Creating gear independent character value

[benedictus 160]

Well, tbh I think that would just add another layer to the item late game. What's the difference between a perk and an AKM rifle when they're both just items I have to take out of my tent after respawning? Learning them through items defeats the whole purpose of why there should be a perk/skill system in the first place.

 

Biggest difference would be that perks passively increase your stats/skills while the AK doesnt do anything by itself.

[liquidsnake 275]

I don't agree with your proposition, but you're on the right track.

My view: gain skills for surviving. No matter who you kill, what you have, how you play. Just survival. 

For example, survive for 24 in-game hours to gain the ability to make a ghillie suit. There should also be an amazing skill which you receive after a ridiculous survival time, as the ultimate goal for every survivor. This makes every single spawn valuable. This makes you cling to your life, rather than to your gear. This will make players' behaviour realistic, at last. 

If you manage to hold up a player, he'll do all he can to live, not to assure you get the least gear out of it. There will be the odd suicidal maniac or KoS'er looking for action, but they'll be realistically scarce.

The idea on itself isn't unrealistic either. If you, as a mere civilian, are dropped into a hellish world without any order, you'll learn to survive. You'll become a better survivor, over time. 

[Rigor Mortis (DayZ) 141]

I don't agree with your proposition, but you're on the right track.

My view: gain skills for surviving. No matter who you kill, what you have, how you play. Just survival. 

For example, survive for 24 in-game hours to gain the ability to make a ghillie suit. There should also be an amazing skill which you receive after a ridiculous survival time, as the ultimate goal for every survivor. This makes every single spawn valuable. This makes you cling to your life, rather than to your gear. This will make players' behaviour realistic, at last. 

If you manage to hold up a player, he'll do all he can to live, not to assure you get the least gear out of it. There will be the odd suicidal maniac or KoS'er looking for action, but they'll be realistically scarce.

The idea on itself isn't unrealistic either. If you, as a mere civilian, are dropped into a hellish world without any order, you'll learn to survive. You'll become a better survivor, over time. 

I like the idea of rewarding people for surviving, but I think your version is unrealistic and ridiculous.  If I grab some food/water and hide in a closet for 24 hours I magically know how to craft a ghillie suit?  Where did I learn to sew that?  I think the combination of time + skill use is really the best way to go... so if someone survives 24 hours _and_ has been working on their sewing skills by repairing gear etc _then_ they can craft some clothing items like the ghillie suit. 

 

Personally I would say 24 hours is far too short for such an awesome ability.  I would set the survival time at the 2 sigma point of the normal distribution -- i.e. only people who survive beyond 90% of others would get abilities like this.  Unfortunately I don't know what the mean and standard deviation for survival in this game are, so I can't give an accurate idea of the time required.  All I can say for certain is that i commonly live longer than 24 hours.

[liquidsnake 275]

I like the idea of rewarding people for surviving, but I think your version is unrealistic and ridiculous.  If I grab some food/water and hide in a closet for 24 hours I magically know how to craft a ghillie suit?  Where did I learn to sew that?  I think the combination of time + skill use is really the best way to go... so if someone survives 24 hours _and_ has been working on their sewing skills by repairing gear etc _then_ they can craft some clothing items like the ghillie suit. 

 

Personally I would say 24 hours is far too short for such an awesome ability.  I would set the survival time at the 2 sigma point of the normal distribution -- i.e. only people who survive beyond 90% of others would get abilities like this.  Unfortunately I don't know what the mean and standard deviation for survival in this game are, so I can't give an accurate idea of the time required.  All I can say for certain is that i commonly live longer than 24 hours.

The 24 hour ghillie suit was just a meaningless example. Still, I don't think it's possible to survive in a closet for 24h. At some point, seeking food/water will be a necessity. Even if you've collected enough food to last for 24h, you've been scavenging for quite some time before.

And btw, 2 sigma is 94%.

[minime1000 78]

Agreed. There is zero reason to care for your character right now, only for gear.

Edited June 7, 2014 by myshl0ng

[Rigor Mortis (DayZ) 141]

The 24 hour ghillie suit was just a meaningless example. Still, I don't think it's possible to survive in a closet for 24h. At some point, seeking food/water will be a necessity. Even if you've collected enough food to last for 24h, you've been scavenging for quite some time before.

And btw, 2 sigma is 94%.

Sorry I insulted you and made you defensive - I see that you were only trying to use an example and I shouldn't have nit-picked it.  Also, if you're going to correct my estimation of 2 sigma, at least do it right: 95.44%

 

Regardless I think you get my idea.

[Karmaterror 982]

I gotta say no to perks, sorry but its just so gamey. Like chanigunfighter said, theres nothing stopping you from trying to do something. I made a post ages ago about a knowledge system that I think could work to make our toons valuable seems to fit well here...

 

The basic idea is that you there would be lots and lots of different skills, These wouldn't effect any physical attributes but effect the degree you can interact with the world around you.  

 

Gaining a Skill

 

Gaining a skill would be done trough studying a book you found. This would take having the book open in game for at least 30mins.  It wouldnt have to be all done in one go either. 5mins here 5 mins there would build the skill...see below.

 

Skill Degridation

 

Once you read the book the skill will show up in your inventory in a new tab. It could either have each skill in green like the hunger, and have it slowly fade to red, then disappear. Or have 2 lists, one listing the skill one titled something like "retention". Retention is how much of what you read you remember.

 

Here's the twist with this idea, Each skill would slowly degrade over the course of 1 week. I carn't decide weather that should apply even if you aren't logged in, but im leaning that way. That gives you a reward for surviving but maintains you having to loot and care for your character.

 

If there were books for pretty much everything then your "knowledge" inventory tab, for want of a better word would be a living breathing thing. Constantly loosing knowledge over time, and having to "brush up" on a subject all the time.

 

Loosing a Skill

 

With something like this you could actually forget how to do things, and maybe you lent the book to a friend because its rare. Now you need to loot another or wait your turn. 

 

There could be a prompt like the food system, "I carnt remember how to do this"

 

Conclusion

 

In conclusion I think having them degrade could add skills to Dayz in a way that holds true to the survival type nature of the game.  It would give a reward for surviving a long time as your knowledge grew, but keep you constantly hungry for more. All the time struggling, along trying to remember everything you already learned. 

 

People could post screenshots comparing survivors brain power....aswell as the gear they carry :)

[liquidsnake 275]

Sorry I insulted you and made you defensive - I see that you were only trying to use an example and I shouldn't have nit-picked it.  Also, if you're going to correct my estimation of 2 sigma, at least do it right: 95.44%

 

Regardless I think you get my idea.

I do get your idea. It'd force players to grind certain things. If we go be your example of using the sewing kit, we'd get buddies shooting eachother with the .22 to damage gear and repair them for XP. We need a skill system which doesn't alter gameplay in any other way than making lives more valuable. Also, why not keep it simple and just attach a skill to a certain survival time, instead of an XP system which has to keep track of all sorts of things? Even the mod kept track of your survival time, and that was didn't even have a purpose. Sure, we'll get players who'll camp somewhere until they did their time, but that's just what we want: survivors, instead of mass-murdering goons with payday masks. I also believe that before this can be done, surviving on itself has to become difficult. Scarce food, detrimental weather, predators roaming the woods (which is the only viable food source through vegetables/fruit and hunting), etc. 

And on a side note, 95.44% is the area between -2 sigma and +2 sigma. For a population you should've taken the entire area left of +2 sigma, which is  approx. 97.7%  :)

[Rigor Mortis (DayZ) 141]

I do get your idea. It'd force players to grind certain things. If we go be your example of using the sewing kit, we'd get buddies shooting eachother with the .22 to damage gear and repair them for XP. We need a skill system which doesn't alter gameplay in any other way than making lives more valuable. Also, why not keep it simple and just attach a skill to a certain survival time, instead of an XP system which has to keep track of all sorts of things? Even the mod kept track of your survival time, and that was didn't even have a purpose. Sure, we'll get players who'll camp somewhere until they did their time, but that's just what we want: survivors, instead of mass-murdering goons with payday masks. I also believe that before this can be done, surviving on itself has to become difficult. Scarce food, detrimental weather, predators roaming the woods (which is the only viable food source through vegetables/fruit and hunting), etc. 

And on a side note, 95.44% is the area between -2 sigma and +2 sigma. For a population you should've taken the entire area left of +2 sigma, which is  approx. 97.7%  :)

I see now - you want to reward survival in hopes of reducing "mass-murdering goons with payday masks" while I want to institute a "reason for players to grind certain things."  Thanks for the clarification.

 

To be perfectly honest, I don't think either of these systems will stop much of the ridiculousness that goes on in the game because I believe that's linked to the maturity level of the players.  I do, however, think that gaining skill with certain abilities makes sense and would add a layer of depth to the game.  Capping skill levels based on time in game would limit grinding sufficiently... in fact, you could make it so players could only get one skill point every <generic time period> in a particular skill.  That way a player who was alive x hours couldn't just instantly grind a skill up to the x hour capped level.

[liquidsnake 275]

I see now - you want to reward survival in hopes of reducing "mass-murdering goons with payday masks" while I want to institute a "reason for players to grind certain things."  Thanks for the clarification.

 

To be perfectly honest, I don't think either of these systems will stop much of the ridiculousness that goes on in the game because I believe that's linked to the maturity level of the players.  I do, however, think that gaining skill with certain abilities makes sense and would add a layer of depth to the game.  Capping skill levels based on time in game would limit grinding sufficiently... in fact, you could make it so players could only get one skill point every <generic time period> in a particular skill.  That way a player who was alive x hours couldn't just instantly grind a skill up to the x hour capped level.

I don't think maturity has to do with the suicidal mindset of the majority, since it seemed quite fine in the mod. There, kids (and new players) were massively naive, and were more likely to team up than KoS. The mature ones used to be the heroes/bandits (and the odd KoS'er), the pubescent ones the KoS'ers and the pre-pubescent kids the ones who were helped by heroes or screwed over by bandits, roughly. Now, well-nigh everyone seems to KoS. It's either SA or the influx of new players that's to blame, in my view. 

I always loved DayZ for the sound balance between bandits, heroes, mere survivors and KoS'ers. SA seems to solely consist of a huge amount of KoS'ers, a decent (though inadequate) amount of bandits and heroes/survivors are virtually absent. There's also this unhealthy mindset of "gear is all" floating around Chernarus. If I hold someone up, they become suicidal and try to make sure I only get ruined gear. Especially the latter is what I'm hoping to eradicate by making life something to be cherished by the player. A valuable life will hopefully shift the majority from KoS'er to survivor, which would even out the balance at least a bit. Chances are it would just create more KoS due to decreased trust in others, however.

[xalienax 621]

I don't think maturity has to do with the suicidal mindset of the majority, since it seemed quite fine in the mod. There, kids (and new players) were massively naive, and were more likely to team up than KoS. The mature ones used to be the heroes/bandits (and the odd KoS'er), the pubescent ones the KoS'ers and the pre-pubescent kids the ones who were helped by heroes or screwed over by bandits, roughly. Now, well-nigh everyone seems to KoS. It's either SA or the influx of new players that's to blame, in my view. 

I always loved DayZ for the sound balance between bandits, heroes, mere survivors and KoS'ers. SA seems to solely consist of a huge amount of KoS'ers, a decent (though inadequate) amount of bandits and heroes/survivors are virtually absent. There's also this unhealthy mindset of "gear is all" floating around Chernarus. If I hold someone up, they become suicidal and try to make sure I only get ruined gear. Especially the latter is what I'm hoping to eradicate by making life something to be cherished by the player. A valuable life will hopefully shift the majority from KoS'er to survivor, which would even out the balance at least a bit. Chances are it would just create more KoS due to decreased trust in others, however.

Gear has always been the only thing of value In-game (the other part being the person behind the keyboard and thier knowledge of the game). I cant really pinpoint what caused the Shift between dayZ mod (vanilla) and the SA- What i do know is the mod had all the good and bad of the SA, it was just more spread around. I think a few things may have effected it

 

-Damaged gear and attachments that effect weapon stats put more emphasis or more individual peices of gear; and also means it makes more sence for a victim to do something suicidal to prevent you getting the gear in any decent condition.

 

-Lack of persistent storage and the inability to re-gear and horde supplies at a clan base means people care that much more about whats on thier body then ever before.

 

-more concentrated spawns (likely for testing) result in more encounters with fresh spawns/low geared players rthat have "nothing to loose".

 

-Lack of motor vehciles means that even the clans are sticking close to spawn for ease of re-grouping.

 

=================================

As for the actual topic of this thread?

 

well i considered making almost this exact same topic a few times; but i have yet to come up with any system that's not either intursive or punishing to one type of player over another. Ultimately, I feel that any kind of levelling system will only increase the divide between players and increase the animostiy between those who race to the end game and those who want to "enjoy the trip".

 

Also, another thing to consider is, as The End. and others have said, the harder it is to get back to your previous status after death, the more likely people are to either avoid contact ot Kill rather then try to attempt interaction of any kind. if simply getting off the beach is really punishing, or all my leveling from my 2 weeks old character is lost in death; i will never peacefully encounter non-clan members for any reason, and if forced into an encounter i will certainly try to take them out rather then take on the risk of assesing thier intentions.