Bullet shock/damage values lowered?

[Insane Ruffles 74]

Damage system is completely broken with clothes on. The only way you would be able to take that many rounds is if you wore a heavy duty Kevlar vest or something of the like, and even then a bullet the size of a Mosin round will still knock you down and severely bruise you, maybe even break a few bones, even without any penetration. 

Edited July 16, 2014 by InsaneRuffles

[gibonez 3633]

 

 

Soon

[solodude23 649]

 

Soon

Wheres that from? Looks awesome.

[gibonez 3633]

Wheres that from? Looks awesome.

 

Dev blog from nearly a year ago.

 

Injury / limping whatever it is system is clearly not in yet. Glad to see its coming though the current shrug off bullets like nothing and stop bleeding with a dirty rag mechanics kinda suck.

[Survive_the_Apoc 10]

Speaking from a real world perspective at range a 9mm round has very little stopping power. This is why my bedside table has a .45 in it. It may not kill you outright but you will seriously reconsider having broken into my home while you stare at my ceiling. As far as damag reduction via clothing. Why aren't you aiming for the head? Seriously though it all seems like a place holder for armor values. Once fully implemented in sure we will see a much better system

 

You're incorrect, and still buying in the myth about larger calibers have "more stopping power." Do some internet searches or even watch a mythbusters and you'll see this myth debunked. The benefit of the smaller caliber is you generally have more bullets to fire, and they generally have a higher FPS (feet per second) than the larger, meaning generally you get more penetration and actually more impact power due to a higher initial velocity. 

 

So speaking from a "real world perspective" at range, a 9mm would actually have more power, longer, than a heavier .45 that is fired at a slower velocity. Also have to consider penetration, in that a .45 has a larger surface area, so upon impact it's energy is being spread across a greater surface. 

 

Ultimately stopping power really comes from the ability to hit the target where it needs to be hit to stop it, regardless of the caliber. 

Edited July 16, 2014 by Survive_the_Apoc

[Etherimp 1323]

You're incorrect, and still buying in the myth about larger calibers have "more stopping power." Do some internet searches or even watch a mythbusters and you'll see this myth debunked. The benefit of the smaller caliber is you generally have more bullets to fire, and they generally have a higher FPS (feet per second) than the larger, meaning generally you get more penetration and actually more impact power due to a higher initial velocity.

So speaking from a "real world perspective" at range, a 9mm would actually have more power, longer, than a heavier .45 that is fired at a slower velocity. Also have to consider penetration, in that a .45 has a larger surface area, so upon impact it's energy is being spread across a greater surface.

Ultimately stopping power really comes from the ability to hit the target where it needs to be hit to stop it, regardless of the caliber.

Actually, I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Penetration and stopping power are two separate qualities. If a bullet penetrates a target it imparts less of its energy into that target. A slower and heavier round will stop at/inside the target and all of the excess energy will be imparted into the target, devastating bones organs and tissues. That's stopping power.

Rounds like 5.56 are designed to penetrate and wound. Not kill. They are high velocity, light, and high penetration. They also (often) break apart upon hitting bone, spreading shrapnel through the surrounding tissue. Similar to anecdotes about .22 rounds hitting someone's shoulder, piercing their lung, and coming out their thigh.

That said, without hitting a vital organ or ricocheting inside someone's body, wounds from smaller caliber rounds are generally non-lethal. Whereas a wound from a .357 or .45 is much more likely to send a devastating shockwave through a large area around the entry wound and cause fatal damage to vital organs.

[gibonez 3633]

Rounds like 5.56 are designed to penetrate and wound. Not kill. They are high velocity, light, and high penetration. They also (often) break apart upon hitting bone, spreading shrapnel through the surrounding tissue. Similar to anecdotes about .22 rounds hitting someone's shoulder, piercing their lung, and coming out their thigh.

They are designed to incapacitate rapidly.

 

This is part of the problem at the moment. The bleeding, and bullet damage system simply does not work without additional layers.

 

Having only 3 states at the moment kind of sucks. Conscious , unconscious and dead.

 

We need incapacitation, hurt stages, we need different types of bleeding including bleeding that cannot be stopped  and heavy bleeding that requires multiple  rags and bandages where the bandage slows the bleeding but you will still continue to bleed for a while. 

[Survive_the_Apoc 10]

Actually, I'm pretty sure you're wrong. Penetration and stopping power are two separate qualities. If a bullet penetrates a target it imparts less of its energy into that target. A slower and heavier round will stop at/inside the target and all of the excess energy will be imparted into the target, devastating bones organs and tissues. That's stopping power.

Rounds like 5.56 are designed to penetrate and wound. Not kill. They are high velocity, light, and high penetration. They also (often) break apart upon hitting bone, spreading shrapnel through the surrounding tissue. Similar to anecdotes about .22 rounds hitting someone's shoulder, piercing their lung, and coming out their thigh.

That said, without hitting a vital organ or ricocheting inside someone's body, wounds from smaller caliber rounds are generally non-lethal. Whereas a wound from a .357 or .45 is much more likely to send a devastating shockwave through a large area around the entry wound and cause fatal damage to vital organs.

 

Except statistically many of the smaller calibers (as in smaller than .45) have a higher rate of incapacitation on targets than a .45 does. You're also assuming that a .45 expands significantly different than a 9mm does, which it does not. Look at tests of same grain bullets into ballistic gelatin. .45 and 9mm have virtually the same expansion, in many cases the same penetration. The only difference is in velocity, which CAN help overcome obstacles between you and the target (armor, doors, etc). A lot of service people say that getting hit with a bullet while wearing armor is like getting hit really hard with a baseball bat (without armor). It's going to do a lot of damage, but it's neither round is going to reliable stop someone. So all things being equal there, would you rather hit someone with a bat 9 times, or 15? 

 

Keep in mind that a .357 (9.06mm) round is closer in size to a 9mm than a .45, so that doesn't really support the bigger is better. What you're referring to is the effect of Hydrostatic shock, and while the effects are generally greater in a larger caliber due to it's ability to transfer more of its energy, the effects on an individual in regards to incapacitating them are often unreliable, hence why many agencies prioritize selecting a round that leads to easier/better shot placement over the "stopping power" of the round. Besides that, bullet design in general can have as much to do with hydrostatic shock as the actual size of the bullet. 

 

This debate is age old and unlikely to be settled in a game forum of all places. Ultimately it comes down to whatever someone can shoot the best. Personally, for what I do, I'd prefer the extra shots that come with a 9mm, as again, statistically if you need to use it, you're likely to pull the trigger multiple times without realizing it. Exactly why an officer may say he shot someone 3 times and in reality he fired 13 times. 

 

The line about the 5.56 round designed to wound and not kill is also a complete myth. Google it and see for yourself. The military would never spec and adopt a round so widespread as the 5.56 is used if it was designed to wound and not kill. That would be completely ridiculous. 

Edited July 17, 2014 by Survive_the_Apoc

[Etherimp 1323]

Except statistically many of the smaller calibers (as in smaller than .45) have a higher rate of incapacitation on targets than a .45 does. You're also assuming that a .45 expands significantly different than a 9mm does, which it does not. Look at tests of same grain bullets into ballistic gelatin. .45 and 9mm have virtually the same expansion, in many cases the same penetration. The only difference is in velocity, which CAN help overcome obstacles between you and the target (armor, doors, etc). A lot of service people say that getting hit with a bullet while wearing armor is like getting hit really hard with a baseball bat (without armor). It's going to do a lot of damage, but it's neither round is going to reliable stop someone. So all things being equal there, would you rather hit someone with a bat 9 times, or 15? 

 

Keep in mind that a .357 (9.06mm) round is closer in size to a 9mm than a .45, so that doesn't really support the bigger is better. What you're referring to is the effect of Hydrostatic shock, and while the effects are generally greater in a larger caliber due to it's ability to transfer more of its energy, the effects on an individual in regards to incapacitating them are often unreliable, hence why many agencies prioritize selecting a round that leads to easier/better shot placement over the "stopping power" of the round. Besides that, bullet design in general can have as much to do with hydrostatic shock as the actual size of the bullet. 

 

This debate is age old and unlikely to be settled in a game forum of all places. Ultimately it comes down to whatever someone can shoot the best. Personally, for what I do, I'd prefer the extra shots that come with a 9mm, as again, statistically if you need to use it, you're likely to pull the trigger multiple times without realizing it. Exactly why an officer may say he shot someone 3 times and in reality he fired 13 times. 

 

The line about the 5.56 round designed to wound and not kill is also a complete myth. Google it and see for yourself. The military would never spec and adopt a round so widespread as the 5.56 is used if it was designed to wound and not kill. That would be completely ridiculous. 

 

 

All bullets have the capacity to kill but the Hague Convention of 1899 prohibits the use of of bullets which easly flatten or expand in the body in international warfare. This is (partly) why 5.56 are used and why they use FMJ rather than hollow-point. Hollow-point rounds are specifically designed to flatten and expand upon contact with tissue which then transfers energy from the bullet to the surrounding area. The alternative is (as described above), a round which more easily penetrates. You can make any round flathead/hollowpoint, and you could design 5.56 as Hollowpoint, but it's against the "rules" of war, hence why they aren't used. I imagine the military also uses 5.56 because of the high muzzle velocity and overall stability of the round, range, and accuracy. This doesn't mean they have more STOPPING POWER than a .45 ACP. Realistically, 9mm's stopping power is just fine, but as explained above, the more mass the projectile has the more energy it takes to propel it and the more energy it carries the more damage it's going to do upon impact as it imparts that energy into the target. Small caliber FMJ's are going to more easily pass through (penetrate), while larger, heavier, slower rounds are going to stop on impact and destroy more tissue upon shallow penetration.

 

This is simple physics man.. You don't have to be a gun nut to understand these concepts, and I'm not arguing that one round is better or worse. They all have their uses and there are so many variables to take into consideration that it's really not a black and white issue. But the PHYSICS of the matter is: Larger round = more stopping power. Let's not even get into armor, as it's a non-issue.

 

A 1970 Cadillac that weighs 2 tons going 50 miles per hour is going to do more damage to wall than a 2010 Honda Civic going 60 mph. The increase in speed does not mean it's going to bust that wall down easier than the heavier car. Likewise, a needle is going to penetrate easier and cause less destruction to a piece of paper than a dowel head would, going the same speed.

Edited July 17, 2014 by Etherimp

[gibonez 3633]

 You can make any round flathead/hollowpoint, and you could design 5.56 as Hollowpoint, but it's against the "rules" of war, hence why they aren't used. I imagine the military also uses 5.56 because of the high muzzle velocity and overall stability of the round, range, and accuracy. This doesn't mean they have more STOPPING POWER than a .45 ACP.

 

But they did and do use them.

 

 

Military has been using open tip 5.56 for years now in the form of mk262mod1 ammo.

They offer better accuracy and apparently more stopping power.

Also yup just about any rifle bullet has more "stopping" power than any .45 acp bullet.

 

 

 

If you want a person killed you use a rifle .

Edited July 17, 2014 by gibonez

[MadWookie 573]

Damage is strange.

 

Recently, I shot a guy in the thigh with a mosin, and it knocked him unconscious

Realistically a shot to the thigh should kill you, if not instantly, very fast from blood loss. Seeing as the Femoral artery is one of the largest in your body and carries the most blood you wouldn't last long from a gun shot wound in the thigh, any kind of puncture would really.. go ahead guys, say I'm being "too realistic, it's just a game." Blah blah blah. :P 

[Survive_the_Apoc 10]

All bullets have the capacity to kill but the Hague Convention of 1899 prohibits the use of of bullets which easly flatten or expand in the body in international warfare. This is (partly) why 5.56 are used and why they use FMJ rather than hollow-point. Hollow-point rounds are specifically designed to flatten and expand upon contact with tissue which then transfers energy from the bullet to the surrounding area. The alternative is (as described above), a round which more easily penetrates. You can make any round flathead/hollowpoint, and you could design 5.56 as Hollowpoint, but it's against the "rules" of war, hence why they aren't used. I imagine the military also uses 5.56 because of the high muzzle velocity and overall stability of the round, range, and accuracy. This doesn't mean they have more STOPPING POWER than a .45 ACP. Realistically, 9mm's stopping power is just fine, but as explained above, the more mass the projectile has the more energy it takes to propel it and the more energy it carries the more damage it's going to do upon impact as it imparts that energy into the target. Small caliber FMJ's are going to more easily pass through (penetrate), while larger, heavier, slower rounds are going to stop on impact and destroy more tissue upon shallow penetration.

 

This is simple physics man.. You don't have to be a gun nut to understand these concepts, and I'm not arguing that one round is better or worse. They all have their uses and there are so many variables to take into consideration that it's really not a black and white issue. But the PHYSICS of the matter is: Larger round = more stopping power. Let's not even get into armor, as it's a non-issue.

 

A 1970 Cadillac that weighs 2 tons going 50 miles per hour is going to do more damage to wall than a 2010 Honda Civic going 60 mph. The increase in speed does not mean it's going to bust that wall down easier than the heavier car. Likewise, a needle is going to penetrate easier and cause less destruction to a piece of paper than a dowel head would, going the same speed.

The problem with "stopping power" is that it's not really a measurable characteristic of ballistics. It's this made up term the gun community uses to justify one round over the other. At the end of the day, shot placement matters more than anything else, so using something where you can reliably and repeatedly put the bullet is most important.

 

That said, a .357 is generally considered to have great "stopping power" in the gun community, yet its size is much closer to that of a 9mm than a .45.

 

Are you also asserting that a .45 has more "stopping power" than a 5.56? 

 

Hollow-points were banned because of their propensity to do massive damage and leave the victim ALIVE, or to die more slowly. Not because they kill more efficiently. Even if the ban was lifted we still wouldn't use them in active warfare, as they're less effective against armed targets because they flatten and expand so well upon impact. 

[billyjo 9]

It's funny how people get all worked up over ballistics and bullet penetration.  The mk262mod1 round referenced above uses a Sierra Match King bullet that weights 77 grains.  This bullet, as the name implies is a target round not a hunting round because it is not designed to expand like a normal hunting bullet.  You can look on Sierra's website or any one of their reloading manuals if you need further confirmation.  When a bullet expands like most hunting bullets or ammunition used by law enforcement it leaves a wound channel in addition to the hydrastatic shock.  The wound channel is what lets all the bodily fluids run out which result in the death of whatever is shot.  NATO dictates that expanding type bullets can't be used because they are deemed to be inhumane which is why military ammo is FMJ, ball type or something that won't expand.

 

There are millions of dollars a year spent by ammunition companies trying to design a bullet for self defense purposes that will penetrate clothing (clothing clogs the tip of a hollow point which can keep in from expanding) and still allow it to expand but not expand so much that it breaks up.  The bullet also needs to penetrate because if you shoot someone in the arm without penetration the bullet can't get into the vital organs.  Most of the modern defensive ammo does this, the FBI tests this and is the standard for these tests.  They also do different barrier tests as well to see how a bullet will perform after going through things like windshield glass, sheet rock or car doors. This information can be looked up if interested.

 

Long story short is you're not going to shoot an elephant with a 22 because it doesn't have the power to do the job.  The 375 H&H is the minimum caliber allowed around the world for this type of work.  Most of the time when shooting any dangerous game the proven technique is to either get a round into the brain or break the animals front shoulders so that it can't charge you but that is a whole different bullet technology.

[General Zod 1118]

The problem with "stopping power" is that it's not really a measurable characteristic of ballistics. It's this made up term the gun community uses to justify one round over the other. At the end of the day, shot placement matters more than anything else, so using something where you can reliably and repeatedly put the bullet is most important.

Not completely truth, getting hit with with .50 bullet to just about any part of your body will kill you if not from the ripping your head off or turning your insides into mash that from a blood loss, because let's be honest those bullets will tear the limbs from body like they are tissue paper. 

Edited July 17, 2014 by General Zod

[Etherimp 1323]

The problem with "stopping power" is that it's not really a measurable characteristic of ballistics. It's this made up term the gun community uses to justify one round over the other. At the end of the day, shot placement matters more than anything else, so using something where you can reliably and repeatedly put the bullet is most important.

 

That said, a .357 is generally considered to have great "stopping power" in the gun community, yet its size is much closer to that of a 9mm than a .45.

 

Are you also asserting that a .45 has more "stopping power" than a 5.56? 

 

Hollow-points were banned because of their propensity to do massive damage and leave the victim ALIVE, or to die more slowly. Not because they kill more efficiently. Even if the ban was lifted we still wouldn't use them in active warfare, as they're less effective against armed targets because they flatten and expand so well upon impact. 

 

 

I'm on my way to work in a minute, so I am in a bit of a rush, but wanted to get to this..

 

My best friend from high-school was the lead on a mortar team over in Afghanistan.. when he got home, he got into a dispute with his wifes new boyfriend, and the dispute turned into a shootout.. My friend was shot in the side with a 9mm at point blanke range (within 10m).. He was dropped to the ground, but the bullet went through without hitting any vital organs. He survived, drew his .22 caliber pistol, and shot the new boyfriend 8 times, killing him.

 

 

Pop quiz: If you were Chuck (my friend), would you rather get shot with the 9mm, or a .357, or a .38, or a .45, or a .44, or a .50?

 

Pop quiz #2: If Chuck was firing a .45 instead of a .22, would the new boyfriend still be standing after Chuck scored 7 hits on him?

 

Another quick (true) story..

 

My father got out of prison in ~1997... in 2001, he was approached by 2 officers in a special crimes task unit, and announced to him that he was under arrest and had the right to remain silent, for bank robbery.. he was guilty, and knew it.. as the officer approached he drew his .38 special, and as he raised the gun to shoot the cop in the head, the cop pushed the gun down with his own hands, and my father pulled the trigger and released the round into the cops stomach, hitting his kevlar vest and leaving him incapacitated (temporarily unconscious).. The cops partner returned fire and shot my father 11 times with a 9mm before my father could bring the gun to bear on the other officer.

 

 

Pop quiz: If you are the cop that got shot, are you glad you got shot by a .38, or would you rather be shot by a .50 cal, or a .45, or a 9mm? 

 

Pop quiz 2: If the cops were firing .45 instead of 9mm, would my father still be standing after getting shot 11 times?

[Lithium1056 45]

allow me to rephrase, when I said stopping power I suppose I should have said knockdown power.

 

a .45 has more impact than a 9mm because it covers a larger surface area than the 9mm. That was my point.

 

also as far as capacity problems. there are a number of aftermarket drum magazines for the 1911. lol

 

but anyway off to more important things for the evening