread is about. On the other hand expand on your opinion if you think it could be done better,or if its somewhow gamebreaking for you.

The Idea:

AI 'survivors', who, 'may' (mathematical chance based on ai survivors l-o-s/hearing/proximity to a pvp 'event')

* may have a chance on impacting some sort of in-game penalty/warning system to other players about possible murderers on the server. This of course will not be a magic 'penalty' upon bandits, but a chance that they may be more recognizable, due to a witness of ones 'all the way until yesterday when the zombies busted out' dispicable and illegal acts, and it bieng noted by whatever vestige of society still remains? Something that adds some sort of realistic reprecussion to gunning people down in cold blood in extremely public places?

Some kinds of suggested AI survivors:

- A hiker/survivor who is pathed to hike through various woods, may have bioculars.

- A survivor standing/lying wounded in proximety of some of the non-usable car wrecks.

- A child hiding from the zombies in a house or barn.

- A wounded military member thats hiding out/playing possum at a military sight, to avoid the zombies that just ate all his comrades

- A forest ranger, with binoculars, pathed through specific wilderness ranges, trying to hold together whats left of the law.

- A town's police/fire or milita member, either holed up in a government building (IE firestation etc)

- A paranoid survivor in a house looking out a window with binoculars

Etc, Suggestions on variations welcome.

These Ai survivors, would sometimes have paths and sometimes be in stationary locations, for whatever reason, theyve survived. They wont be everywhere. They also may be there, whether you spot them or not.

Upon gunshot within hearing or los, they will be 'alerted'. A mathematical algorythm, much like the zombies, will then determine whether they are 'witnessing' something.

These AI can witness the following: Murder, possible murder, and looting a dead person.

This information is stored, and displayed to others on the server in several possible ways, (and usually LOCALLY only) - The 'way' it is 'displayed' is obviously open to discussion'.

This 'witnessing' will NEVER be all the time, but only when a positive 'roll of the dice' is made by the AI witness in question. and the roll wont be made, until certain range and line-of-sight qualifications are fullfilled first. IN OTHER WORDS - IT WILL BE VERY/RELATIVELY RARE, but will happen often enough, that people might think before they kill someone out in the open, with no worries to the consiquence of maybe being seen, and noted....

My thoughts on specifics of how to thus get the witness info, to the player:

A 'actionable' billboard in the same town/'closest town to' the 'witness that shows local witness findings, options may include either names or not, (depending on what the concensus/devs prefer in terms of 'realness') Or could just be a listing like 'At 506 pm 7/18 A man in camo etc murdered player -insert name here- near the -insert location here'.

OR

Make these AI survivors capable of interaction, and able to tell the player on request, what it has witnessed in the last week or so.

Remember, i said the system doesnt necessarily give names, it could just be an indicator of how 'hot' the general area has been recently.

ALSO

An alternate additon to this idea, is that, if the 'murderer' in question is 'positively I.D.ed' by the AI survivor (a question of range and los perhaps?) then that person gains some sort of a progressive model 'skin' change, - such as a hat that players cant get, a bandana, something like the bandit skin, AND that exact addition to his skin, IS LISTED on that same billboard local to where the murder or loot happened, as a description of said murderer/looter, IF it is witnessed. No witness? no skin addition. Its like no-one knew it happened.

Also, a nice touch,might be to have a complete 'world' list of these happenings being on the 'actionable/viewable billboard's in the largest towns, or, the AI witnessses in the larger towns (That you can now interact with) can have the 'world list' -representing, that news travels fast to the larger towns.

Like I said, just thinking outloud, please discuss whether you like the idea, have a better one in the same realm, or think this wont work or doesnt fit.

I only ask that if you dont like the idea, please list an objective game reason why, rather than flames or insults.

I'm not sure it would work, or that I even like it myself, I'm just throwing out an idea to the devs that crossed my mind...

Discuss in an adult manner if your capable...

Edited July 13, 2012 by Ving

[zynx33 7]

Why are people always so keen on punishing bandits? It's part of the game.

[Ving (DayZ) 1]

Well, i dont know why you call this a punishment.

I even suggested no names involved.

What it would do I think, is simulate that there would be SOME humanity left in the word, you know, people that dont turn into mindless animals, once the first excuse to act like a douche arrives, and SOME if not most reasonable humans, wanting to focus on stopping the zombies and returning to normalcy, rather than becoming a serial killer the second an excuse to do so arrives.

Somewhat like a wanted poster thing.

Dont you Bandits wanna be Jesse James?

Dont you think everyone in the world in a zombie apocalypse would be more concerned with killing the zombies and returning to a 'good life' rather than devolving into heartless animals with no consiquence? AND the attempt of tracking and noting serial killers and heartless murderers - by those that would prefer a return to the days before the infected outbreak would be... likely?

My suggestion or penalty as you term it, is very lite, and also, simulating some sort of reprecussion to instant serial lulz murders, that is very 'unlikely' in a REAL apocolypse, and wouldnt be without consiquence, if within easy view, of those that want to stop the madness/return to their pre-zombie lives (presumably the majority, unless you think this is 'Manhunt' with zombies - 'rollseyes').

And as I said, its just an idea. But its not hate towards bandits. Its just me trying to add another aspect to the game that also simulates SOME 'possible' more realistic reprecussion to murdering people in public.

(remember, I said they wouldnt be all over the place, but it would make you think twice, and the chance of running into a ranger or a hiker in the woods would be like 1/250 or worse, so it would make killers atleast be more discreet and thoughtful, if they didnt want consiquences to eventually catch up to them, and those consiquences, as I listed would be having to wear a hat, and 'possibly being mentioned on a wanted poster, - not exactly a huge hurdle for anyone really, just a change, and maybe a 'hey I saw you on a wanted poster - blam blam blam -sorta thing....)

Edited July 12, 2012 by Ving

[rainf 76]

The thing is, outside of actual groups of survivors, i just cant see a place for 'community' or 'law'.

"Oh hello officer, look, yesterday I witnessed a murder"

"Zombies?"

"Oh good heavens no no no officer, this wasn't some of your usual eaten and torn apart alive stuff, a man actually SHOT sombody, and he looked like THIS"

"Good work citizen, i'll just process this down at the station and well be right on it, now dont get eaten".

"Wanted" posters?

So let me get this straight, Im surviving in a post apocalypse zombie nightmare. My family is eaten and im doing what I must to get by, looting where I can, avoiding zombies, stealing from others who won't freely give me what i NEED to live, and one day, some guy comes and robs me. Do i see this as the law of the land and thank my lucky stars (or curse them) that he didn't put one between my eyes? No, i make a poster with my microsoft office and printer, and digital camera snapshot of the perp, stick it on the wall in the local town after negotiating with the local zombie council about the advertising costs, put my address down so that those who accept my 'quest' can come and get the reward. Which is nothing, because im starving in a fucking zombie apocalypse.

Even the term 'bandit' barely applies seeing that law and order are relics of the world we lived in.

If you and your buddies want to create your own group of vigilante's then go for it, be friendly to players, take them in, and protect them, hunt 'bandits', but AI systems, and 'wanted' signs are silly.

Edited July 12, 2012 by Bricks

[Ving (DayZ) 1]

Well see, your supporting your argument with kinda exageration rather than objectivity.

You dont need microsoft for wanted posters, all you need is a crayon and paper and something to use as a nail.

They had wanted posters before Microsoft bud.

I think the argument would be more - is there anyone else left enough to be able to even do the writing on a piece of paper thing.

So as I said thinking outloud....

How about we discuss letting players make their 'own wanted posters'?

Are you going to tell me i need a printer for that?

Also, dont assume I'm writing this, because it reflects my own characters wants or my teams wants. My group is as ruthless as the next unless we're not threatened - theres no logical reason not to be this way as the current game mechanics are.

I really dont think THAT is particularly realistic, and am just thinking outloud about ways to make the atmosphere a little more 'survival' and a little less 'pvp deathmatch under all circumstances.'

Perhaps your right about the initial idea.

So spin off of it.

Or perhaps you dont care too, because you enjoy the rather unrealistic, 'Manhunt +Zombies' we are playing right now?

Thats fine, not everyone wants it to change. I personally think more tools need to be given to the players to be able to peacefully engage one another, and i think this devolution immediately after an apocalypse to full time serial killing is unrealistic, and a result of not having fear of death, as you can just respawn and get going pretty fast if you know what your doing.

I also think there should be some way to EVENTUALLY identify people, if they are constantly ganking people, and theyve been witnessed either by AI or players, but the current skins/clothing, dont really let you do that.

So... whataya got for me? Come on, you know its a little silly right now, what mechanic can you suggest to make this 'situation' a little more realistic?

Or is that just it? You really dont care for survival other than last man standing Doom style?

Sad if this game stays at that boring, everyother game lets shoot the other guy in the head in every situation 'level'.

This game has much more potential than that, with a few player tools.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Ving

[vinss 21]

I had similar ideas, got same replies from community few weeks ago.

Just kill on sight or die. Sad but true

[rainf 76]

Despite my exageration's I still think its a stupid idea.

Would anybody, really, REALLY outside an area that has maintained some semblance of law/order go around putting up "Wanted" posters? Shit, maybe, but to what end?

I am trying to look at this from the POV of sombody surviving such an apocalypse, the life I had is gone, this likely includes the location in which I lived through all sorts of hazards, so in order to survive I am likely on the move a lot. If I witnessed a murder, I probably wouldn't be getting involved, unless its checking the stiff for anything the killers didn't take.

Now, without a printer, lets say I have a paper and pencil, how do I draw the guy? Take some time out of my busy schedule of surviving to make a nice detailed picture of some shabby dishevelled guy, but guess what? Like most people my artistic skills are mediocre at best, BUT lets say they aren't that bad and I manage to draw some guy, how useful is it?

Like myself, most people are rarely going to be tied down to one spot if they want to survive, at least, not likely an area which attracts PEOPLE and behind them more zeds, so old buddy bandit is probably long gone and all my effort into making a poster in the middle of a zombie apocalypse has been for what? Need I worry about the acuracy of my memory for drawing the said bandit?

I'm sorry, the idea IS rediculous.

If there ever is a place that has law and order, or groups who are willing to hunt people down, ok cool, it might be OK, until then, do some investigating on who killed you, hop on the forums and try to find such groups/people there.

[Ving (DayZ) 1]

I think you missed the part, where I said it didnt involve the guys picture, and possibly even his name.

All it would do, IF it got a witness flag, is say 'a guy in a brown cowboy hat killed so&so here at 508 pm 7/12 be on your guard fellow humans.'

and then you, as the killer would also now be wearing a brown cowboy hat. period. (rather than noting a facial/body feature - since Arma doesnt have this - use a piece of clothing as a substitution)

So now are you going to tell me i cant spell 'brown cowboy hat' post apocalypse or somethin? :)

BTW, you'd make your argument better if you replaced the exageration with just straight comparison, and the term stupid/rediculous, with a less absolutest, more descriptive, and less insulting choice of words.

Like unrealistic, over complex, those would work quite nicely. It would make the point better, and make you come across as if where having a discussion, rather than you bieng slightly insulting. It implies that you dont have an arguement, and are crutching. But you have an argument. Why not just make it.

Also, i'm not butthurt about dying to players either, My current has been alive for a while now, days not hours, and I think i've been player killed once, i dont even remember honestly. I just dont think the atmosphere of 'kill or be killed' by the players between themselves and other players, by EVERYONE is realistic, and i think its because there arnt mechanics in game simular to RL that would prevent that anywhere and everywhere by everybody, as we are seeing right now.

Just an opinion.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Ving

[rainf 76]

Surely you see the redundancy of 'be on your guard' in such a world. Cowboy hat, clown hat or KKK hood, I am going to be on my guard.

My arguement remains the same with or without the exageration and in either case I feel it holds true. If the exageration offends I apologise, I just have a visual mind and often create 'scenario's' for things.

[zipper 69]

Trying to uphold the law in a lawless world. I like it. You win the nobel peace prize.

There is plenty of humanity left, it just isn't in cherno or electro. Stop running into death traps.

Correcting the words presented to you doesn't help your idea either. All it does is turn people off. You presented the idea to us, not the other way around.

You want humanity in the game and come to the conclusion the only way it can exist is if a machine is playing AI characters in the game. Maybe you can just try playing with friends

[Ving (DayZ) 1]

I already play with friends. Alot of friends.

And I see those same friends devolving into serial killers as well, and everyone else on, because, it is simply the best choice game-wise.

Not because we would do the same in a RL apocalypse.

Its a limitation of tools, and a lack of consiquences.

So, stop assuming I'm a newb, I'm up in the hills with rare weapons, and I often have 6-10 clan mates on the same server.

I dont need your survival advice.

So from your sentence related to the topic, I take it that you prefer it as sandbox as possible, even at the expense of balance for a little sense of realism immersion? Thats fine, we all enjoy games differently.

I'd like something more than another 'murder the other guy! now with badly animated zombie AI! personally.

If the AI thing turns you off, then give me paper and a pen for those wanted posters, or give me another idea?

Lets discuss, instead of being beligerant towards one another, thats so 1997.... lol

Edited July 13, 2012 by Ving

[Ving (DayZ) 1]

Surely you see the redundancy of 'be on your guard' in such a world. Cowboy hat, clown hat or KKK hood, I am going to be on my guard.

My arguement remains the same with or without the exageration and in either case I feel it holds true. If the exageration offends I apologise, I just have a visual mind and often create 'scenario's' for things.

Yeah, i hope I didnt come across as too dickesh either man, and I appreciate you staying in here for the conversation.

I think in a simular fashion, and honestly, your imput is just making me think more. I figure if we get a few good brains in here thinking, maybe someone comes up w/ something that expands in a small way on what is already a great base for a game.

Although, 1.5 is more stable and playable, and looks more like a real game, than 2.0 or 2.1 for me. The ammo to zombie ratio, or alternately, crawling on your belly for 100's of thousands of yards each session to avoid a badly buffed los meter on the zombies, and the crappy loot, make 2.0 and 2.1 patches to be washed away as quickly as possible, if the Dev team wants to keep people interested and playing. So I'm suggesting other things for them to do, rather than mess with the zombies before they get the new animations and pathing in - it just seems impatient and silly to have even patched 2.0

Yeah its an alpha. If no one wants to play, its an alpha that no-one wants to play.....Remember devs, your getting quite abit out of this community, it wouldnt be the same if they lost interest.

Edited July 13, 2012 by Ving

[whatbadguy 21]

Wanted posters, I don't see anyone giving a wanted poster a second glance... What's the point?

[Ving (DayZ) 1]

Consiquence to unrealistic lulzmurders in very public places.

Makes serial player killers think alittle bit about their surroundings before just killing every player they run into, - Thus HOPEFULLY changing the game culture slightly, so that there is room for something other than shoot first and ask questions later ONLY.

If you like the jist of that last sentence, but think this is not the way to do it, -add your own idea. :)

I think my original idea may be stretching it - BUT, i'm trying to get a discussion going here, how do we make the game have yet another little twist, a consiquence while not making it dumb?

Surely this has crossed someone elses mind? Surely there is room for factors that might not lead to every player encounter most likely bieng a deathmatch?

Edited July 13, 2012 by Ving

[rainf 76]

What's also not really cool is you blindly defending your idea without even adding to it, I know you probably think it's genius, but it has been thoroughly shot down.

[Ving (DayZ) 1]

What's also not really cool is you blindly defending your idea without even adding to it, I know you probably think it's genius, but it has been thoroughly shot down.

Lulz, i've added to it several times, and I've also said if you have an idea, that is better and accomplishes the same, lets hear it!

I also dont think its genius, in fact, I'm looking for a better answer to be honest.

Got one?

[tomany 7]

This idea gets a no from me. It is already fairly easy to tell who is and who is not a bandit, if you see a high powered rifle, Coyote Backpack, Asault rifle, or anything of the sort, you have about a 99.999999 % chance they are a bandit. The heart beat is good enough for me. Plus this is a zombie simulator, note the "simulator" portion of the phrase, in real life, if someone saw you shoot someone in a zombie apocolypse, i dont think they would say a word, for all they know the person the shot was bitten, or injured, or trying to kill them. And if you had a family, would you let someone live if they had a gun? Hell i dont even know if i could trust my wife, for all i know, she could shoot me, because she thinks im dead weight.

And finally, if they see you kill someone in the forest who is he going to tell? if he is just north of cherno, he might make it to cherno before being eaten to tell someone. And i cant see this being broadcasted to all the other cities. And even more so, i would just shoot any NPC i saw if i committed a crime like that.

[rainf 76]

This idea gets a no from me. It is already fairly easy to tell who is and who is not a bandit, if you see a high powered rifle, Coyote Backpack, Asault rifle, or anything of the sort, you have about a 99.999999 % chance they are a bandit. The heart beat is good enough for me. Plus this is a zombie simulator, note the "simulator" portion of the phrase, in real life, if someone saw you shoot someone in a zombie apocolypse, i dont think they would say a word, for all they know the person the shot was bitten, or injured, or trying to kill them. And if you had a family, would you let someone live if they had a gun? Hell i dont even know if i could trust my wife, for all i know, she could shoot me, because she thinks im dead weight.

And finally, if they see you kill someone in the forest who is he going to tell? if he is just north of cherno, he might make it to cherno before being eaten to tell someone. And i cant see this being broadcasted to all the other cities. And even more so, i would just shoot any NPC i saw if i committed a crime like that.

THIS.

Also, the NPC's would need to tell if the guy being killed is being murdered or having justice served on him/her.

I can't see any way to implement such a system into the game, or a need to for a variety of reasons, my biggest;

Servers are generic and I can kill freely here, and go elsewhere.

Players are generic, we all pretty much are carbon copies.

If I was forced to play my char on one server, I suppose community could take place, further to this, if there was player customization in terms of clothes etc, finding a player might be a much easier task to achieve and make a "wanted/warning" sign have purpose.

[zynx33 7]

this game is nowhere near realistic my friend, sure it may be more realistic then other games, but if you're looking for realism then don't play a game with fictitious enemies. Go outside and play a game called real life? You can do a ton of things, and the graphics are AMAZING.

[Ving (DayZ) 1]

If your going to attempt to troll,

Atleast make it funny or relevant to something, otherwise, heh. Dude, really? lol.keep going its amusing.

[zynx33 7]

I'm not trolling. Just tired of people trying to come up with ways to "punish" bandits. Or trying to make the game more unfriendly towards bandits.

[LastShenanigan 8]

I would just like easier ways to identify players on my own. Your ideas interesting but it may be a lot of work just for a very rare chance of it happening. Finding a npc survivor on the road who for some food will give me information might be nice, but I'm not too keen on them having items on them. I don't mind not know who killed me, I take issue with witnessing a murder myself at close range and then moments later not being able to identify who was the attacker because he looks just like everyone else standing around. I hate when me and my friend are looting an area and we have to vocally announce to each other that it is in fact us standing a foot away from each other. Player names appearing over us really isn't a solution either.

[THEDirtySanchez 0]

My suggestion to anyone who will listen is less about "punishing" bandits, but more about what you mentioned earlier in the post - "to peacefully engage one another". That, I think, is the key to solving some of the problem.

I break it down like this. There are 3 categories of killers, bandit who kills with purpose (to loot, clear threat, ultimately gain something). Second, there is the basic dick that kills for no apparent reason, just because they can. I wish I had an idea for limiting that, but I don't. Last, there is the Kill on Site friendlies that shoot first due to the new nature of the game. If there were ways to engage peacefully, that could eliminate at least one of the problems.

My idea; For a lack of a better term, basically have an ability to tell someone to freeze. If you can successfully hit someone with a freeze, they fall unconciouse for X minutes and drop all of their inventory. This would allow the attacker time to do what they want, they could retreat, loot, or even still decide to kill. It's basically allowing one to rob at gun point. That reminds me, the freeze option would have to come with a gun in order to have something to threaten the other with. If I'm unarmed, the guy with the gun isn't going to freeze. To take it a step further, maybe the "victim" here has a prompt pull up first before falling unconcious, asking them if they want to "freeze" or risk it. Who knows, the other guy could be bluffing with no bullets... lol. I think that would be awesome and would add to the game.

I'm sure the badit purist will find a way to say this is punishment too...?

[zipper 69]

I already play with friends. Alot of friends.

And I see those same friends devolving into serial killers as well, and everyone else on, because, it is simply the best choice game-wise.

Not because we would do the same in a RL apocalypse.

Its a limitation of tools, and a lack of consiquences.

So, stop assuming I'm a newb, I'm up in the hills with rare weapons, and I often have 6-10 clan mates on the same server.

I dont need your survival advice.

So from your sentence related to the topic, I take it that you prefer it as sandbox as possible, even at the expense of balance for a little sense of realism immersion? Thats fine, we all enjoy games differently.

I'd like something more than another 'murder the other guy! now with badly animated zombie AI! personally.

If the AI thing turns you off, then give me paper and a pen for those wanted posters, or give me another idea?

Lets discuss, instead of being beligerant towards one another, thats so 1997.... lol

You play with friends and complain about humanity? This is a sandbox game. You make your own adventure. If you and your friends want some more humanity, create it yourselves. You complain about humanity and then tell us you see your friends devolving into serial killers. Maybe change the way you play or change the friends you play with if you want a different experience.

I assumed you were a noob because you posted the 5 billionth idea in an attempt to "fix" PvP. You brought it upon yourself. The stickies you are supposed to read tell you about certain topics that have been beaten to death. This qualifies.

I do prefer it as sandbox as possible because it allows you to do whatever you want. You should not be restricted in a free to roam environment. If you want to help people out, you can. If you want to shoot people, you can. If you want to shoot people preying on people that can't shoot back, you can. You can do whatever you want. So if you and your friends are sitting in the hills becoming serial killers, a few AI witnesses aren't going to change that. You will continue to do what you want. There are plenty of groups that play the game only to help others out, and they do it quite successfully. The game is not supposed to adapt to your playstyle. You need to adapt to it. I can't understand why some people are unable to grasp this. There is no law. There are no rules. If you want law to be enforced, you have to enforce it yourself. You do not change the game mechanics to create it. You are saying you want a law system implemented when you can already do this yourself. So even if they did change the way the game currently works to adapt this idea, you wouldn't care anyway because you would still be shooting people from the hills.

You want to discuss this topic but there is nothing to discuss.

People who want to play a certain way have to figure out how to accomplish it within the available means in the game. Many people already have.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/3910-need-medical-assistance-we-can-help/

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/14818-freeside-trading-co/

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/2216-chernarus-quarantine-force-cqf/

Stop trying to make the game into something it doesn't need to be. If you want more humanity, create it yourself. If your clan members aren't on board with your particual playstyle, change you name and don't join on TS/Mumble/Vent/etc. when you want to play in a group that helps others. As the homepage says, this is DayZ. This is your story. The more effort you put in, the better your story will be. The Devs aren't here to create the story for you.

[IzYouFaggot 4]

seems right