Suggestion: fine tune new zed behaviors

[oktyabr 53]

I love the new zombies in 1.5.7 and I think they are step in the right direction. Assuming the mod keeps things on this sort of danger level I have a few suggestions about zombie behavior that might help fine tune them a bit:

1)DAY light: Zed should be able to see better in daylight than nighttime. I know they have poor eyesight but the way it plays right now a zombie 100m away will run towards you, even in the dark, even if you aren't making any further noise. Zed being able to vaguely make out your presence visually might make them move slowly in your direction until they are sure you are food. Lower their visual acuity in both daylight and nighttime with nighttime being much further reduced.

2) Light in the dark: Assuming #1 is implemented balance it out with making zeds MUCH more curious about light sources in the dark. Basically the brighter the light source the further away a zombie can be and still be "interested" in you.

3) Flares: Along with #1 and #2, as part of a bigger whole, flares cast the most light in 360 degrees and are arguably the easiest thing to make out at night, even in the far distance. Further they make a loud hissing sound when lit and it would be good to see the flare boost the bars showing how loud you are being when you are carrying one (the "ear" icon). To help counter act their tremendous potential for stirring up zombies interest in you they might also be the only light source that can distract them as well, due to their sound. Much like a smoke grenade or whiskey bottle works now. Drop/throw a lit flare *at night* and if you are no longer carrying one there should be a strong chance that the zed will be more interested in it than in you, at least for awhile. This would still work during daytime but with a reduced effect as the light from the flare doesn't produce as much "interesting" contrast in the daylight and they would mostly be interested in it due to it's (shorter range) sound FX.

4) Persistence: Right now the only thing that will stop zed from chasing you on flat, open ground is a bullet. No matter how far you run they keep up their relentless pursuit. I don't really care to see slower zombies per se, but rather ones without limitless stamina that might actually slow back down to a walk after a long run (to rest for a short time?) and eventually give up entirely once you are quite a distance ahead (or out of visual range).

Further, everyone sooner or later finds themselves boxed in, maybe in an upper floor of a building, with a sea of zombies running into each other trying to get up the stairs to you. You can literally fill a stair case full of dead zombies and they will continue to try to get you. You can begin removing the fallen ones with "hide body" but sooner or later you get to the ones that aren't fallen yet and it's rinse and repeat. It would be nice that after a short while, if the zombies can move no further towards you (because of fallen corpses or whatever) that they give up and start roaming again.

5) Doors: Here is hoping that in lieu of having ways to block entrances with bookshelves, dressers and other debris, or without having usable hammers and nails that maybe finding the right code to simply keep zombies from passing through (i.e. "opening") closed doors and gates would be a huge boon. Once a door is closed only a player can open it and zombies no longer magically pass through them. Then apply the "persistence" rules in #4. Having a bunch of zombies milling around the general area because they gave up trying to figure out how to open a door would be fine. Just let them go non-aggro after a bit of no-joy.

6) Other distractions: Zombies could have a short attention span, basically following the old adage "out of sight, out of mind". Whether you loose them in the woods or behind a closed door or whatever, eventually they forget they were even after you, specifically. At that point anything more interesting might lure them in a different direction; the flare lighting up the highway in the distance, the gunshots from a block away, etc. Meanwhile give them a limited interest in food. The corpse of a survivor or even a fallen zombie might have a *chance* of distracting them for a moment, so might raw/cooked meat. And what about wild life? This wouldn't happen very often, surely, but imagine trying to loose a hungry horde in the woods when you suddenly run across a wild boar or a cow. Isn't it reasonable to expect that the animal, being the easier prey, would deserve the attention of at least many of those that are pursuing you?

Open to suggestions, comments, and constructive criticism.

[el mariachi 10]

All of that stuff would be pretty sweet.

[drewmaw 56]

I like this, however, with the persistence idea, there needs to be a stamina bar for human players. There should be a stamina bar anyway, regardless, as it's unrealistic for human players to sprint forever, but that being said, if zombies will eventually give-up, then players need to manage when/how to use their existing stamina, which could or could not be tied to water, food, or merely a time-based cooldown.

Speaking of cooldowns, it would certainly be nice if human players regenerated blood over time. It would also be nice if the desaturated filter doesn't take over the screen until critical blood loss, say below 4k or something. The game is so pretty in color! But once you're below 7500, it already looks so bland, which isn't realistic whatsoever. I say do away with the black and white indication.

[grounddog 12]

1)DAY light

Agree with this, really should be implented

2) Light in the dark

Same thought as the first one. This would make it a lot more realistic.

3) Flares

Perfect way to make flares even more dangerous like they really would be. Really needed so people would use flares as really the last resort.

4) Persistence

Well they actually already stop chasing you after time when you camp on a roof where you got onto with a ladder. Although yes, considering the fact that there would be so many bodies on the way it should be a lot harder for them to pass. But you can also think that they would IRL push or pull the corpses out of their way to get up. And come on, the walkers arent that smart to detect a possible threat. They only have animalistic instinct left.

5) Doors

This might be way too hard to make as this would depend a lot on the internet connection of the players and ArmA 2 itself. The game should be fixed on that note.

This is what I think, im not sure about this. Just seems so to me.

6) Other distractions

Cooked meat should be in, or raw meat. That you have possiblity to throw it also.

Cooked meat in that case actually distracting more because of the smell.

Raw meat because of the blood in it would also make a good distraction but less because it doesnt have such a smell like cooked one would. (if that is possible to take into consideration)

These all are my ideas. Or agreements. I don't expect them to fit to all of you.

[oktyabr 53]

I still see a bit of unbalanced spawning. As others have said you can reach a larger city and encounter almost no zed and yet a very small farming village will be crawling with them. Certainly there must be a way to weight zombie spawning against how many other zombie spawns are in a certain distance. Hoping rocket can fine tune this.

[ghost_kage 5]

All of these ideas are great, I've read through pretty much all of your different idea posts, and I have to say, I'm glad your a moderator. You have some really good ideas, and I hope all of them get at least tested at some point. That being said, when you brought up the zombie stamina system, and the other poster talked about players needing a stamina bar, it made me think about a way to implement it. Perhaps, if you are 'Well Fed" or in otherwords, have eaten extra food, you could sprint longer distances? Or at least give some sort of benifits for consuming a decent amount of food. Just an idea.

[bas_tera@hotmail.com 3]

I agree with all these things!

The fact that zeds wont be able to see as well in the dark will actually create an insentive to play during night time. You will be able to get the zeds out of your way with flares, get in and get out quick.

Also, the persistence would be brilliant! Too often have i died because i ran out of ammo, and with the increased zeds in 1.5.7 i find myself out of ammo a lot of the time.

Therefore, if the zeds at some point give up you'd have a chance (all be it a small one) to survive their terror!

[kerbobotat 0]

Perhaps' date=' if you are 'Well Fed" or in otherwords, have eaten extra food, you could sprint longer distances? Or at least give some sort of benifits for consuming a decent amount of food. Just an idea.

[/quote']

I was under the impression that sprinting constantly caused your hunger and thirst meters to deteriorate more rapidly. Does that not happen? That would be a good way to handle the Player Stamina thing, I think.

[oktyabr 53]

All of these ideas are great' date=' I've read through pretty much all of your different idea posts, and I have to say, I'm glad your a moderator. You have some really good ideas, and I hope all of them get at least tested at some point. That being said, when you brought up the zombie stamina system, and the other poster talked about players needing a stamina bar, it made me think about a way to implement it. Perhaps, if you are 'Well Fed" or in otherwords, have eaten extra food, you could sprint longer distances? Or at least give some sort of benifits for consuming a decent amount of food. Just an idea.

[/quote']

Thanks!

I'd certainly want to consider food/water in the equation for player stamina. Also perhaps weight. Maybe there would be a price to pay for running all over the place with one of the bigger packs on?

As for zombie endurance this could work a similar way. There used to be a post or two on this idea so I can't take full credit for it but basically make the really hungry zombies the fast *short distance* runners. They REALLY want to eat you but don't have the energy to keep up a chase for long... They would likely take less damage to kill one as well. The slower types (or a fast one that's recently eaten your partner, etc.) aren't quite as obsessed and while they can keep up the pursuit over a longer distance they aren't likely to burn it all in 100m dash. Or maybe swap the speed/hunger ideas for the two? *Something* like that anyway.

---

Perhaps' date=' if you are 'Well Fed" or in otherwords, have eaten extra food, you could sprint longer distances? Or at least give some sort of benifits for consuming a decent amount of food. Just an idea.

[/quote']

I was under the impression that sprinting constantly caused your hunger and thirst meters to deteriorate more rapidly. Does that not happen? That would be a good way to handle the Player Stamina thing, I think.

I'm not sure that they are directly linked in the mod although there was a time I thought they might be. Also I wonder what the relationship is in real life? Aren't calories pretty much like fuel in any machine? Run it twice as fast, get twice as much done (run X distance in half the time) but burn the fuel at twice the rate? Certainly it isn't exactly that simple or linear but it would make sense if it were I suppose.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

There is actually some form of stamina in arma, you get out of breath and your sprinting speed slowly goes down to the "jog" speed, also you can't aim straight for a while.

ACE has this thing where you can pass out, but i can't see any time where this was actually an enjoyable element, or when it would have happened at a moment where passing out would matter.

Most peoples tend to sprint from A to B and that's where a hard stamina penality would kick in pretty much all the time.

It would be really annoying (even if somewhat realistic) to have to walk or pause all the time, seeing as not much is going on in the wilderness and that i'd rather minimize the time i'm running out in the open.

As a for a stamina bar, i'm personally for a minimalistic hud without gauges and bars telling the player exactly things, i'd rather prefer to rely on in game cues than hud elements.

[oktyabr 53]

As a for a stamina bar' date=' i'm personally for a minimalistic hud without gauges and bars telling the player exactly things, i'd rather prefer to rely on in game cues than hud elements.

[/quote']

Me too. I first found game cues for stamina while beta testing Red Orchestra (the original). The sound FX were so well done you had no doubt in your mind you were getting tired.

This made me think about the zed and their stamina too. How about different sound effects based on dynamic events? Imagine the sound of excited panting just before one lunges at your back. Screams of frustration as you pull away or manage safety some other way... Maybe even a sort of sorrowful, pleading sound as they get tired of chasing you, just before they give up... "Please come back and let me eat you... I'm SO hungry."

[simasz 15]

The different sounds idea sound really awesome :)

I wonder if it would be possible to make the zombies sometimes start fighting with each other for a bite when they knock you down, especially the hungriest ones :)

[oktyabr 53]

The different sounds idea sound really awesome :)

I wonder if it would be possible to make the zombies sometimes start fighting with each other for a bite when they knock you down' date=' especially the hungriest ones :)

[/quote']

Hell yeah! It might complicate the already sleek and optimized AI routines but yeah, I could see where that would work. It's not like they are taking tickets and patiently standing in line waiting their turn...

[sab0t 109]

All good suggestions! I also support that if zombies have limited stamina, so must players in some way or another, whether a gauge or based on sustenance.

as far as "Zombie Interest", corpses (animal/player/zombie) and bleeding players could potentially be other things that get zombies attention. as far as corpses, fresh ones might cause them to feed, whereas old ones / other zombie corpses may just cause them to linger closer to it.

the more zombie-like the better in any case...good suggestions

[oktyabr 53]

All good suggestions! I also support that if zombies have limited stamina' date=' so must players in some way or another, whether a gauge or based on sustenance.

as far as "Zombie Interest", corpses (animal/player/zombie) and bleeding players could potentially be other things that get zombies attention. as far as corpses, fresh ones might cause them to feed, whereas old ones / other zombie corpses may just cause them to linger closer to it.

the more zombie-like the better in any case...good suggestions

[/quote']

I am fully in favor of some sort of realistic stamina (see my earlier posts), both for players and zed. Especially if weight becomes a factor... Maybe that guy with the ALICE pack, two long rifles (counting the CZ in the ALICE), and fully geared up pays a price by not being able to run full speed as long as someone with the much lighter equipment. Alternatively the guy with the ALICE fully loaded up might decide to drop it and hopefully recover it later. Health, etc. should play a part too... The guy that is on pain meds for a broken leg won't run as fast or as far as the guy that's in perfect health.

The old joke about Tom and Fred, the two hunters that run into an angry bear, ending with Tom not needing to run faster than the bear, just faster than Fred!

It's like in that one commercial for the movie "The Dictator" where he shoots other runners so he can stay in the lead:

This would be very slick to have work when a "group" is running from a huge horde.

[Decoy (DayZ) 0]

I like these ideas.

My biggest problem with zeds at the moment is their ridiculous speed. They're faster (by a considerable margin) than player characters. Maybe that's within rocket's vision, but it just doesn't feel right to me.

Also, all their animations look like they're playing in fast forward. When they're just milling about, they look fine. But as soon as they aggro, they suddenly move at a ridiculously fast pace. It looks silly.

[oktyabr 53]

I like these ideas.

My biggest problem with zeds at the moment is their ridiculous speed. They're faster (by a considerable margin) than player characters.

Actually they are not faster. You can run from one end of the map to the other with zed behind you without getting caught, if you plan your route carefully. What a lot of new players aren't aware of is that this mod (and the game it's rooted in) has several different movement modes... the fastest is found by standing up and double tapping your forward movement key holding it down on the second tap.

[SpiritSharD (DayZ) 1]

I definitely agree with persistence and distractions; I pretty much just leave my character to die if I get caught by zombies with no ammo because I know that they'll chase me to hell and back.

Also; one time outside Cherno I aggro'd ONE zombie, which I promptly shot in the head with my pistol. Somehow this seemingly alerted the whole town because I had about 20-30 zombies begin chasing me. Fortunately I climbed up one of the cranes by the docks and shot them all from a distance (they didn't try going up the ladder). I like the idea of zombies converging on your location when you fire a bullet, but;

A) I don't think they should know EXACTLY where you are, and just head in your general direction.

B) I don't think an entire town should move towards you.

As it stands, if you get caught with no ammo you may as well just do what I do and get yourself killed.

[Nitrous (DayZ) 0]

Some nice ideas Okty. The persistence one is my favourite, because atm, running isnt really a viable option due to their limitless persistence.

[poisonman 28]

There definitely needs to be more zombies in the world, and not just in towns / cities and buildings, anyone that watches "The Walking Dead" or any of the numerous Zombie Movies / Shows, knows zombies will roam either by themselves or in herds / packs in search for food.

That and things need to eventually be fixed so Zombies break down doors & barriers to pass through them rather then just being able to walk / glitch through them like they do now.

Sure they hang out in towns & cities because that is where people (their food) usually are, especially right at the start of the outbreak / apocalypse. And Zombies will continue to hang out in these towns & cities long afterwards as well because these places will still get traffic from survivors scavenging for food / supplies / etc, but this shouldn't be the only place they are.

But after everyone is either dead & converted to a zombie themselves, or survive and escape you would think at least some of them would roam around the map looking for food, mainly sticking to roads & paths, but zombies don't think or care, they would wander through the woods if they had to, to find food.

There should be less zombies randomly in the woods then a open field or city / town (I totally agree here), but they should be out there looking for food. No where should be safe forever like the woods are / can be in this game at times.

The campsite the survivor's had in the woods outside Atlanta eventually got over run and do did Hershel's Farm, as a survivor in the zombie apocalypse you should have to unfortunately move / relocate every so often to survive.

I also understand the need for zombies to spawn, dynamically or not, when people get close to a town or city so things are exciting and challenging, and thats fine, but there really needs to always be a certain set amount of zombies in the world everywhere all the time both roaming by themselves & in herds as well as just staying in one place like they do now, all of this on top of the dynamic town / city zombie spawning.

No where can be safe forever from creatures who don't sleep or get tired and their only motivation is to find you and eat you, zombies aren't smart and can't / don't think (they are dead), but they are relentless and never give up. Zombies don't know quit or really much of anything else other than you looking delicious.

[Decoy (DayZ) 0]

I like these ideas.

My biggest problem with zeds at the moment is their ridiculous speed. They're faster (by a considerable margin) than player characters.

Actually they are not faster. You can run from one end of the map to the other with zed behind you without getting caught' date=' if you plan your route carefully. What a lot of new players aren't aware of is that this mod (and the game it's rooted in) has several different movement modes... the fastest is found by standing up and double tapping your forward movement key holding it down on the second tap.

[/quote']

Oh, I'm aware. But if you alert a zed who is 40m away from you, he will catch up to you. He won't catch you because zeds have to stop to attack, but in terms of pure movement speed, they're faster than player characters.

[blackaciddevil 0]

I like these ideas.

My biggest problem with zeds at the moment is their ridiculous speed. They're faster (by a considerable margin) than player characters. Maybe that's within rocket's vision' date=' but it just doesn't feel right to me.

Also, all their animations look like they're playing in fast forward. When they're just milling about, they look fine. But as soon as they aggro, they suddenly move at a ridiculously fast pace. It looks silly.

[/quote']

I agree with you!

I would like to see the player be able to out run the zombies. Don't think they should have any stamina. They will run (a little slower then now) until they lose visual contact of the player or don't hear the player. They starts to walk (like a ball losning speed when rolled downhill), scattering. Some start feeding on a fallen player, some Walk around looking for you.

No challenge if you can run from them some will say. But if the amunition loot drops, and you only have 1 mag or some bullets. You'll have to hide fast.

[bwat47 0]

I like this' date=' however, with the persistence idea, there needs to be a stamina bar for human players. There should be a stamina bar anyway, regardless, as it's unrealistic for human players to sprint forever, but that being said, if zombies will eventually give-up, then players need to manage when/how to use their existing stamina, which could or could not be tied to water, food, or merely a time-based cooldown.

Speaking of cooldowns, it would certainly be nice if human players regenerated blood over time. It would also be nice if the desaturated filter doesn't take over the screen until critical blood loss, say below 4k or something. The game is so pretty in color! But once you're below 7500, it already looks so bland, which isn't realistic whatsoever. I say do away with the black and white indication.

[/quote']

the map is so massive a stamina bar for players would get real annoying.

[Arnoldio 2]

Great post, OP. Agre with everything, especially zombie behaviour, it needs to be fixed.

[Ungotter 2]

This is exactly what I was looking for. This games totally breaks the immersion sometimes. Today I was laid down crawling past zombies, bleeding and I managed to get past them, crawl to the other side of a wall and while I was bandaging myself up they saw me through the wall. I was then chased with no bullets (I was on a roof 1000000miles in the air and a zombie saw me; everything else in the area was also alerted and I literally only had one exit) and I ran for about 10 minutes, along the coast and so forth and then I thought "WHAT IF I SWIM?" Then it also turns out zombies can swim too; Just as fast as I can and can stand on the water to attack me.

This was absurd; once a zombie chases you that's it. I spent 2 hours, YES TWO. Looking for ammunition or a new gun and found nothing except car parts and that's beyond anything I could help. You can't say "THAT'S HOW THE GAME PLAYS, GET USED TO THE REALISM BOY" because I shouldn't have a gun in the first place then or know how to operate it.

The AI really needs a rework, everything suggested here is great!