Melee Grappling

[Beizs 186]

So... Zombies. They aren't great, right?

 

People want zombies to be an actual threat. In order to do this, most people assume that greater numbers will do it. No problemo.

 

But in one of the infected servers that was up shortly on .58, I punched out two hordes. The first time, I did it with a couple other people and finished bleeding, but could have easily survived had I wanted to (I chose to let myself die for dramatic effect). The second one I punched out entirely by myself, without bleeding at all. I was hit once the entire time. There was twenty two zombies in this horde. I just kited them and head-punched one by one.

 

The thing is, in a real zombie apocalypse scenario, a single zombie can kill you easily if you're not aware. All it has to do is jump on you, knock you to the ground and start tearing into your throat.

 

So, how to fix the zombies, without even increasing server load by massively increasing zombie populations? Give them the ability to grab you. Some kind of quick time style event where one of the attacks is a swing which grabs at you. If you counter fast enough (simply hit a certain button, or punch it, whatever), then the hold is broken and has no effect. If you don't, you're held for a second and it bites you, causing you to bleed. If you don't react fast enough at all, you're knocked down onto the ground and have to kick it off by spamming a button (left click would be easiest) as it shreds your neck with its teeth. At this point, you're probably screwed.

 

Obviously there would need to be some randomness added to this (different grappling animations. Some where you don't get knocked to the ground, some where it jumps on you, some where it grabs you, etc) so that it doesn't just become boring and easy to deal with, as a matter of muscle memory. It'd need a lot of refinement to not feel clunky, but fluid and like a real fight. But it would make meleeing the zombies a lot harder and a lot more risky, as it should be. Punching out a large group of zombies wouldn't be an option (especially if they get sped up a little so you can't just make them beeline). You'd have to resort to guns for any more than a couple zeds and if you're not paying attention, you'll be punished.

 

Obviously this idea is really just a basic, cobbled together example. I'm sure that the team could come up with better ways of handling it. But zombies need to be able to grab you, knock you down and, given the opportunity, kill you easily by biting through your jugular (maybe this could be only once they've successfully pinned you) in order for them to become any kind of real threat. People might cry that they're OP or whatever, but really, it's more realistic, more authentic and would make the gameplay far more challenging.

 

Example of what I mean would be State of Decay. They did pretty well with the melee system, though obviously this would need to be a bit grittier and more realistic, without the cartoon like gore and exploding heads.

Edited August 14, 2015 by Beizs

[Conrad_The_Comrade 577]

I'm all over this idea, fighting zombies atm is very bland, and is boring just a tad bit more each time, since it's pretty much the same side step and swing. If this can be pulled off, I'd love to see it.

[OnionOfShame 138]

A grappling system could be pretty nice and I agree that it would be better than what we have now. However there are a few problems with it. To list a few:

1. Any sort of event that locks the player in an animation, position, etc. would he a nightmare to deal with in DayZ's current state. By this I mean not that it would be very difficult (although it could/should be), but that the game's current state couldn't handle it. It currently suffers from severe issues of position desync, rubber banding, lag, et cetera. You think being hit by a zombie after you move 10m away is annoying, wait until instead of a simple punch, you're pulled back and into some sort of struggling animation. Of course this issue is more of a timed one, as the anticipated improvement to server performance should eliminate the issue.

2. Some people, myself included, simply don't like quick-time events. I understand why some people enjoy them, but to me they just feel unrealistic and immersion-breaking. To me they just interrupt the flow of gameplay and pull me out of what's going on, but again, I realize that not all people feel this way.

Personally I would rather have a more realistic overhaul to the movement system we already have than a new quick-time event system, but that's just my opinion.

Edited August 15, 2015 by OnionOfShame

[Beizs 186]

A grappling system could be pretty nice and I agree that it would be better than what we have now. However there are a few problems with it. To list a few:

1. Any sort of event that locks the player in an animation, position, etc. would he a nightmare to deal with in DayZ's current state. By this I mean not that it would be very difficult (although it could/should be), but that the game's current state couldn't handle it. It currently suffers from severe issues of position desync, rubber banding, lag, et cetera. You think being hit by a zombie after you move 10m away is annoying, wait until instead of a simple punch, you're pulled back and into some sort of struggling animation. Of course this issue is more of a timed one, as the anticipated improvement to server performance should eliminate the issue.

2. Some people, myself included, simply don't like quick-time events. I understand why some people enjoy them, but to me they just feel unrealistic and immersion-breaking. To me they just interrupt the flow of gameplay and pull me out of what's going on, but again, I realize that not all people feel this way.

Personally I would rather have a more realistic overhaul to the movement system we already have than a new quick-time event system, but that's just my opinion.

 

Firstly, I agree with you pretty much 100%.

 

However, with the new character controller, the animation thing will no longer be an issue (and the devs will have a better system to play with).

 

With the desync etc, hopefully, that's not a permanent problem. I agree that it'd suck to have that happen with a zombie that was desyncing, but considering the fact they're specifically working on the performance with the zombies and their impact on the server, hopefully, that won't be an issue for much longer.

 

I absolutely get where you're coming from with quick time events, and actually agree with you. However, with a simple grabbing system, I don't really know how else it could be achieved. The zombie swings for you. If it connects, you have I dunno, half a second to punch the zombie/left click to counter the grapple entirely. If you take more than a second, it locks deals extra damage. If you take any longer than that, it knocks you to the ground, at which point, you can struggle out or die, basically. It's a bit more of a fluid quicktime event and could (assuming the desync is sorted) see it coming fairly easily and avoid the attack without much of an issue. The main thing would be if a zombie came at you from behind. Realistically, you'd be fucked if a zombie got behind you. To be honest, it could only be possible if the zombie was behind you.

 

I think that the game really needs something along these lines. I really don't mind the implementation or the method of countering so long as it actually makes the zombies a threat - even a single one, if it catches you unaware. I don't really think that the quicktime events themselves are what pull me out of the immersion, but the way they're handled. If they feel kind of janky, or out of place, they definitely pull me out of the game. But if they're fluid and work well, they're absolutely fine. A bad example would be TWD quicktime events, which are pretty meh. A good example would be, as I mentioned before, State of Decay. I also remember, I think it was maybe Call of Duty 3, where there was a quicktime event fairly early in the game where some guy jumped on you with a knife and knocked you over. All you had to do was spam a button a couple times, as you kicked him off. If the animations were done well and it was handled properly with the actual connections etc, I think even just a quicktime event could actually work pretty well.

 

Not sure though. Like I said, I'm sure the devs can probably come up with something far better than I can. Or the community if we put our minds together. Again, though. I just really think the game needs something like this. Otherwise, no matter what, the zombies won't quite be there. If someone is within swiping distance, I can grab them. If I grab them, I'm instantly harder to deal with than if I simply throw a punch at them - and the current attacks that the zombies use take me out of the game far more than a good grappling and biting system would. I'm just trying to think of games that have good grappling mechanics. A few wrestling games or something could be a good 'research project' for the team in that regard.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Beizs

[Beizs 186]

Just to add to this, as they are planning on adding animal companions, this kind of mechanic is, in my opinion, even more necessary. I assume the companions will basically just be dogs. The ONLY way a dog is going to be able to defend itself properly is by barreling into someone, taking them by surprise and knocking them down, before continuing to shred their faces. Just like zombies. Just throwing it out there - this system would kill three birds with one stone; improving zombies, improving meele PVP and animal companions.

Edited August 15, 2015 by Beizs