Let's discuss a skill system

[Nighteyes 1]

I am not too aware on what is possible with the engine currently, but I have an idea for a skill system which would keep up with the spirit of the game.

First, let's look at how most skill systems work in games and how it wouldn't fit well with Day Z.

Most, if not all games, have a skill system where after a player levels up, they gain some points to unlock new skills. Whether the skill is arbitrarily given in a certain order or the player has access to a skill tree, the way skills are given to the player is generally the same.

Why this system wouldn't work for Day Z.

Let's say a the game gains levels and experience and the player kills 30 zombies and gains a level. Then he picks or is given the skill to repair his weapon. That makes no sense that he spontaneously gains the knowledge of repairing machinery just from killing zombies. It breaks the mood and the spirit of the game.

[updated]Then how could we implement a skill system? [being discussed]

I thought about this and feel I have come up with a way that will completely stay within the atmosphere and gameplay of Day Z.

I think skill books should be added to the loot list. When a player comes across a book, they have the option to study it and gain the skill it provides after a certain amount of time, let's say an hour. Upon reading it, the book will be consumed and destroyed(gameplay purposes). The skill will then be activated for the player when he finishes studying the book (maybe have an icon show up showing that the skill is active). The impact to Day Z, both gameplay and social, could be huge. This keeps with the scavenging gameplay of Day Z and adds something more to lose when a player does that can NOT be looted from the corpse.

[updated]Impact to gameplay:

Searching for skill books would become a huge factor in the game. It would add specializations to players. Players who find certain skill books would change their style of play to compliment their new skills which could be a good way of pushing players to try various play styles. Also, when death occurs, skills cannot be retrieved nomatter what. This adds something that is 100% permanently lost.

[updated]Impact to social behavior:

Groups will have to decide more about how to approach a town and who to send in because they won't want to lose anyone with skills. If a group loses a butcher/hunter, that would become a huge loss in their ability to find animals and heal. Losing a groupmate would have a much bigger impact when the group permanently loses something.

[updated]How to keep it balanced:

Limit the number of skills a player can learn. Keep the max number of skills to about 2 or 3. Once you learn them, that's it. There is no way to unlearn them and you don't have the time/ability to focus on more skills. Secondly, the skills should never make doing a task trivial. They shouldn't lower the skill required to do a certain task. They should add a bonus to doing such task to show that this player would be better suited to do something than others when assigning tasks.

[updated]Skillbook ideas: [being discussed]

I have no idea what is possible in the engine. Also the numbers are not balanced at all. Just want to get some ideas out there. I have broken them up into categories.

General skills

Distance Runner (Longer / faster running)

Space Management (pack/tent size increased by 20%)

Butcher (20% more meat from animals)

Tracker (animals within 1 km to the player show up on the map)

Mechanic (Fix vehicles with less scrap metal)

Gun Repair (if durability is added)

Offensive skills [being discussed]

Steady Shot (More control when firing automatic weapons)

Breathing Techniques (Less movement when zoomed in with scoped weapons)

Defensive skills

Nursing (1 bandage gives 2 uses? Still working on this one)

Strong Willed (Pain jitters will fade naturally after 5 minutes or so)

Survivor skills [being discussed]

Camouflage (50% reduced detection by zombies)

Journal of a Zombie Slayer (Never panic. I assume panic sounds will reveal your location in the future)

PVP skills [being discussed]

Silent Hunter (Reduction in movement sound made that other players can hear)

KGB Handbook (Mouse over any player will show name even on hardcore servers)

Lucky (Players have a chance to drop an extra clip of their currently equipped weapon when killed)

Spawn rates would be similar to maps and other semi-rare items. Obviously, some books would be rarer than others. Whatever keeps it balanced and fun.

Anyways, let me know what you guys think. If it is possible with the current engine and looks good, let's get it added to Rockets things-to-do list. Thank you for reading.

Edit: Updated skills.

Edit 2: Updated description of the system.

[harryzhe 28]

i'm not trying to tell your idea sucks or anything, but let's look at it objectively and with a scrutinising eye.

Why is it that the skills and play styles of the actual players isnt enough on its own? I don't know how much of the game you've played, but everyone kind of works their own angle on it based on their strengths and preferences already.

What is lacking in the current game, what void is there that needs to be filled with a skill system?

Are our play styles and strengths not enough until the computer explicitly recognises them for us, based on chance findings of an item?

Why can't we learn and feel our way through the world by actually experiencing it ourselves, rather than through an item and a gui?

[Nighteyes 1]

Criticism is always welcome!

There is nothing wrong with playing as you want to play. But if you find a skill book for sniper weapons, you might consider switching to the next sniper rifle you find. They are only meant to influence a persons play style a little. If I found the butcher book, I would start hunting animals more. It would benefit my group more as well and instead of anyone getting meat from a cow, they would have me do it.

Edit: Let me expand on this.

Let's say you have reduced zombie detection and are walking with your group. Your group decides to send you in while they hold back and cover you. You go in, loot what you can, and bring it back to them. If someone finds extra pack size skill book, they might decide to give it to you so you can bring back more loot.

This gives the player a special role. And every person likes to feel special. It gives them a task to focus on and feel good about. That is what it adds to the game.

Edit 2: Also, if you die right now, it sucks for the group but they can just loot your corpse and just wait for you to show up again. With skills and specializations like I mentioned, the group will really feel the loss. They might lose a tracker/butcher, or a zombie slayer, or a looter. It adds even more to the group aspect as you have to decide whether to risk blowing your cover to save your group mate and get a horde of zombies on you or let him die and lose his skills.

[harryzhe 28]

well idk, deciding to switch to another weapon is a massive change in my opinion, weapons are what dictates a lot of your capabilities.

And it would benefit the group more when you're playing, yes. It's a double edged sword. While you're not online they might consider it a waste of an animal not to get the maximum possible yield from it.

But I don't feel like you really answered my questions,

What demand in the current game is this fulfilling? All i can get right now is that it would make certain players valuable to the group in different ways. That's great, but it's already a thing. The kit you have makes you useful in different ways. Before we found binoculars i would get called back to look through my CZ scope at distant things my teammates had spotted. It's unlikely you're going to find a map for everyone in the group, or a compass, or gps, or night vision, and you become reliant on eachother in that way - but it's even better, because there's no abstract book reading mechanic, and you can pass these abilities back and forth as an extra dimension to the tactics you can employ.

Sometimes it's a good idea to store valuables in your backpack and leave them with your friends while you scope out an area. This isn't possible if you have some skill they've become reliant on which is innate to your character.

The gear of any player really dictates their options and how valuable they are to the team and in what way. The important gear isn't easy to find... The "problem" seems to be already solved.

Or is it some other need that this idea aims to fulfill?

[Walkertxranger 0]

No to offensive or defensive skills, its not really something that would work for arma, for realism sake. You need to learn to shoot guns on your own, not let the game do it for you. However trade skills or survival skills would be interesting, you could give your character a bit of background. Make it so you can only absorb a few skills. For example if you get a machinist book or something you can repair vehicles better or with less items. Arma 2 is a realistic simulator so if some sort of skill system is added, it has to be realistic. Keep it limited to certain trade skills and stuff.

[Nighteyes 1]

Sometimes it's a good idea to store valuables in your backpack and leave them with your friends while you scope out an area. This isn't possible if you have some skill they've become reliant on which is innate to your character.

...

Or is it some other need that this idea aims to fulfill?

What you just described is kind of my point. You drop your pack and go scouting. You die, eh no big deal your group has your pack. Group member lives should be more important than just a pack mule and a gun. This is a survival simulator right? If this was real life, we would meet people with various skills. Having a member with an important skill die would be a big loss for the group. And I don't want people to pick their skills at the start as that would result in players trying to min/max their skills.

I hope that this answers your question. That is the role of these skills. As it stands, dying as a lone wolf is punishment enough. You will basically lose everything you have. In a group, they hold on to your stuff and you can get most of it back in 30 minutes. There should be something more that you can't get back even if you make it to your group/find your body in time.

[harryzhe 28]

hmm, alright... so what deters people from fighting over these "books?" if you managed to snag every one you encounter, you become omnipotent. if we disallow reading more than one book, its abstract and immersion breaking.

as it is now, finding a gun when you already hve one leaves you with the utmost motivation to get it in your friend's hands unless he has something better for your intentions, and theres nothing weird or gamey about it.

in your vision of the skill system, how do you implement it as something which doesnt encourage individualism?

its meant to be a team building thing, mixing guys with different skills, but it would be disadvantageous to travel in a group then because you could otherwhise just stack the skills on yourself and become a lone superhuman. it would have the opposite effect to what you intend.

[Nighteyes 1]

hmm' date=' alright... so what deters people from fighting over these "books?" if you managed to snag every one you encounter, you become omnipotent. if we disallow reading more than one book, its abstract and immersion breaking.

as it is now, finding a gun when you already hve one leaves you with the utmost motivation to get it in your friend's hands unless he has something better for your intentions, and theres nothing weird or gamey about it.

in your vision of the skill system, how do you implement it as something which doesnt encourage individualism?

its meant to be a team building thing, mixing guys with different skills, but it would be disadvantageous to travel in a group then because you could otherwhise just stack the skills on yourself and become a lone superhuman. it would have the opposite effect to what you intend.

[/quote']

I have been thinking about exactly this. ^^

My first thought was to limit the skills to 2 or 3 books max. Why 2 or 3? Well, the books are lengthy and you don't have time to read 15 books. The character is cramming these books and if you cram too much, you forget what you learned previously.

Also, if you check out the skills I have listed, even with all of them activated, you will not become some omnipotent god walking around 1 shotting everyone. The skills are to give a convenience and slight advantage to someone without. You will still be just as vulnerable to bandit traps and zombie hordes as the next guy. If a group gave all their books to one player and that player got sniped or something happened, that would be a huge waste. It would be much wiser to spread out the knowledge.

Also, limiting the number of books a player can use would create a market for them. People looking for a certain skill might ask to trade books or other valuable items with another player (or set up traps to steal it).

I updated in my guide to limit the books to semi-rare spawns like maps. In the week or so I have played, I have found 2 or 3 maps max, and those were always on other players.

Keep the questions or scrutiny coming and let's refine this system so that we can bring it to Rocket!

[ytman18@gmail.com 9]

I think a skill system, specifically one that would be lost upon character death, is something worth exploring. If it could be in a manner like EvE where it's time based learning... I'm all game.

[FrIEND (DayZ) 9]

Im not here to Mock you or anything.. but These kinds of things belong to fantasy MMORPG, not in a shooter games

[harryzhe 28]

friend, dont be so quick to dismiss it. i pretty much agree with you at this point, but i dont think its impossible to work out something that fits. for starters the proposed skills are kind of silly anf tongue-in-cheek which doesnt really reflect the grittiness of the game.

itd be KIND of neat if simply practising non combat skills got you better at them. like driving more might make your controls really gradually more sensitive, repairing could make you faster at it or capable of doing it with more common items... eating a "balanced diet" could have health benefits giving you a little more stamina and pain resistance... theres places you could go with it, as long as the skills dont touch anything to do with combat, stealth, observation or navigation. those things are already governed by the actual user's personal experience and dont need to be gauged in game.

but just to be clear- for the moment i think its a bad idea. i just think its worth debating it out to be sure.

[CaptainRayne 1]

I'm against any sort of skill or perk system. Right now what makes the difference between players is their intelligence. Thinking and using your head is how you win in all situations. I took out an M-16 wielding bandit with only my makarov and low on blood because I out thought him and took him by surprise. Not because I has somehow leveled up my skill. We were both equals on the playing field of intellect. Few games have a system where intelligence is the most vital thing to have and that is why I love this mod. It doesn't feel like a game. There isn't anything silly or gamey about it. It is brutal and unforgiving. You need a set of brass balls and an attentive mind to survive. It isn't about who looted the most skill books or something. It barely is about who has the best weapon because no matter their equipment if I am quick on my feet and react fast I can find a way to counter them and negate their advantange. Like getting hunted at night by a bandit with NVGs. Pop a flare and throw it at him. He is blinded and you have the upper hand. Sniper trying to get a shot on you? Move through cover and flank him. Out numbered and outgunned? Get inside and force them through a choke point.

What makes this game good is that it isn't like other games. It is boldly and unappologetically brazen in its harsh treatment of players. Just like in real life take away all the gear the only thing that makes a difference is the brain. Not some unrealistic skill number.

[harryzhe 28]

a good point. the game rewards real brains. a skill system effecting ANYTHING related to conflict or evasion would allow people to be "lazy" and use less real knowledge.

however, it would be ok to make the less simulated tasks more effiient, like car repair and cooking and medicine or eventually building.

[FrIEND (DayZ) 9]

CaptainRayne pretty much nailed it ;)

[imagelesskjc 35]

I don't want to speak for Rocket or the development team, but from what I've read of his articles they are trying to create a platform that is about experimentation and trying new ways of approaching our modern perception of the gaming medium (As evident in the recent patch, why not have a gazillion zombies running around that reproduce faster than rabbits?! It could be fun!).

Knowing that, I'd also like to say that skill systems have been done before in more than a hundred different ways. As it stands, the game is heavily reliant on the player, and what the player can do with the tools at his/hers disposal. For most, this is a game about storytelling and experience; including the finality of death. If there was a way to incorporate all those elements, I'd surely be a supporter of it.

[Nighteyes 1]

I don't want to speak for Rocket or the development team' date=' but from what I've read of his articles they are trying to create a platform that is about experimentation and trying new ways of approaching our modern perception of the gaming medium (As evident in the recent patch, why not have a gazillion zombies running around that reproduce faster than rabbits?! It could be fun!).

Knowing that, I'd also like to say that skill systems have been done before in more than a hundred different ways. As it stands, the game is heavily reliant on the player, and what the player can do with the tools at his/hers disposal. For most, this is a game about storytelling and experience; including the finality of death. If there was a way to incorporate all those elements, I'd surely be a supporter of it.

[/quote']

I think the skill system I mentioned would add a lot to ones personal story and work nicely with the finality of death. No group member could loot your personal skills. They are lost forever which raises the value of any team member.

[Hesher (DayZ) 2]

no, only skills you should have are your own. No magic book giving you magic advantages. You wanna get better at stealth? go ahead and learn it by practice.

[blackaciddevil 0]

Don't like the idea with a skill system. Maybe that Some players are slightly better at different things due to his pre apocalypse profession. That the player choose during character creation. Soldier has steady hands, a medic uses less medical supplie, a mechanic repair cars, building stuff with less parts, outdoorsman Can get more meat from animals etc.

[Nighteyes 1]

Don't like the idea with a skill system. Maybe that Some players are slightly better at different things due to his pre apocalypse profession. That the player choose during character creation. Soldier has steady hands' date=' a medic uses less medical supplie, a mechanic repair cars, building stuff with less parts, outdoorsman Can get more meat from animals etc.

[/quote']

So then how about the idea of classes when starting a new char that have various perks? The perks cannot be changed. Should the class be pickable? How about random?

[kaibz 8]

The idea of books to learn certain abilities like repair a car appeals to me, even if i'm not so keen on perks in general, i think OP has some good ideas.

[dallas 5195]

There's already a skill sytem in DayZ.

Map reading: Know how to read a map correctly.

Navigation: Know how to navigate with map, compas or without it using the sun or the stars.

Hunting: Know where to find aminals in the wild.

Scavenging: Know where to get basic supplies.

Treasure hunter: Know where to find military grade equimpent.

Advanced marksman: Unbind your hold breath from right mouse button and givt it it's own key. Learn the pros and cons of each weapon, how to range a targert, zero your rifle and kill your target from long distances.

Engineer: Learn who to use barbwire, repair cars/helicopters, where to find materials.

Lone Survivor: Learn to live of the land, without the help of others.

Social Survivor: Learn to trust other survivors, to share loot and to build groups that don't fall apart, when you come across some loot, everybody wants.

Advanced Bandit: Learn to ambush, camp crowded areas, learn to deceive and mislead to find the best equipped or easiest targets.

And the list goes on...

[SEM (DayZ) 5]

What CaptainRayne said

I also wanted to add that a lot of your abilities are OP like KGB Handbook and tbh we dont need to penaltize players for death im already like this when i die :C. If i had to lvl up and then die cuz i failed at smth i would be like (╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻.

[fapoo 2]

I had to register and post when I saw this thread. I have not played the game but have been watching it closely and reading about it alot.

I think a skill system for this game would be so good and would add for a much deeper gameplay experience.

I think it should work something like this. Similar to EVE online's skill system tied in to the book idea that I share with the OP.

-So I'm a survivor

- I find a book (e.g Bear Grylls Noob Guide To Gutting)

(Now I can choose to use/learn the book (usable once) or trade etc...)

-I choose to learn

-Book does not dissappear and I am informed by HUD or seperate "skills screen" that I am learning said skill and it will take me X amount of time (e.g. 1 hour)

-1 hour later I have learned the skill, book disappears and now I can gut wild animals for red meat)

Now if I meet another survivor I can choose to teach him my skill, either trade for items, one of their skills or just gift it.

But now for that stranger to learn it from me they must stay within X amount of metres (100m?) in my proximity for X amount of hours.

-If they go outside of that proximity progress stops, if they come back in, it resumes. If one of the player dies the trade is destroyed.

-After the skills are traded players can choose to kill each other, band up together further, or just simply part ways.

In relation to this thread - http://dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=3181

I think it's pretty interesting to see how people behave in this game. However I am also aware that people do not play the game as they would in a real world scenario. There are plenty of people outthere who will just troll for the lulz.

Which is why I think this skill system needs to be implemented because it would give an incentive for people to co-operate, like in a real life scenario.

I'm not saying there shouldn't be any bandits but there shouldn't be as much as there is now. And when the players start co-operating it will be far more interesting to see what happens.

[FrIEND (DayZ) 9]

Please Play the game atleast 250+ Hours before you start Suggesting anything..

(Yes, everyone has right for opinion and so on..) But this way you'd atleast understand what youre asking for and will it work or not

And why would you even want to have this system of "learning" How to Cut Beef or Fix Cars, when its allready there and you CAN DO IT.. This would only require unnessesary coding, Time and Effort From the mods.. taking it away from the IMPORTANT things that needs to be done

[Strategos (DayZ) 190]

I have to say I don't think a skill system would fit with the game as I understand it so far.

Its what you do with what you find that makes it.