Bases, persistence and mechanics

[theirongiant 200]

So we know that at some point bases will come in, I'm happy about that as it gives you a sense of permanence in the world, after you've mastered surviving the next logical step is thriving. A few other mods and games have implemented base building elements but they all have their good points and their issues. There are a whole lot of possible mechanics and problems involved, permanency, decay, looting, material collection, balance (lonewolves v big groups), storage, defence (both while you're online and offline).

 

So how do you see bases working in DayZ?

What mods/games have mechanics that would work well?

What mechanics work badly?

What new mechanics could be used?

 

I'd be interested to see what people come up with, I know Rocket has name checked Project Zomboid when talking about base building a few times, can anyone tell us how that works?

 

Hopefully we can have a decent discussion about it without it descending into flame wars.

 

 

 

 

[Katana67 2907]

So how do you see bases working in DayZ?

 

- Like they've said, barricading existing buildings and eventually player-placed structures

 

What mods/games have mechanics that would work well?

 

- None that I've seen. Epoch's construction system is every bit as janky, counter-intuitive, and completely imbalanced as everything else in ARMA II.

- Games? None that I can think of off the top of my head, that are trying to do both.

 

What mechanics work badly?

 

- Anything that involves picking an arbitrary "plot" of land, upon which only YOU can place structures.

- Hate to say it, but the method they're trying to go for (like that of The Dead Linger) isn't a favorite of mine. Yes, it's flexible. But I'd rather every building be like a vehicle, it has X window slots and Y door slots. You place barricade materials into those slots, find construction materials, and install the barricade.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Katana67

[theirongiant 200]

Would you make the bases lootable, how do you see that working? My problem with lootable bases is that it seems unfair to the base owner if they happen to be offline at the time, seems to easy to gank peoples bases during quiet hours. Don't know if you could do something like only make bases lootable while the owners are online although that would seem to invite people logging out at the first sign of danger. Combat logging is bad enough for characters without giving people the excuse to do it with bases.

[Katana67 2907]

Would you make the bases lootable, how do you see that working? My problem with lootable bases is that it seems unfair to the base owner if they happen to be offline at the time, seems to easy to gank peoples bases during quiet hours. Don't know if you could do something like only make bases lootable while the owners are online although that would seem to invite people logging out at the first sign of danger. Combat logging is bad enough for characters without giving people the excuse to do it with bases.

 

Rocket has said that they're going to be implementing a "zone" system, whereby if a player barricaded/created structure is fully cordoned off (ostensibly) that players will be disallowed from server-hopping into the structure. They cannot spawn inside of a barricaded structure.

 

I absolutely think they should be lootable and destructible, however. This is a massive flaw (among many) of Epoch's construction system and server settings. Safes... Indestructible bases....

 

All of which run contrary to the unforgiving nature of DayZ, in that you can store your loot indefinitely without any danger of repercussion.

 

Any fortification or barricade, needs to have a suitable and specific counter to justify its effectiveness.

 

For example

 

- Wooden Door (easy to construct/install, but requires Fire Axe to destroy)

- Fortified Metal Door (moderately difficult to construct/install, but requires some sort of moderately rare specific breaching round to destroy/circumvent)

- Hardened Steel Door (very hard to construct/install, and requires some sort of rare welding equipment to destroy)

 

But yes, bases should absolutely be lootable. In a persistent world, logging off is a risk. The same concept is demonstrated with tents now in the mod, this'd be no different (although, it would require much more specific loot and/or effort to loot a persistent structure).

Edited June 21, 2014 by Katana67

[MLG420blazeit 62]

Would you make the bases lootable, how do you see that working? My problem with lootable bases is that it seems unfair to the base owner if they happen to be offline at the time, seems to easy to gank peoples bases during quiet hours. Don't know if you could do something like only make bases lootable while the owners are online although that would seem to invite people logging out at the first sign of danger. Combat logging is bad enough for characters without giving people the excuse to do it with bases.

 

Yeah everything has to be 100% destructible and lootable. Epoch is for little bitches.

[Etherious 907]

Yeah everything has to be 100% destructible and lootable. Epoch is for little bitches.

xD That was a good one.

[theirongiant 200]

The issue I had with Epoch (i only played on servers with destructible bases) was that the game got dominated by the biggest group(s). They had the manpower to make their bases practically invulnerable while also having the manpower and resources to collect the counters easily. It wasn't a game for lone wolves or a couple of people to play as the dominant groups would go around ganking the small bases with impunity. I'd hate to see dayz go down that route. 

[Karmaterror 982]

I like that we will be able to board up houses ect, but I don't see it being an option for a long lasting base.  Concealment is key when making a camp and exisiting structures have none whatsoever. Not to mention that nothing we build couldn't be knocked down in mins....even seconds by a fully grown man with a fireaxe or sledgehammer.

 

I hope we get both options as I really want to use the barricades to "fortify" a building then try and hold it. They could keep zombies out for a bit and stop players flanking through another entrance without making enough noise to alert you. But I only see them as temporary.....no....very temporary things that are used more "on the fly".

 

I wouldn't trust my gear in any house that's been boarded up....but I would trust it in a tent buried in a pine tree out in the wilderness or a stash dug into the ground. Isnt that only logical aswell....who wants to set up shop in a zombie infested town....wouldnt we all be fleeing populated areas in search of sanctuary.....not barrelling in there with some 2x4 and nails trying to rebuild :)

[dgeesio 1034]

barricades are being done.

[mattr19 24]

I would like the ability to put tarps or camouflage coverings over our structures/vehicles/bikes so they are difficult to see from the air. 

[MLG420blazeit 62]

I would like the ability to put tarps or camouflage coverings over our structures/vehicles/bikes so they are difficult to see from the air. 

 

Unless rendering of object is fixed, it still wouldn't work. You can see cammo nets from the air just as easily...

[Chroma 61]

I've been giving this a LOT of thought.
Full disclosure: the following will refer to Bukkit server administration quite a lot (its where the bulk of my experience lies with regards to buildable structures and persistence)

Its been stated that they're looking into bolting onto existing structures to begin with, simple barricades initially.
I see a multitude of problems with that that need to be considered and thought through, if its to persist on a server after restart.

The only way i can see that working is for the hive to update that servers database table (and therefore persist in the world upon restart on that server alone) this is fine against zombies (when the collision and pathfinding get rectified) but not so much against players who can presumably ghost across servers to bypass any locks.

A way around it would be cuboids like Bukkits "Precious Stones" mod, whereby you can set up a perimeter where players can and cannot build (default is iron blocks, but its configurable) by allowing players to place something like "fenceposts" they could easily make perimeters around structures that would follow its geometry (thusly working around basic cuboid and radius based placements a la Minecraft) and those players would be able to define "SPAWN ACCESS" whereby if you spawn on a server, it performs a simple check to see if you can spawn in the region, if not you get kicked from the server with a ghosting warning. Something to let you know you're trying to access a field you don't have permissions to access. 
By enabling access tied to some kind of UID (presumably tied to steam account or battleeye ID to avoid nick changing glitches) you could allow groups to spawn inside your "base" or "fort" or whatever you wind up calling your locked down region. This could be as complicated as users throwing commands (in mc it was /ps allow [all/username] by clicking a field marker) or as simple as just having players you wish to allow access to stand inside the field and the builder throwing an allow command and granting everyoe inside the existing field permissions.
The feature with the latter is that you really need to trust a person because once you've invited them, they're in, no take backs unless you had some way of denying access to specific UID's. Id be all for it as it adds another dimension of risk/reward.

The trouble with a perimeter based setup is its very open to grief on a public hive (on a private hive you'll have access to all the tables, and be able to identify who placed what, where, and when. Much like LogBlock on Bukkit) initially i don't see much of a problem, because you don't spawn INSIDE buildings as you begin a new char. However as things progress to user buildable structures, its only a matter of time before assholes build upon all the spawn points and cause mayhem on a public hive, that presumably Admins will have no real moderation over, because giving out access to the public hive tables opens up a whole other kettle of fish in terms of abuse.

A work around would be to set up areas like Bukkits "WorldGuard" does, in that you can set up spawn regions where things wont be buildable, this is good in that it allows a developer to specify regions on a master map and then deploy it across all public servers rapidly, changes to the master as things develop would be able to be deployed across all instantly, if and when the need arises, (so end users are largely unaffected by and unaware of changes because they don't need to download any update)

But yeah, the real trouble will be how to handle policies regarding grief and abuse, as on a public hive there, it'll be unlikely that any given server admin will have much in the way of tools to deal with it, it also opens things up to injection hacks where an astute user will be able to circumvent protection, but the barrier to entry is higher there than simply downloading a script.

I can see the room for potential here, but also see the pitfalls if things are not implemented precisely and with a degree of finesse.

Its bound to be interesting anyway :)

Again apologies for anyone not buffed up on bukkit plugins, or database design/management, i tried to keep it as user friendly as possible though.

 

[Katana67 2907]

-snip-

 

The ghosting/server-hopping issue has already been identified as an area of development with regard to barricading. Rocket has said that they'd implement a zone in or around a barricaded structure in which a player (assumedly just the players who did not construct the barricades) cannot spawn/log in.

[Hikurac 115]

So we know that at some point bases will come in, I'm happy about that as it gives you a sense of permanence in the world, after you've mastered surviving the next logical step is thriving. A few other mods and games have implemented base building elements but they all have their good points and their issues. There are a whole lot of possible mechanics and problems involved, permanency, decay, looting, material collection, balance (lonewolves v big groups), storage, defence (both while you're online and offline).

 

So how do you see bases working in DayZ?

What mods/games have mechanics that would work well?

What mechanics work badly?

What new mechanics could be used?

 

I'd be interested to see what people come up with, I know Rocket has name checked Project Zomboid when talking about base building a few times, can anyone tell us how that works?

 

Hopefully we can have a decent discussion about it without it descending into flame wars.

 

How do I perceive DayZ "base building"? Hopefully just barricading and small shelter making. Here are some examples of what i'm afraid "base building" will become like.

 

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/_jyKv6rRXK0/maxresdefault.jpg

http://www.gamersplatoon.net/images/178/Screenshot10.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/scw94VVl.jpg

http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2014/12/1395581065-arma2oa-2014-03-23-14-18-17-07.png

http://up.picr.de/17512694dx.jpg

http://i1.ytimg.com/vi/-NT0tprpIYk/maxresdefault.jpg

http://files.enjin.com.s3.amazonaws.com/572504/module_gallery/original/1731582.jpg

http://www.xp4t.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Capture1.png

 

Defying physics, one player making entire cities, little amount of resources needed, borderline tower defense gameplay, sky bases, carrying entire buildings in the back vehicles, players are all apparently master craftsmen, copy paste buildings, basically Rust except probably even easier....

[theirongiant 200]

Another issue with barricading buildings is that it's locking up loot spawns, odds on people will start barricading barracks and other high value loot areas. Even if they can get destroyed I remember how annoying barbed wire fence were in the mod.

[frosti 2165]

 

barricading existing buildings

 

Not abusable and exploitable at all.

 

>bambi face when he makes it to military base to find all barracks and buildings locked

 

Stiupid bambi go search random heli crashes

[frosti 2165]

Another issue with barricading buildings is that it's locking up loot spawns, odds on people will start barricading barracks and other high value loot areas. Even if they can get destroyed I remember how annoying barbed wire fence were in the mod.

 

They can be destroyed IF you already have estabilished loot and enought items to have resources for such actions. Newspawns and bambies will be forced to search new server.

 

I saw it before in one of the EPOCH mods where all shit was barrickaded, including castles.

Edited June 21, 2014 by Frosti

[pillock 850]

They can be destroyed IF you already have estabilished loot and enought items to have resources for such actions. Newspawns and bambies will be forced to search new server.

 

I saw it before in one of the EPOCH mods where all shit was barrickaded, including castles.

 

More loot + craftable clubs from junk items = new spawns break down barricades. Hopefully.

[randomspawn 215]

I fear that if they put in a well designed and thought out system in place, that it will set back release by another 6 months. I guess things might improve, but the speed of current development already has us about 18 months from actual release.

[Hikurac 115]

Another issue with barricading buildings is that it's locking up loot spawns, odds on people will start barricading barracks and other high value loot areas. Even if they can get destroyed I remember how annoying barbed wire fence were in the mod.

Well the barricading is supposed to go along with the idea of persistent loot. If it's actually "persistent" then there should be no re-spawning of loot once the location has been looted. However they could make it where loot continues to spawn and if that's the case than yes, barricading would be somewhat broken.