Has the battle been won?

[Katana67 2907]

A real fault on the devs is not rolling out several AK pattern weapons that aren't rifles (or course they may still do that at a later date). For example if there was a Vityaz,Saiga 12,AKM, AK-74, and AK-101 in game then we have a family of weapons that can be used in several different roles and various calibers, but accept the same accessories such as the PSO,KOBRA, and share buttstocks,handguards, and in some cases muzzle breaks. This is not including picatinny rail mounted optics,flashlights and laser aiming modules.

 

I don't really see this as a fault. There's nothing that suffers by not having a Saiga 12 or Vityaz SN in terms of the other AK-pattern weapons, especially with regard to attachments.

 

Personally, I'd rather the attachment-savvy weapons be 1913 compatible. The AK-pattern attachments should be weapon-specific, at the premium of being more common.

 

I want NATO weapons to be ubiquitous in terms of sharing attachments (through a generic 1913 interface). Other WP or European weapons, can be set aside for "weapon-specific" attachments in my opinion.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Katana67

[stielhandgranate 480]

Really? This type of stuff is still in the water supply? Just off the top of my head...

 

Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Czech Republic, Germany [formerly East/West], Georgia, are all former Soviet countries which have standard-issue service rifles chambered in 5.56x45.

 

It's also worth mentioning that ten former Warsaw Pact countries are a part of NATO now.

 

To be fair none of those nations use the AK-101. Some of them use 5.56 is significant numbers but use other 5.56 weapons like Galils,G36s and M4A3s. It is a weapon with no major buyers at the moment. While I don't mind it's presence as it may no longer be seen as a "replacement" for the AK-74, its commonalty is as logical as a Remington ACR or Beretta ARX 100.

[Katana67 2907]

To be fair none of those nations use the AK-101. Some of them use 5.56 is significant numbers but use other 5.56 weapons like Galils,G36s and M4A3s. It is a weapon with no major buyers at the moment. While I don't mind it's presence as it may no longer be seen as a "replacement" for the AK-74, its commonalty is as logical as a Remington ACR or Beretta ARX 100.

 

I wasn't combating the assertion that nobody uses the AK-101. I was combating the assertion that 5.56x45 is not used widely in former-Soviet/Warsaw Pact countries.

[stielhandgranate 480]

I don't really see this as a fault. There's nothing that suffers by not having a Saiga 12 or Vityaz SN in terms of the other AK-pattern weapons, especially with regard to attachments.

 

Let me backpedal and rephrase as "lost opportunity" as the aforementioned weapons share more accessories and parts than their nato counterparts and would fit well in the location. Tis counters the issue of having to loot for extended periods without finding usable equipment for your shooter.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Dale Gribble

[gibonez 3633]

A real fault on the devs is not rolling out several AK pattern weapons that aren't rifles (or course they may still do that at a later date). For example if there was a Vityaz,Saiga 12,AKM, AK-74, and AK-101 in game then we have a family of weapons that can be used in several different roles and various calibers, but accept the same accessories such as the PSO,KOBRA, and share buttstocks,handguards, and in some cases muzzle breaks. This is not including picatinny rail mounted optics,flashlights and laser aiming modules.

 

I like this.

 

While having a wide variety of AK patterned weapons they can and should feel vastly different due to different muzzle velocities, the awesome weapon inertia system, recoil impulses and hopefully in the future a weight and stamina system that determines what your mobility is depending on how heavy your character is.

 

Not only would the world feel authentic and very eastern the weapons would all feel unique and different.

[AlexLM 31]

Really? This type of stuff is still in the water supply? Just off the top of my head...

 

Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Czech Republic, Germany [formerly East/West], Georgia, are all former Soviet countries which have standard-issue service rifles chambered in 5.56x45.

 

It's also worth mentioning that ten former Warsaw Pact countries are a part of NATO now.

To be fair these states only have 5.56x45 weapons because they are in NATO (except for Georgia, which should be in NATO, but was shafted to avoid offending the evil Russians) - the other former pact states will be slowly switching to the same regulation NATO calibers. I think Chernarus is more like a Moldova sort of state - same rough population and size etc. Moldova is extremely poor. I have just got back from Moldova and it looks like Chernarus IRL. They will not be moving past Soviet stocks for some time, unless given free money to do so.

[Katana67 2907]

Let me backpedal and rephrase as "lost opportunity" as the aforementioned weapons share more accessories and parts then their nato counterparts and would fit well in the location.

 

Which is where I disagree.

 

I don't think Warsaw Pact weapons should "share more accessories" than NATO weapons. I think they should be less flexible, with the benefit of being easier to find/maintain/supply.

 

Modularity is an advantage (although not as big an advantage as some might assert), one to be justified by rarity in my opinion. If AK-pattern weapons can share all these attachments, then what would be the point of having a rare Mk 17 or some such which is every bit as modular now (in terms of DayZ) as the AK family?

 

Warsaw Pact gear should have more common attachments, at the expense of being less ubiquitous.

 

NATO gear should have rarer attachments, with the benefit of being more generic/ubiquitous.

[Grimey Rick 3417]

No it is necessary, this game was marketed as a hardcore experience and an "anti game", not some causal garbage like unturned. If ammunition authenticity is "unimportant" to you then it would benefit you to try some other causal games that won't make you think too hard.

Furthermore, to use a cliche phrase, its an alpha, the morphine mechanic is a placeholder and may be adjusted or made more difficult before release. I would bet having to find a compatible blood-type to make a transfusion is really difficult in your gaming experience.

When was DayZ marketed as a hardcore gaming experience? Or the anti-game? Lol. It's the fucking DayZ Mod without a HUD, lol. TEH REALISMZ.

DayZ is just as casual as Unturned, sorry to break it to you. You can gear up in DayZ as fast as you can in Unturned. Neither of us has any idea what DayZ will be like upon release, but from everything that's been happening so far, I'm willing to bet it won't be anywhere NEAR a hardcore experience.

Anyway, this isn't a debate about Unturned, it was merely an example. I have no qualms with the developers adding in different ammunition types to support the various guns implemented into the game, I merely take issue with the claims of "BUT REALISM"!

EDIT: Bbl, going to play some "anti-game". LOL

Edited September 6, 2014 by Grimey Rick

[Katana67 2907]

To be fair these states only have 5.56x45 weapons because they are in NATO (except for Georgia, which should be in NATO, but was shafted to avoid offending the evil Russians) - the other former pact states will be slowly switching to the same regulation NATO calibers. I think Chernarus is more like a Moldova sort of state - same rough population and size etc. Moldova is extremely poor. I have just got back from Moldova and it looks like Chernarus IRL. They will not be moving past Soviet stocks for some time, unless given free money to do so.

 

My point is that there's no hard divide anymore. The Berlin Wall fell.

 

Eastern European, former-Soviet, former-Yugoslavian, Caucasian, and former-Warsaw Pact countries have incredible diversity in the weapons they use.

 

So it's inaccurate to suggest, essentially, that all of them only use AKs in 7.62x39/5.45x39. When the evidence indicates clearly to the contrary.

 

Chernarus is fictional. It, to me, appears to be an amalgam of Bosnia/Kosovo, Chechnya, Georgia, Czech Republic, and Ukraine. Which all have distinct circumstances, landscapes, and conflicts in the former two.

 

There is no monolithic "Eastern Bloc" which all uses one weapon platform or caliber.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Katana67

[stielhandgranate 480]

My point is that there's no hard divide anymore. The Berlin Wall fell.

 

Eastern European, former-Soviet, former-Yugoslavian, Caucasian, and former-Warsaw Pact countries have incredible diversity in the weapons they use.

 

So it's inaccurate to suggest, essentially, that all of them only use AKs in 7.62x39/5.45x39. When the evidence indicates clearly to the contrary.

 

Chernarus is fictional. It, to me, appears to be an amalgam of Bosnia/Kosovo, Chechnya, Georgia, Czech Republic, and Ukraine. Which all have distinct circumstances, landscapes, and conflicts in the former two.

 

There is no monolithic "Eastern Bloc" which all uses one weapon platform. 

 

Well, it would be welcoming to see weapons that fit the locale like the Galil or the RK95 Tp. I think some of the others see the AK-101 as fitting as one of those AR platform sporter rifles chambered in 7.62x39, that is not well at all. I don't disagree, however and there are weapons besides the AK-74 that would fit in the game, its just that the AK-74 should be part of this game for several reasons and not be dismissed.

[AlexLM 31]

My point is that there's no hard divide anymore. The Berlin Wall fell.

 

Eastern European, former-Soviet, former-Yugoslavian, Caucasian, and former-Warsaw Pact countries have incredible diversity in the weapons they use.

 

So it's inaccurate to suggest, essentially, that all of them only use AKs in 7.62x39/5.45x39. When the evidence indicates clearly to the contrary.

 

Chernarus is fictional. It, to me, appears to be an amalgam of Bosnia/Kosovo, Chechnya, Georgia, Czech Republic, and Ukraine. Which all have distinct circumstances, landscapes, and conflicts in the former two.

 

There is no monolithic "Eastern Bloc" which all uses one weapon platform. 

Oh absolutely. There's definitely still a Pact commonality, but yes there's no hard reason why ANY gun "can't" be in the game (irregardless of what states use what, all sorts of weapons turn up everywhere in the world thanks to black market channels).

 

My issue with the devs adding an AK-101 instead of a 74 comes down to ammo commonality. Consider how many times you find an M4 magazine, it is a fairly rare experience. That's good, that is that the devs want iirc, certain weapons and their associated parts are rarer. Few m4 magazines and only a bit of ammo for them.

 

Now how often will you find an AK-101 magazine? I find at least one in every base. Sometimes a barracks will have two in just one building. This represents a huge windfall for players with M4s who should have rare, difficult to maintain weapons now with large amounts of ammo to refill on. It's the same in reverse, if you have an AK-101 and find one of those ridiculous 60 round coupled M4 magazines hey you have a buttload of spare bullets to dump into your pants. I'd prefer the removal of ALL magazines over 40 rounds actually. Preferably 30. I'm getting somewhat off point, but I hope you can see the problem I'm presenting. Ammo diversity = scarcity = less incentive to Rambo through Berezino with stacks of brass.

[Katana67 2907]

Well, it would be welcoming to see weapons that fit the locale like the Galil or the RK95 Tp. I think some of the others see the AK-101 as fitting as one of those AR platform sporter rifles chambered in 7.62x39, that is not well at all. I don't disagree, however and there are weapons besides the AK-74 that would fit in the game, its just that the AK-74 should be part of this game for several reasons and not be dismissed.

 

Well, the problem is, that people have a warped definition of what "fits the locale." Shaped by... I don't know what.

 

1. The countries enveloped by generalized notions of "Warsaw Pact," "Eastern Europe," and "former-Soviet" are incredibly diverse. You're essentially covering the entirety of Asia, half of Europe, and all of the Caucasus.

 

2. NATO weapons/calibers are being used by many of the aforementioned states. Not just by Special Forces (which is still a valid mode of advancing an argument), but as standard service rifles.

 

3. Many of the aforementioned countries, have manufacturers of NATO weaponry within them.

 

4. Many of the aforementioned countries are developing, or have developed, their own weapon platforms which are distinct from that of "Soviet Russia."

 

EDIT - 5. We live in a globalized economy, where weapons can be shipped across borders. Hence why Kenya has Mk 17s, Serbia has Mk 16s, Hamas has FN2000s, and Libya has AK-103s

 

To an extent, you're correct (and I've been waiting a while for someone to make this connection) that the AK-101 is akin to something like an AR-15 in 7.62x39. But, for one, I wouldn't mind if that were the case... I like nifty ARs like that. Secondly, and more importantly, the AK-101 and AK-74M are visually identical (save for a slightly less-curved magazine). So much so, that I've put intentionally mislabeled comparisons of the two and so-called "gun nuts" haven't corrected me.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Katana67

[Katana67 2907]

My issue with the devs adding an AK-101 instead of a 74 comes down to ammo commonality. Consider how many times you find an M4 magazine, it is a fairly rare experience. That's good, that is that the devs want iirc, certain weapons and their associated parts are rarer. Few m4 magazines and only a bit of ammo for them.

 

Now how often will you find an AK-101 magazine? I find at least one in every base. Sometimes a barracks will have two in just one building. This represents a huge windfall for players with M4s who should have rare, difficult to maintain weapons now with large amounts of ammo to refill on. It's the same in reverse, if you have an AK-101 and find one of those ridiculous 60 round coupled M4 magazines hey you have a buttload of spare bullets to dump into your pants. I'd prefer the removal of ALL magazines over 40 rounds actually. Preferably 30. I'm getting somewhat off point, but I hope you can see the problem I'm presenting. Ammo diversity = scarcity = less incentive to Rambo through Berezino with stacks of brass.

 

I agree, for pragmatic reasons, the AK-101 (i.e. a supposedly common/uncommon assault rifle) in 5.56x45 (i.e. a relatively rare assault rifle cartridge) is a bad choice. But people seldom make that argument. You are one of two people that I've seen, beside myself, make the argument for 5.45x39 because of pragmatic concerns about diversifying the ammunition rarity in-game.

 

However, it is by no means necessary to add 5.45x39. We've already got 5.56x45 and 7.62x39 in-game. 7.62x39 is the more common round, whilst 5.56x45 is rarer. Diversification is a good idea, but they can still balance rarity with two rounds.

 

90%, with only a small amount of hyperbole, of people post the non-argument of "it doesn't fit the locale" as their sole reason for having 5.45x39 in the game.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Katana67

[stielhandgranate 480]

Secondly, and more importantly, the AK-101 and AK-74M are visually identical (save for a slightly less-curved magazine). So much so, that I've put intentionally mislabeled comparisons of the two and so-called "gun nuts" haven't corrected me.

 

This is why I was excited and misread the retexture as a reskin. What they could do is give it a flat gas break,railed dust cover and a different muzzle break in game to avoid confusion between both models.

[Katana67 2907]

What they could do is give it a flat gas break,railed dust cover and a different muzzle break in game to avoid confusion between both models.

 

I'd rather these be facets of the already-included attachment system.

[stielhandgranate 480]

I'd rather these be facets of the already-included attachment system.

 

We both know installing a new gas break on an AK pattern weapon is an involved procedure. More involved than installing a RIS. But a "flat" break and a "slant break" are pretty distinctive and can help people tell the two models apart.

[Katana67 2907]

We both know installing a new gas break on an AK pattern weapon is an involved procedure. More involved than installing a RIS. But a "flat" break and a "slant break" are pretty distinctive and can help people tell the two models apart.

 

Until they put in said "involved procedure" as a game mechanic (which is highly unlikely), we've got the loot-point-click attachment system.

[hombrecz 832]

I love how majority in here agrees that 5.45x39 is !good! thing for the game, both from realism and gameplay perspective.

Yet there are some folks, that will argue to the death about semantics trying to support dev's decisions all the way or just because they love to argue.

[Katana67 2907]

Yet there are some folks, that will argue to the death about semantics trying to support dev's decisions all the way or just because they love to argue.

 

Much in the same way that the AK-101/AK-74M divide is one of pure semantics, hence why making it "realistic" only involved changing the name of the AK-74M. Hence why people resented the prospect of the AK-74M being chambered in 5.56x45 to begin with, because it was "unrealistic."

 

Much in the same way that people who are uncompromising with regard to "realism" stamp their feet and hold their breath until they get what they want.

 

Much in the same way that people who are uncompromising with regard to "realism" indict the developers personally as if they're betraying them somehow if they don't get 100% of what they want.

 

Much in the same way that any semblance of simplicity/compromise is dismissed vitriolically as "casual" even if it's just a pragmatic gameplay decision.

 

There's a lack of reason on both sides of the aisle.

 

I don't agree with all that the developers have done, or even most of it (including the omission of 5.45x39, although for an actual reason). But I make my points in ways which focus on the issues, not the people on either side of the issue. Let's focus on the issues.

 

EDIT - I recognize that you may not, and probably weren't, referring to me personally. However, for the record, it was you who brought "the folks" making the argument... rather than the argument itself, into question.

Edited September 6, 2014 by Katana67

[hombrecz 832]

-snip-

 

If the cause is common, I fail to see any reason behind arguing about whose arguments are better.

 

Anyways it was said X times already, why AK sharing the same ammo as M4 is not very good decision, both from realism and gameplay side.

Couple this with almost zero effort of introducing 5.45 (and also 7.62x54R) and voila, here you have palpable reason why some folks are unhappy and vocal about it.

 

Also it does not matter if you like realism or not, the merit of this discussion was that game would be BETTER having mentioned calibers which is another reason why are folks vocal about that.

 

Anyway we had this discussion before.

Edited September 7, 2014 by Hombre

[ryanincalgary 20]

This games guns went to shit the minute they decided all the M4's, attachments and bullets would spawn randomly at three of 20ish spawn points across the map and no where else. It's not realistic that NATO would send in troops by helicopter which all crashed and they existed no where else in the area. There should have at least been a NATO base or a base shared with NATO somewhere on the map if they were operating in the area.