[Suggestion?]Gun support, more advanced scopes and accounting for windage?

[Garvar 1]

Hello guys, so I did some searching around this and couldn't much. Atleast not an answer from the devs and what their thought about all this are.

 

So, I would really enjoy if they made "sniping" a bit more hard. Possibly by adding wind and an appropiate tool? And of course the ability to account for it on the scope, which brings me I into my next subject!

Maybe making the scopes in game more advanced? Perhaps by actually making us use our heads by using the turrets on our scopes? Instead of the ridiculously easy way of zeroing in 100m increments. This would make the "sniper" a bit slower but would increase the his overall accuracy aswell. Perhaps make a range chart with a pen and paper? Pretty much like what ACE has, but a "bit" dumbed down version.

 

Ah, supported shooting? Pretty much what ARMA3 has, attaching a bipod to the ground or a flat surface, like on the roof of a car. Anything with some more visual feedback than what we had with the atlas bipod+mosin combo. Another idea is that when you have deployed a bipod you will then use your left hand (since you are a righty ingame, no intent of discrimintaing you lefties out there) to stabilize the backend of your weapon.

Again this is just something that I thought of last night when playing, and I would like to hear what you guys think. And hopefully maybe an answer from a dev.

Could have missed something like a video or somethign where they talk about this, if so please enlighten :).

 

Thank you for reading and take care in Chernarus!

 

Edit:

 

Additional ideas:

Another idea would be have the hunting/military scopes zoom in like the acog where you can still see your surroundings but blurry!

Adding a safety to weapons. -leader.one

Edited August 3, 2015 by Garvar

[OnionOfShame 138]

I definitely support the supported shooting mechanic. A mechanic like this is essential for a game like DayZ in my opinion. Wind compensation could be interesting too, but it would have to be done right. Programming ALL of the grass to move to simulate the wind speed and direction would be taxing on performance, so it may not be possible, but it would be cool to see.

On zeroing, personally I would prefer to keep the "magic 100m incriment zeroing" we have. I realize that this is simplified and unrealistic. But from a gameplay standpoint, there is no point. No one is going to learn how to do the math in their heads except maybe a select few. Everyone will just print/write out a ballistic conversion chart or display it on their second monitor. While it's a decent idea and it could be fun, personally I don't support ideas that encourage more metagaming.

Edited July 30, 2015 by OnionOfShame

[pale1776 375]

I definitely support the supported shooting mechanic. A mechanic like this is essential for a game like DayZ in my opinion. Wind compensation could be interesting too, but it would have to be done right. Programming ALL of the grass to move to simulate the wind speed and direction would be taxing on performance, so it may not be possible, but it would be cool to see.

On zeroing, personally I would prefer to keep the "magic 100m incriment zeroing" we have. I realize that this is simplified and unrealistic. But from a gameplay standpoint, there is no point. No one is going to learn how to do the math in their heads except maybe a select few. Everyone will just print/write out a ballistic conversion chart or display it on their second monitor. While it's a decent idea and it could be fun, personally I don't support ideas that encourage more metagaming.

Well IRL I have a ballistics book that compiles all my personal shooting data as well as the ballistics chart. It's called a dope book, pretty much any formula or how to do X is written down in it.

I use it for my competitive shooting, set to MY rifle and the ammunition I shoot (165 Grain Federal ammo with a Sierra Match King tip)

Snipers use one for their rifle and knowledge.

If you've ever looked at a box of ammunition, it shows bullet drop and velocity (well mine do anyway) at 100 yard increments. It's really not that hard to write this stuff down, I have most of it memorized as far as bullet drop and wind drift. I need a pen and paper for the Coriolis Effect but then again, I'm not shooting at 1600 meters lol.

And even if aYou deem it useless, at least it will piss off some of these l33t sn1p3rs off and make it a bit harder to shoot. Oh, and try ACE for ArmA. It's definitely not something you can memorize, you sight your scope and then turn it X clicks for how far past your sighting range and (You never want to adjust for wind IRL, since it changes so much and your round still leaves the barrel straigh until tbe wind affects it, its better to just use a mildot/ know how far to hold technique.

[Garvar 1]

Thank you for reading OnionofShame :)

 

To be honest I have no idea what wind would cost in performance, as you said may not be possible. 

 

About the zeroing my thought behind this was that when you pick up a rifle with a scope kind of make a commitment to learn how to use it and carefully plan each shot. 

 

These 3 mechanics would, the way I see it, keep a good balance if you know what you are doing and how to handle that specific rifle and scope combo also feel very satisfying when you hit your mark. 

But this guy that is not at all interested in marksmanship can still pull off 500m+ shots by just tapping his page up key to 500 and get a clean killshot.

 

As I said, I understand what you are saying.

 

 

 

Another idea would be have the hunting/military scopes zoom in like the acog where you can still see your surroundings but blurry!

[Garvar 1]

Thank you for stopping by Owen :).

 

Maybe missed, but what do you think about these 3 mechanics?

[-Gews- 7443]

On zeroing, personally I would prefer to keep the "magic 100m incriment zeroing" we have. I realize that this is simplified and unrealistic. But from a gameplay standpoint, there is no point. No one is going to learn how to do the math in their heads except maybe a select few. Everyone will just print/write out a ballistic conversion chart or display it on their second monitor.

There is no math necessary, just remembering a few numbers. It's the same as how people sniped with the DMR or SVD in the mod, except instead of holding over the target a certain amount for certain ranges (ie 2.5 mils for 600 m), they press "PageUp" a certain amount (ie 25 click for 600 m). I don't see the problem with people making notes to remember this.

[hekeetsu 86]

On zeroing, personally I would prefer to keep the "magic 100m incriment zeroing" we have. I realize that this is simplified and unrealistic. But from a gameplay standpoint, there is no point. No one is going to learn how to do the math in their heads except maybe a select few. Everyone will just print/write out a ballistic conversion chart or display it on their second monitor. While it's a decent idea and it could be fun, personally I don't support ideas that encourage more metagaming.

The problem with sniping now is that everyone can do that. Zeroing is easy. I understand that if it was more realistic people would print the charts, but is that a bad thing? If it wasn't simplified, those who want to be a sniper would print them. Those who don't want to will not. It just would make experienced snipers more valuable as everybody won't be equally good. Atleast without the the ballistic charts.

[OnionOfShame 138]

The problem with sniping now is that everyone can do that. Zeroing is easy. I understand that if it was more realistic people would print the charts, but is that a bad thing? If it wasn't simplified, those who want to be a sniper would print them. Those who don't want to will not. It just would make experienced snipers more valuable as everybody won't be equally good. Atleast without the the ballistic charts.

I'm not against it because it would make sniping harder, in fact I would definitely like to see sniping become more challenging. I don't support this idea because I don't support metagaming and I think DayZ has more than enough already, mostly in the form of browser maps and TeamSpeak. If you ("you" being both the character and the player) do not actually KNOW something you should not have it available to you. In the case of TeamSpeak, in-game you cannot hear the voices of your squad in your head because that would be unrealistic. So in effect, the ability to use TeamSpeak or other software to communicate with teammates breaks the game and immersion somewhat. As it is impossible to regulate this in the game, this type of metagaming is inevitable. So what I'm trying to say is, I support realistic and challenging features for this game, but not if they inevitably make more metagaming essential. We have more than enough of that already.

Edited August 1, 2015 by OnionOfShame

[-Gews- 7443]

I'm not against it because it would make sniping harder, in fact I would definitely like to see sniping become more challenging. I don't support this idea because I don't support metagaming and I think DayZ has more than enough already, mostly in the form of browser maps and TeamSpeak. If you ("you" being both the character and the player) do not actually KNOW something you should not have it available to you. In the case of TeamSpeak, in-game you cannot hear the voices of your squad in your head because that would be unrealistic. So in effect, the ability to use TeamSpeak or other software to communicate with teammates breaks the game and immersion somewhat. As it is impossible to regulate this in the game, this type of metagaming is inevitable. So what I'm trying to say is, I support realistic and challenging features for this game, but not if they inevitably make more metagaming essential. We have more than enough of that already.

I don't get this. What's unrealistic about making notes on a piece of paper? It's hardly the same as Teamspeak or DayZDB. Are we going to not implement or remove all sorts of crafting, farming, cooking, base-building and other mechanics because you can look up how to do it? Any feature that requires knowledge or learning is going to be open to some kind of metagaming. Even the current zeroing system was open to metagaming as evidenced by all the "what is zeroing" posts that used to pop up. This is just a matter of making the scopes work like they're supposed to and fixing certain problems, the current system was borderline acceptable for ARMA 2 but makes no sense when scopes can be swapped between weapons. Dismissing any features that require knowledge or learning doesn't make sense to me.

[OnionOfShame 138]

I don't get this. What's unrealistic about making notes on a piece of paper? It's hardly the same as Teamspeak or DayZDB. Are we going to not implement or remove all sorts of crafting, farming, cooking, base-building and other mechanics because you can look up how to do it? Any feature that requires knowledge or learning is going to be open to some kind of metagaming. Even the current zeroing system was open to metagaming as evidenced by all the "what is zeroing" posts that used to pop up. This is just a matter of making the scopes work like they're supposed to and fixing certain problems, the current system was borderline acceptable for ARMA 2 but makes no sense when scopes can be swapped between weapons. Dismissing any features that require knowledge or learning doesn't make sense to me.

Okay, let's say you're in a real-life version of the situation we see in DayZ. You find a powerful scoped bolt-action rifle and decide to use it. While you have some experience with firearms, you have not fired at the extreme ranges allowed by the scope, and decide to learn how. You also found a manual on ballistics and trajectory, and summarize the most important information on a few pages of notes so that you can quickly and easily access it if need be.

Now, how do you look at these notes? You have to take them out of your pocket, unfold them, and read them. Writing them down on the paper does not allow you to magically see the notes without taking them out. Furthermore, you need to reserve some space in your pocket or backpack to hold them.

That's how it would be unrealistic. Yes, it would be possible to write the info down on a paper in-game. But be honest, do you think a single person will bother doing that? Just like the maps and walkie-talkies we already have, metagaming is significantly more convenient and viable so that's what people will do.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Okay, let's say you're in a real-life version of the situation we see in DayZ. You find a powerful scoped bolt-action rifle and decide to use it. While you have some experience with firearms, you have not fired at the extreme ranges allowed by the scope, and decide to learn how. You also found a manual on ballistics and trajectory, and summarize the most important information on a few pages of notes so that you can quickly and easily access it if need be.

Now, how do you look at these notes? You have to take them out of your pocket, unfold them, and read them. Writing them down on the paper does not allow you to magically see the notes without taking them out. Furthermore, you need to reserve some space in your pocket or backpack to hold them.

That's how it would be unrealistic. Yes, it would be possible to write the info down on a paper in-game. But be honest, do you think a single person will bother doing that? Just like the maps and walkie-talkies we already have, metagaming is significantly more convenient and viable so that's what people will do.

Maps are actually quite useful if you just need to check quickly in-game rather than tabbing out and thus making yourself vulnerable. However, yeah, the existence of full, detailed online maps that give you so much more information does make them less useful, but there's nothing you can do to stop it. Walkie talkies are a better example but it was talked about a while back that they'd be expanded upon allowing people to have their own "radio stations" and whatnot, so they may have some purpose in the future (and even if they don't, they're still fun for those who want to talk to randoms or really immerse themselves)

 

Gews kind of addressed what you said anyway - sure, there may be no great reason to write range notes on ingame paper, but that doesn't mean that implementing a system of advanced ballistics is a bad thing. People could use whatever methods they wanted to account for shooting, the point is that more realistic sniping mechanics are beneficial because it wouldn't just be 'point - click - dead' like it often is now.

 

Metagaming is, for all intents and purposes, an inevitability, so it isn't really compelling when it's your sole argument against a feature being added.

[-Gews- 7443]

Okay, let's say you're in a real-life version of the situation we see in DayZ. You find a powerful scoped bolt-action rifle and decide to use it. While you have some experience with firearms, you have not fired at the extreme ranges allowed by the scope, and decide to learn how. You also found a manual on ballistics and trajectory, and summarize the most important information on a few pages of notes so that you can quickly and easily access it if need be.

Now, how do you look at these notes? You have to take them out of your pocket, unfold them, and read them. Writing them down on the paper does not allow you to magically see the notes without taking them out. Furthermore, you need to reserve some space in your pocket or backpack to hold them.

That's how it would be unrealistic. Yes, it would be possible to write the info down on a paper in-game. But be honest, do you think a single person will bother doing that? Just like the maps and walkie-talkies we already have, metagaming is significantly more convenient and viable so that's what people will do.

 

And the alternative... is to make every character somehow "know" the exact elevation for all combinations of weapons, cartridges and scopes and be able to change it to the desired settings instantly. Not only that but many of the feats accomplished are simply not physically possible (200+ MOA elevation out of a scope which should 10 times less travel) and don't make a good use of the ballistics system. If people were into heavy sniping they could just tape the chart to their rifle or scope.

 

 

So, like I mentioned above, if you've used the DMR or SVD from the mod, you had a problem, in terms of metagaming, with the way these weapons functioned? The way the DMR worked is the exact same thing being discussed here. If we get wind, that's going to be metagamed with charts and tutorials as well. The same thing for mil dots. So, I don't really get it... slightly unrealistic, sure, the same as with almost every single mechanic in the game. 

 

But the solution to some slightly unrealistic metagaming... is to dumb down that portion of the game and make it a dozen times less realistic and engaging? 

[pale1776 375]

And the alternative... is to make every character somehow "know" the exact elevation for all combinations of weapons, cartridges and scopes and be able to change it to the desired settings instantly. Not only that but many of the feats accomplished are simply not physically possible (200+ MOA elevation out of a scope which should 10 times less travel) and don't make a good use of the ballistics system. If people were into heavy sniping they could just tape the chart to their rifle or scope.

So, like I mentioned above, if you've used the DMR or SVD from the mod, you had a problem, in terms of metagaming, with the way these weapons functioned? The way the DMR worked is the exact same thing being discussed here. If we get wind, that's going to be metagamed with charts and tutorials as well. The same thing for mil dots. So, I don't really get it... slightly unrealistic, sure, the same as with almost every single mechanic in the game.

But the solution to some slightly unrealistic metagaming... is to dumb down that portion of the game and make it a dozen times less realistic and engaging?

Gews is right on. IRL I have a ballistics chart and range/wind formula. I've got it onto a blank business card and laminated it. It stays on the side of my stock in between the straps on my Allen cartridge holder. Am I "metagaming" real life shooting? I suppose my long range shooting is just a bigass piece of metagaming huh?

Snipers use a dope book/range chart. Varmint hunters out west use them.

And what's that thing about DayZ? THIS IS DAYZ, THIS IS YOUR STORY. So do tell me, why if its part of MY story I should be forbidden from writing down the ballistics chart just because of the cries of a few people.

I wonder, how many of these people against it also cry for the removal of 3rd person. How many of them cry for the devs to stop adding new weapons and clothing because they deem it unnecessary?

[grimlok 77]

I wonder, how many of these people against it also cry for the removal of 3rd person. How many of them cry for the devs to stop adding new weapons and clothing because they deem it unnecessary?

A realistic handling of fire arms have nothing to do with 3rd person, moot point.

 

Adding new weapons and clothing have nothing to do with wanting realistic handling of fire arms.  Again, moot point.

[pale1776 375]

A realistic handling of fire arms have nothing to do with 3rd person, moot point.

Adding new weapons and clothing have nothing to do with wanting realistic handling of fire arms. Again, moot point.

You even read bro? I typed a bigass response as to why the realistic sighting of scopes should be added and you focus on the last paragraph.

10/10

[grimlok 77]

You even read bro? I typed a bigass response as to why the realistic sighting of scopes should be added and you focus on the last paragraph.

10/10

I don't care about your babbling response.  Your last points brought nothing to the thread.  Everyone knows, except for the CoD players, that the weapons need adjusting.  

 

There was no point bringing 3pp into the conversation.  Period.  End of discussion.

Edited August 2, 2015 by leader.one

[pale1776 375]

I don't care about your babbling response. Your last points brought nothing to the thread. Everyone knows, except for the CoD players, that the weapons need adjusting.

There was no point bringing 3pp into the conversation. Period. End of discussion.

Well my babbling response is spot on my friend, I suppose your total spam comments that contributed nothing when you decided to attack me was sssoooooo creative to the thread.

And yes it did pertain to it, the people who have said to keep the 100m increment zeroing have also posted in threads demanding 3pp be removed. It's that magic button that lets you find content by user ;)

And if you were such a big shot on ballistics and realism then you would have been more focused on my constructive response, not starting a damn flame war.

But 10/10 would get criticized for non construction by guy who contributed nothing again.

[grimlok 77]

Well my babbling response is spot on my friend, I suppose your total spam comments that contributed nothing when you decided to attack me was sssoooooo creative to the thread.

And yes it did pertain to it, the people who have said to keep the 100m increment zeroing have also posted in threads demanding 3pp be removed. It's that magic button that lets you find content by user ;)

And if you were such a big shot on ballistics and realism then you would have been more focused on my constructive response, not starting a damn flame war.

But 10/10 would get criticized for non construction by guy who contributed nothing again.

Your babbling response was agreeing with someone then saying people who don't want realistic weapons are those who want 3pp removed which would in fact be wrong.  People who want realistic weapons want 3pp removed so it adds to the "realism" of the game but again, 3pp is not what this thread is about.

 

You want contribution, more weapon shake(not sway) from running for your life, being scared, from freezing, for not being a marine, remove the zeroing that is in game with a proper scope zeroing, add wind, damage to weapons, damage to the bullets, jamming, water logged, a safety.  Want me to go on?

Edited August 3, 2015 by leader.one

[pale1776 375]

Your babbling response was agreeing with someone then saying people who don't want realistic weapons are those who want 3pp removed which would in fact be wrong. People who want realistic weapons want 3pp removed so it adds to the "realism" of the game but again, 3pp is not what this thread is about.

You want contribution, more weapon shake(not sway) from running for your life, being scared, from freezing, for not being a marine, remove the zeroing that is in game with a proper scope zeroing, add wind, damage to weapons, damage to the bullets, jamming, water logged, a safety. Want me to go on?

Lol if you keep going on you should make another suggestion thread instead of hijacking this one :p

Wind and weapon damage is coming, but the waterlogging and safeties sound nice

[grimlok 77]

Lol if you keep going on you should make another suggestion thread instead of hijacking this one :P

Wind and weapon damage is coming, but the waterlogging and safeties sound nice

Lol, why would I make another suggestion thread just to have that green titled guy come in with his smug attitude of, "Your search results wielded blah blah returns, locking".  I personally would like the weapons to be as close to their real life counterpart as possible.  Including attachments.

Edited August 3, 2015 by leader.one

[pale1776 375]

Lol, why would I make another suggestion thread just to have that green titled guy come in with his smug attitude of, "Your search results wielded blah blah returns, locking". I personally would like the weapons to be as close to their real life counterpart as possible. Including attachments.

I like the green titled guy ;-;

I hate games where attachments give unrealistic perks. A bipod when standing throws your aim off since its an extra half a pound to a pound on the end of your gun. A recoil compensator shouldn't increase accuracy somehow, just reduce the muzzle rise. And that 6 pounds of tacticool shit on a rifle is gonna hurt you more than it helps you

[Garvar 1]

Actually, having a safety sounds nice :)

 

Edtiting first post to update it a bit. 

[gibonez 3633]

Really do hope we they get rid of the magical 100m zeroing on the scopes that are not weapon/ ammo specific.

 

Mil/MOA elevation adjustments would make long range shooting more skillful and at the same time allow for more player control. The easymode aspects of the game including the gunplay need to be eliminated.

[Garvar 1]

Bump