Forests, Zeds and Player Choice

[Swi1ch 39]

Note; this is a long post that covers several concepts, but they're all concepts that are linked together at the core and thus I deemed it better to keep them in one post. I should also point out in advance that i'm aware the current zombie spawns was not intended, and my post has that in mind.

There's a lot of discussion on the forums about the zombie spawn rates, where they spawn and how many spawn. 1.5.7 has people fighting over whether it's too far, or not far enough, with some suggesting that the forests too should be rife with the undead.

Whilst most people agree that the zombie spawns need tweaking, I would like to suggest that keeping the forests clear of zombies under normal conditions is the far better option. The reason I believe this is that the core emotional resonance of DayZ is fear, and the risk/reward factors of overcoming or facing that fear. Fear relies on pacing and tension in order to be truly exciting.

Pacing and tension in the game right now are provided not be a crafted experience, but by the very nature and mechanics of the game. We've all that experience of laying in the treeline, observing a town from which we need to gather supplies. This is the downtime. We then approach the town, which builds tension. We're then in the centre of town, surrounded by zeds and the possibility of encountering hostile players. This is the height of tension. Then we either escape safely, providing relief and downtime, or the tension explodes into a fight, which ends with relief and downtime (If you survive).

Having the woods crawling with zombies would kill the pacing, and kill the tension. There needs to be places of relative safety in order to provide pacing. It also kills the risk/reward elements, as if you're in just as much danger in the woods where there are no supplies, it makes no sense to be there. This eventually leads to a constant high level of danger which becomes less scary, as there are no ups and downs and a player just gets used to it. Even more experienced players who may get used to the tension spikes of getting in and out of danger zones eventually gather more valuable loot, meaning the risk/reward levels for them fluctuate, as they have more to lose from raids and therefore providing that ever crucial tension.

These places of relative safety also provide a wonderful sense of player choice. You're not forced by immediate danger into breaking from the treeline into town; you have to choose to do it, and the knowledge that your choice might get you killed adds incredible amounts of tension. (Note; someone will likely point out that you have 'no choice' to enter a town because otherwise you will starve. This is true, but you're not typically going to immediately starve in five minutes, and thus the current danger level is low, and thus pacing and tension are currently low. You still have to make the choice to enter the town there and then).

Another thing that the current zombie spawn rates have caused is a severe difficulty increase for those players who want to go solo. The primary argument that i've seen for making it very difficult for lone players to survive is that it's realistic. It's a valid point, but it needs to scale more effectively with the benefits of working together, and this comes back to player choice, risk/reward and the tension involved with it.

Whilst a lone player has no one to cover him or aid him in a fight, a lone layer is significantly less likely to disturb the horde, attract the attention of hostile players, and consumes X times less food, water and ammunition. I'm by no means suggesting a player should be able to solo raid Cherno, but he should be able to quietly loot small towns like Pusta, or the outskirts of Zelenogorsk. In fact, a solo player should have a better risk/reward ratio on looting the outskirts of a big town than a group, as the amount of supplies looted would not be enough to sustain the group.

Thus I suggest a very in-depth look at how many zombies spawn and where. A small town like Pusta gives a very small amount of low-tier gear, and therefore the punishment for making a mistake should be much lower than making a mistake in Zelenogorsk, or Cherno. I believe the current zombie spawning (Again, yes, i'm aware it wasn't intentional), whilst a big step in the right direction, currently throws the risk/reward out of whack, as making a mistake in small towns gets you just as badly punished as in big towns. This could eventually lead to even more saturation of small areas like Cherno that we saw in 1.5.6, with multitudes of players converging there; if you're just as likely to get killed for small amount of bad stuff as you are for larger amounts of good stuff, then there is no longer a reason to go for the bad stuff and player choice is effectively ruined.

My last suggestion that ties into this is to remove zombie spawning within an X radius of active players. My first reason for this is purely mechanical; there are issues with the engine that means zombies can occasionally spot players through walls, and clearing a town, only to have a zombie pop in right in front of a player and aggro the whole horde means that you died not because of making a mistake or negligence, but essentially to RNG.

My second reason for this is because I believe it should be entirely reasonable for players co-operating together to enact a cordon on an area of a town, and make a relative safe haven (Pacing and tension, remember). This wouldn't have the same level of downtime as hanging out in the forests, as you have the mid-level tension of possible betrayals, bandit harass, and liabilities who may attract the horde to your location, but are compensated on the risk/reward by having easier access to supplies and support. This is of course tied into player choice as you will always be aware that you may take a bullet in the head by who you thought was a friend, a bullet in the head by a bandit who knew about your static position, or wanting a bullet in the head because some idiot fired his weapon when he shouldn't and brought the undead to your doorstep when you could have been eating your beans safely in the forest.

Well that's about it for my thoughts. Gratz if you didn't tl;dr it :D

[Tyshalle 0]

I pretty much agree. I haven't been playing long, but I will say that the thing I love most about the game so far is stalking around the woods, safely avoiding the towns and other players and zombies, and then slowly sneaking up into small buildings and farms and such that I come upon in my travels, looking for loot. Not having zombies in the woods allows the anticipation and anxiety to build the closer I get to these buildings. To me, the forests are a place of near-safety from zombies, where the real threat is happening upon other players who might be looking for a fight. If zombies started showing up everywhere, it'd kind of ruin the whole feel of the game for me.

[hazdude222 0]

Good post, I agree.

[ComboBreaker 9]

Solid argumentation - much better than "you are playing wrong,learn to adapt" thing that goes here and there.I dont currently play the game(Im currently downloading freshly bought Arma CO ^^) but from what I've seen in Lets plays , the ammount of zombies even in a small towns really breakes the whole risk/reward system.When its so easy to get swarmed in big and small towns its better to go into the big ones - and you might stumble upon a dead player with decent gear!

All in all,great post.The only thing I'd like to add is that a lone zombie wanderer in the forest would spice things up while not ruining the pace.Currently forest is a "safehouse" from zombies which somewhat makes sense,but you still should not get your guards down even there.

[gregor (DayZ) 95]

Imo, forests don't need to be so lack of food etc. There would be mushrooms, some berrys, nuts etc. Not many, you need find them, something like mushrooms after good rain...

Also you could be capable to make less visible campfire,( below ground level, with separate "tube" from the wind side, to give fresh air).

This needs more time than simple campfire, and a little work with shovel or knife, but give more safety, need less bonfire material and allow better to hide the traces.

Also would be good to make soup in mess-tin.

It seems a good example for carrying of mess-tin.

http://ah.milua.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/09/r8.jpg

Throw in found mushrooms and other foods, herbs (good if in the villages in the gardens were to find something edible).

Maybe later we see all these features more important in game.

Yes, someone can say, why they come in game and don't want immediately socialise. But in my opinion, some people need time to look around and find its way.

The more different peoples game can interest, the more variables can be in game's story.

What about zombies in forests, i too support, that mostly they could migrate on roads and open terrain.

[Swi1ch 39]

Solid argumentation - much better than "you are playing wrong' date='learn to adapt" thing that goes here and there.I dont currently play the game(Im currently downloading freshly bought Arma CO ^^) but from what I've seen in Lets plays , the ammount of zombies even in a small towns really breakes the whole risk/reward system.When its so easy to get swarmed in big and small towns its better to go into the big ones - and you might stumble upon a dead player with decent gear!

All in all,great post.The only thing I'd like to add is that a lone zombie wanderer in the forest would spice things up while not ruining the pace.Currently forest is a "safehouse" from zombies which somewhat makes sense,but you still should not get your guards down even there.

[/quote']

Oh for sure, I don't want to ever be in the game, look at the map and go 'OK, here are zombies (Point at town) here are no zombies (Point at forest)'.

I do however feel that having the forest as downtime would deliberately lower a player's awareness, thus making the odd one or two zombies spike the tension levels much, much harder than if the player was generally expecting zed. It would also cause the biggest danger (As a few zed are not a particular threat) in firing your weapon and altering potentially hostile players, which are one the reasons you're in the forests and not in a field or something in the first place.

[Blaise 1]

I agree with the tension/relief thing, but currently, the forests are TOO safe and provide too much safety. I don't want the forests to be crawling with zombies, forests should still stay the safest place to be at, but if you walk though the forest for one hour, you should at least encounter one or two wandering zombies.

[mooncabbage 2]

First of all, amazing post. Well thought out, and I really like the pacing angle. I hadn't thought of it that way, but it really is something that needs to be considered.

Re: Forests, I think they do need to be a safe haven like you have said. There is food in the form of animals you can hunt, but it's a bit tricky to get and animals are often close to towns anyway. In towns, you know there are zombies, so you can pretty much just crawl if you're patient and not worried about getting shot. If forests were full of zombies too, I'd have to crawl everywhere, and pacing would be shot, it'd all be exactly the same. As it is, I can skirt towns via forests (realistic), and run to move faster.

Which leads into another point that you missed about pacing. To recap, IN TOWN YOU KNOW THERE ARE ZOMBIES. So you are alert. In a forest you tend to let your guard down a bit, maybe looking around for bandits but for the most part not too worried. Woe to the survivor who stumbles into a hide, and doesn't notice hte zombies until too late. That's happened to me twice, and the second time I knew to look. It's really the only time in the game you actually get a shock. In towns you can be tense, and if a bandit shoots you you're usually already cursing at the restart screen, but zombie ambushes in the forest are terrifying, BECAUSE they're rare and unexpected.

RE: Zombie numbers, I don't think they're too bad. I've easily soloed lots of places, including Zelenogorsk. However I can certainly see your argument for the spawn radius. I think it would be nice if it was possible for a group of players to take over a building (town centre, hospital, church) and fortify it, as an inner city safe zone, from which they can go out and do raids. Some mechanism to stockpile goods would be great, not just to encourage cooperation, but to increase the danger level. Afterall, if you have collected lots of good stuff, who's to say the group down the road won't try to take it. The theory isn't perfect, because it relies on players maintaining their base over a reasonable period of time, but it does add to the PvE/PvP/COOP dynamics that make DayZ so interesting.

PS. I just realised Swi1ch kind of already made my point about forests, and made a good added point about alerting other players. Oh well.

---

I agree with the tension/relief thing' date=' but currently, the forests are TOO safe and provide too much safety. I don't want the forests to be crawling with zombies, forests should still stay the safest place to be at, but if you walk though the forest for one hour, you should at least encounter one or two wandering zombies.

[/quote']

Does noone spend enough time in forests to realise there are 3 zeds around every hunting blind? They're usually not immediately obvious either. I suppose if you knew where every blind was it'd be less threatening but still, it's something. I don't like the idea of zombies wandering all over the map. They'd be more of a nuisance than a threat, as individuals, and they don't let the zombie related tension levels drop low enough. Zombies are like cake. Some is nice, too much at once is great, but you don't want it all the time.

[dizzymagoo 19]

I think it only needs minor tweaking. When I go into a small town like Pusta and happen to piss a zombie off I can run into the woods and execute him without pissing off the rest of the horde. But as soon as I start to run away from a single zed in cherno. I piss off every single one. I like the new number of zombies because it really brings me to the edge of my chair inside of big cities and really bring patience to me. I can no longer run around in small towns. I have to creep everywhere I go.

Dizzymagoo