Why Were Helicopters "Overpowered" In The Vanilla Mod?

[ZomboWTF 527]

i really doubt that 3rd person will be available for any mode, if it will, i'll go hardcore only, but it would break the immersion for me too drastically

 

however, you are basically right, client side zombie spawns will not be in the game, and the graphics i hope will get fixed

 

helis will not be as powerfull in SA as in the Mod, also i guess they will be far far FAR harder to maintain

[liquidsnake 275]

Choppers shouldn't be able to see camps unless they're placed in an open field. It should be really difficult to spot a player from a chopper unless they're standing up in an open field. They should also be a lot more susceptible to all kinds of attacks, 7.62 should be a chopper killer and 5.56 a chopper mangler. Both 7.62 and 5.56 penetrate the chopper easily and can hit those inside from just about any angle. 
Yes choppers were "OP" compared to RL, so let's fix them instead of just getting rid of them. Choppers don't offer some sort of all seeing bird's eye view, it's actually quite difficult to spot a lone man or a small squad from a chopper unless they're running through an open field with hot pink shirts. And choppers are of course very easily damaged by fire. They're also extremely hard to fly compared to planes. 

Make them more realistic and your problem is solved. They're high-profile, weak means of transport. Yes they're fast, but once you try to land somewhere to pick up some buddies, every single player within a mile would be on you within a matter of seconds. They're not OP in any way, shape or form (if done right). So please, instead of getting rid of this nice addition to the game, try to make sure it's done right.

[gibonez 3633]

Choppers shouldn't be able to see camps unless they're placed in an open field. It should be really difficult to spot a player from a chopper unless they're standing up in an open field. They should also be a lot more susceptible to all kinds of attacks, 7.62 should be a chopper killer and 5.56 a chopper mangler. Both 7.62 and 5.56 penetrate the chopper easily and can hit those inside from just about any angle. 

Yes choppers were "OP" compared to RL, so let's fix them instead of just getting rid of them. Choppers don't offer some sort of all seeing bird's eye view, it's actually quite difficult to spot a lone man or a small squad from a chopper unless they're running through an open field with hot pink shirts. And choppers are of course very easily damaged by fire. They're also extremely hard to fly compared to planes. 

Make them more realistic and your problem is solved. They're high-profile, weak means of transport. Yes they're fast, but once you try to land somewhere to pick up some buddies, every single player within a mile would be on you within a matter of seconds. They're not OP in any way, shape or form (if done right). So please, instead of getting rid of this nice addition to the game, try to make sure it's done right.

 

So long as the choppers exist there is no way to fix them.

 

So long as they fly they will be detrimental to gameplay.

 

The only role I see choppers playing in SA without being hurtful to the game is in chopper crashes where you can find loot.

[Mathylde 3]

I havn't played the mod, but from what have been said in this thread, It appears that there were 2 issues with helis :

 

1) ability to control several helis (all for maximun prejudis) (i.e : denying heli to any one but you).

 

That obviously comes from the ease to acquire and maintaine helis. One helis should be so difficult to repair and maintaine that even flying it to spot and destroy other heli should be a difficult decision. You don't fly an heli on a dare in a post-apo world.

Acquiring an heli can be made more difficult by increasing the amount of stuff you need to repair it to a flying state.

Maintaining an heli can be made difficult easely with one thing : fuel. An heli doesn't fly on car gaz or diesel. It require aircraft grad fuel. Make that difficult enough to acquire and you'll see an heli in the sky only once or two times a week.

 

2) ability to see every thing from a heli.

 

Something has changed between the mod and SA. From a dev blog/interview, i've read that in the Mod you could see at virtualy any distance. In SA, servers don't send to you informations of what is in the world unless it is in a 1800m radius from you. And the higher you'll fly, the smaller the radius of what you'll see on the ground will be.

This radius could even be ajusted for when you are on a chopper to be smaller.

 

 

 

For me, as long as issue 1) is porperly adressed and 2) get further adjusment, helis would be ok.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Mathylde

[liquidsnake 275]

So long as the choppers exist there is no way to fix them.

 

So long as they fly they will be detrimental to gameplay.

 

The only role I see choppers playing in SA without being hurtful to the game is in chopper crashes where you can find loot.

That's a bold statement.

I'd like to hear why not. Seems enough to me if choppers are relatively easy to take down with common weapons, made extremely difficult to fly and not as all-seeing as it was in the mod. And it isn't even balancing, because that's how choppers actually are supposed to be. 

[Katana67 2907]

That's a bold statement.

I'd like to hear why not. Seems enough to me if choppers are relatively easy to take down with common weapons, made extremely difficult to fly and not as all-seeing as it was in the mod. And it isn't even balancing, because that's how choppers actually are supposed to be. 

 

Again, there's two schools. One which views the act of flight in and of itself as irrevocably undue. The other doesn't, and views the ability to fly as being in need of justification or mitigation (via the things mentioned throughout the thread).

 

Unfortunately, these are polar opposite points which both rely on one's subjective understanding of the facts (i.e. that the fact of helicopters flying and being speedy is either okay or not okay). Neither with any more merit than the other. But I've been very upfront with my stance, I don't view the ability to fly about or traverse the map rapidly as undue (given a myriad of potential factors, such as likelihood of repair/discovery). However, I do see the error in some of the systems in the mod which allowed for the helicopter to gain a relatively easy advantage in certain situations. I'm in favor of mitigating those, vice removing the helicopter based solely on the premise that it can fly and go places rapidly.

 

Luckily, the development pipeline seems to be in favor of implementing helicopters again. Which is why I made this thread, to discuss ways in which it can be made better. Not discuss the merits of its mere inclusion.

Edited May 20, 2014 by Katana67

[gibonez 3633]

That's a bold statement.

I'd like to hear why not. Seems enough to me if choppers are relatively easy to take down with common weapons, made extremely difficult to fly and not as all-seeing as it was in the mod. And it isn't even balancing, because that's how choppers actually are supposed to be. 

 

Those factors all do not matter.

 

What makes choppers "overpowered" is their ability to see everything for miles with absolute clarity.

 

Within 10 minutes of chopper can cover the entire map. A players base that he has done a terrific job hiding and has had nobody come across it for months would be instantly useless because all it takes is a simple pass from a helicopter to see it from 4 miles away cause it will stick out like a sore thumb .

 

The armor, difficulty to fly, and ease to repair are not the problem the problem is inherent to the chopper itself , the problem is its ability to fly.

[liquidsnake 275]

Those factors all do not matter.

 

What makes choppers "overpowered" is their ability to see everything for miles with absolute clarity.

 

Within 10 minutes of chopper can cover the entire map. A players base that he has done a terrific job hiding and has had nobody come across it for months would be instantly useless because all it takes is a simple pass from a helicopter to see it from 4 miles away cause it will stick out like a sore thumb .

 

The armor, difficulty to fly, and ease to repair are not the problem the problem is inherent to the chopper itself , the problem is its ability to fly.

Well, someone didn't read any of my posts. I stressed that chopper are to be realistic. As I said before, looking from a chopper doesn't grant you some sort of all-seeing bird's eye view. It's actually extremely challenging to even spot a group of people, unless they all wear bright purple clothing. Spotting a tent is even more challenging, naturally. This is how it should be, because that's how it is IRL. After all, there's a reason military exfils require smoke to be thrown to mark their position. If it's not there, the pilots won't go "Hey! There they are!" and land, but rather "Are those humans, or... just bushes? I can't see" and fly off.

Also, I can't comprehend why you're so hellbent on destroying every chance of choppers getting featured in SA, while there's a simple way of fixing it, without adding an unrealistic balance to the mix.  

[gibonez 3633]

Well, someone didn't read any of my posts. I stressed that chopper are to be realistic. As I said before, looking from a chopper doesn't grant you some sort of all-seeing bird's eye view. It's actually extremely challenging to even spot a group of people, unless they all wear bright purple clothing. Spotting a tent is even more challenging, naturally. This is how it should be, because that's how it is IRL. After all, there's a reason military exfils require smoke to be thrown to mark their position. If it's not there, the pilots won't go "Hey! There they are!" and land, but rather "Are those humans, or... just bushes? I can't see" and fly off.

Also, I can't comprehend why you're so hellbent on destroying every chance of choppers getting featured in SA, while there's a simple way of fixing it, without adding an unrealistic balance to the mix.  

 

Well that is never going to happen in Dayz because of the engine.

[liquidsnake 275]

Well that is never going to happen in Dayz because of the engine.

No ability to zoom in while in a chopper, being restricted to 1PP while in a chopper, a fixed 3rd person view that doesn't allow for exploiting, a decreased FOV so that the chopper covers most of the screen in 3PP, actually making tents/stashes well camouflaged (and not with neon colours like in the mod), not rendering any objects from a certain height/distance (this might be a little extreme), thwart them from paying attention to their surroundings by making flying so severely difficult that utmost concentration is needed. Etc. etc.

[gibonez 3633]

No ability to zoom in while in a chopper, being restricted to 1PP while in a chopper, a fixed 3rd person view that doesn't allow for exploiting, a decreased FOV so that the chopper covers most of the screen in 3PP, actually making tents/stashes well camouflaged (and not with neon colours like in the mod), not rendering any objects from a certain height/distance (this might be a little extreme), thwart them from paying attention to their surroundings by making flying so severely difficult that utmost concentration is needed. Etc. etc.

 

Those all sound like heavy restrictions that are being brought on due to choppers.

 

Why not just you know not add choppers at all and not have to gimp anything including render distance.

[liquidsnake 275]

Those all sound like heavy restrictions that are being brought on due to choppers.

 

Why not just you know not add choppers at all and not have to gimp anything including render distance.

Well-nigh everything I posted does not require any interference with the engine whatsoever. Most are restrictions solely for chopper occupants that are brought to life by adding a simple code.

[Insane Ruffles 74]

I gather you've never played with a group with a heli. People LEAVE the server because of the ultimate power that you wield with your heli. The game becomes boring because nobody wants to play on a server where things that you work towards - vehicles or camps  - are found within couple of hour by the all seeing heli.

 

Also, trust me, going through all the possible places (on foot) where there COULD be a heli can take you a LOT of hours. The helis might be spread out or all in one place, good luck finding them when you don't have one.

That is total BS. Never has anyone left because of a Heli in a server unless it was a combat chopper. Stop lying through your teeth please.

[Katana67 2907]

That is total BS. Never has anyone left because of a Heli in a server unless it was a combat chopper. Stop lying through your teeth please.

 

When I saw you like a post from here, I was hoping that you wouldn't necro the thread!

 

Learned after this that helicopters are one of the "hotbutton" issues to stay away from, lest the frothing masses return to derail any serious debate.

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

I support the addition of MANPADS.

 

Your arguments against this are invalid.

[Katana67 2907]

I support the addition of MANPADS.

 

Your arguments against this are invalid.

 

Brah, this is a poor part of Russia! They don't have MANPADS in farmhouses! Der! /sarcasm

 

This (Chernarus) is a militarized conflict zone distinct from that of Russia where military hardware is/was commonplace throughout said conflict, and the most current real-world examples feature heavy use of MANPADS and far more complex SPAAG systems (see Ukraine) /actuality

 

EDIT - Mods, wouldn't mind a lock.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Katana67

[Insane Ruffles 74]

When I saw you like a post from here, I was hoping that you wouldn't necro the thread!

 

Learned after this that helicopters are one of the "hotbutton" issues to stay away from, lest the frothing masses return to derail any serious debate.

I know but these people are driving me insane, considering most of them haven't even encountered helicopters! When someone makes a ridiculous claim like that it gets me kind of worked up...

[Katana67 2907]

I know but these people are driving me insane, considering most of them haven't even encountered helicopters! When someone makes a ridiculous claim like that it gets me kind of worked up...

 

Only thing that gets me worked up is when people assert that the act of flight is, in and of itself, wholly "overpowered" and entirely incapable of being tailored to fit DayZ appropriately. Then they assert that interpretation as hard fact.

 

Hence why I don't post about helicopters anymore.

Edited July 24, 2014 by Katana67

[SwitchSL (DayZ) 17]

But you just did...

 

70,570,710 reasons why you will more than likely never see helicopters before Dean's end-of-the-year permanent vacation from this game, and will only maybe see them once the modders take over and attempt to finish what Dean couldn't AGAIN.

Edited July 24, 2014 by SwitchSL

[Katana67 2907]

But you just did...

 

After having told the person who necro-d the two month old thread that I didn't want that to happen, and after having requested a mod to lock the thread.

 

If someone goes through the trouble of quoting what I say and/or responding to what I say, I will do the courtesy of replying back.

 

Sorry???

Edited July 24, 2014 by Katana67

[hellcat420 212]

i dont remember any aircraft being op in the mod, did i miss something?

[Mullraugh 1151]

I miss helicopters. 70% of the awesome adventures I had in the mod had at least one helicopter involved.

[Cap'n (DayZ) 1827]

Brah, this is a poor part of Russia! They don't have MANPADS in farmhouses! Der! /sarcasm

 

This (Chernarus) is a militarized conflict zone distinct from that of Russia where military hardware is/was commonplace throughout said conflict, and the most current real-world examples feature heavy use of MANPADS and far more complex SPAAG systems (see Ukraine) /actuality

 

EDIT - Mods, wouldn't mind a lock.

 

Strelas and Iglas out the wazoo.

 

This would make DayZ 200% better.

[OmpaLompa 5]

Having never played the mod I cant say much on the choppers, certainly armed variants would have to be rare among other things. I do think it is possible however, just make sure that they weren't as exploitable as they were on the mod (judging from vids) I would love to use Helis in Dayz situations with a group, would really reward teaming up with people. However it should be a last addition to the game, things such as persistent storage, better zombies and a multitude of other problems need to be addressed.

 

Someone mentioned manpads, perhaps having rare Launcher spawns, primarily RPGs but maybe a super-rare Strela or Igla (stingers are too American, not likely to be found in Chernarus) as said these should be extremely rare if added, but of course would murder choppers, and make it slightly riskier flying. (imagine Manpad ambushes)

 

The whole helo process, like the rest of the game will require extensive testing and balancing to get right.

[Mos1ey 6301]

EDIT - Mods, wouldn't mind a lock.

 

Locked.