Why Were Helicopters "Overpowered" In The Vanilla Mod?

[maybeme 22]

A great idea.

Hopefully whatever weather system they end up implementing won't just be "for show" and will actually allow them to have wind be a distinct entity.

They should add fog. Make it harder for snipers sometimes, raise FPS, and make it creepy af. Edited May 18, 2014 by AwesumnisRawr188

[Katana67 2907]

Like I said, there are two schools. One which doesn't view flight as an undue advantage. The other, manifested by you, does.

 

There's a difference between overpowered in innate capability and overpowered in practice. I never thought, whatever capabilities are ascribed to a helicopter, helicopters were overpowered in the mod (based on my own subjective anecdotal experience, which is ultimately all we have). They didn't affect the situation on the ground to a frequent extent, I never had a real issue with them. And when I did, it was more or less my own fault. But that doesn't necessarily matter.

 

Your main grievance is with the visibility offered by helicopters in the act of flight. I'm saying, that in the mod, there was no tangible ability for those on the ground to affect this. So, give them a means of affecting their own visibility (i.e. camouflage). Not to mention the systemic flaws in DayZ which need to be addressed (i.e. manipulating graphics settings and noticeable contrast via HDR).

 

The act of flying around the map is rendered moot if one cannot readily SEE important player structures/positions/vehicles. Which wasn't the case in the mod, tents and vehicles stuck out like sore thumbs (not to mention players with client-side zombie spawns) and there was little one could do on the ground to counter that. Even an un-tailored camouflage netting worked wonders in DayZ+ for me in hiding small outposts. Now, mind you, this isn't the sole fix to the issue you're raising. But it's a way in which the "visibility" advantage offered by helicopters can be mitigated (not removed).

 

The issue for me, with regard to rare/difficult is in justifying the advantages conferred in helicopters (as you're asserting). It's one thing to spawn next to a 100% ready-to-roll armed helicopter. It's another to invest days/weeks in repairing, fueling, arming a helicopter (only to have it be vulnerable to small arms fire when flying anyhow). Plus, I believe that if the mods teach us anything, it's that making things easier/common decreases their value and thus these items are considered disposable. Sure, at the end of the day, you're still flying a helicopter. But it's an investment, one which may not be worth risking in certain situations. And, in making them rare/difficult you're inevitably limiting the frequency of their overall use. So, in other words, you're less likely to even encounter a fully-repaired helicopter in the first place.

 

I am trying to address some of these problems not because I feel they're overpowered, but because others, like yourself feel they're overpowered (for different reasons). Not to mention, having to do things like resupplying and repairing helicopters makes for a deeper investment into the overall system. Vice just letting them come standard with ammo and repaired parts.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Katana67

[liquidsnake 275]

You're assuming an entire squad dies before a heli can pick someone up from the coast and bring them back.. not always the case. I can't tell you how many times it's come down to "Hey watch so and so's body, I'm flying down to pick him up."

Point taken. Didn't think of that and that does in fact go on whenever a squad has a chopper in the air

[Bororm 1156]

Maybe you don't get it...

 

I'm already used to the idea of helicopters. If they get introduced into the game I will use them. The argument for me is whether they SHOULD be in the game. In the end, my opinion and your opinion don't matter.. It's Rockets opinion which matters. There are obviously going to be people who want helicopters in the game, and there are those who do not. I am (and have been) outlining the reasons why I believe Helicopters ARE NOT GOOD FOR GAME-PLAY. For me it's not a personal issue. I'll survive/thrive with or without helicopters.. If anything, it'll make it easy to adapt back into my Mod play-style, which included hoarding vehicles and stomping camps out. I just don't personally believe this is the best thing in the BIG PICTURE for game-play and overall success/longevity of the game.

 

Whether Rocket puts them in the game or not is of no consequence to me personally. I'm a competitive guy and I have a competitive group of friends who all coordinate and communicate well together, so helicopters are good for groups like mine. But they won't necessarily be good for everyone, and that's the side of the argument I have been vocal for. See that? Yeah.. I am advocating against something that would benefit me, because I try to look beyond my own personal desires and consider things from a larger perspective, because I realize this game is more important than what's FUN FOR ME PERSONALLY.

 

You should try it sometime.

 

I play video games for my own fun, not other people's fun.

 

As pointed out, helicopters themselves aren't bad for the game either, it's a lot of other factors.  They actually create a ton of fun gameplay.  You're also a bit hypocritical saying you care about the health of the game then admitting to just running around stomping camps.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Bororm

[Frothyboot18 46]

Lol an answer to all the questions. Private hives. Lol you dont want helis? Find a server that offers non, you want apaches? Find a server that offers one. Arguing about what should be in game and not is useless. Dayz was popular and successful because it was the first of its kind, its longevity is due to the fact that you can look for the version you want.

Choppers werent overpowered, just avoid them...hide and Dont move when you hear them then dont shoot at them... As for finding camps, sh*t happens. One of my fave encounters was, i was riding in a vehicle, heard a chopper, i stopped by the road the road then switched the engine off, little bird then lands next to my vehicle.... One guy jumps out to take my truck, i jumped out, run around amd shot him as he entered the tRuck, then shot the pilot as he tries to take off.... It was and still is one of my best dayz experience... Worst luck that turned out to be the best day... Then again.... Ive been sniped out of my helis as i try to power up lol

[lipemr 160]

I play video games for my own fun, not other people's fun.

 

As pointed out, helicopters themselves aren't bad for the game either, it's a lot of other factors.  They actually create a ton of fun gameplay.  You're also a bit hypocritical saying you care about the health of the game then admitting to just running around stomping camps.

 

that's what dayz is about, dude, grieving other people.

 

Or you didnt realize it yet?

[lipemr 160]

Lol an answer to all the questions. Private hives. Lol you dont want helis? Find a server that offers non, you want apaches? Find a server that offers one. Arguing about what should be in game and not is useless. Dayz was popular and successful because it was the first of its kind, its longevity is due to the fact that you can look for the version you want.

Choppers werent overpowered, just avoid them...hide and Dont move when you hear them then dont shoot at them... As for finding camps, sh*t happens. One of my fave encounters was, i was riding in a vehicle, heard a chopper, i stopped by the road the road then switched the engine off, little bird then lands next to my vehicle.... One guy jumps out to take my truck, i jumped out, run around amd shot him as he entered the tRuck, then shot the pilot as he tries to take off.... It was and still is one of my best dayz experience... Worst luck that turned out to be the best day... Then again.... Ive been sniped out of my helis as i try to power up lol

 

good luck hiding when they can see you like a sore thumb from behind a tree.

[Bororm 1156]

that's what dayz is about, dude, grieving other people.

 

Or you didnt realize it yet?

 

I did, which is why I don't see what the issue is with helicopters.  I said in my previous post that I really don't care if people want to make their sole purpose to smash camps.  But his argument against helicopters is that they make it too easy to do so.  His complaints are not about helicopters themselves, but stuff like LOD issues making it so easy to spot camps which is something that could be addressed rather than simply removing the helicopters.  I am saying he is a bit hypocritical because his issue with helicopters is smashing camps, but it's as much of a player behavior issue as anything, it is not directly inherent to helicopters.

 

This game isn't meant to be fair in every situation.  Helicopters add for fun gameplay, just because some people can't handle having their shit destroyed doesn't mean the helicopters should be removed.  Systems can be balanced.  I don't get the hardon people on this forum have for removing shit completely instead of balancing or providing options.  The sort of zero tolerance stance people like to take around here is potentially really a lot more detrimental to the game than anything else.

 

The point of a sandbox is freedom to do whatever you want.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Bororm

[Bororm 1156]

good luck hiding when they can see you like a sore thumb from behind a tree.

 

This is an issue regardless of helicopters due to players turning their settings low.  Helicopters aren't the real issue there.

[lipemr 160]

This is an issue regardless of helicopters due to players turning their settings low.  Helicopters aren't the real issue there.

 

yes, they are.

 

From the ground you have your vision limited by terrain and LOS, from the air everything is 10x more clear and you have a clear view of anything in the rendering distance.

[Bororm 1156]

yes, they are.

 

From the ground you have your vision limited by terrain and LOS, from the air everything is 10x more clear and you have a clear view of anything in the rendering distance.

 

It isn't an all seeing eyeball mode man.

The issue is that between people being able to turn their trees way down and the way LOD works that it's fairly easy to spot certain objects and at times players.  If trees and bushes actually rendered in a way that provided good concealment it would be a non issue.

 

It's already being exaggerated any ways, as you're actually still very capable of hiding from helicopters in foliage.  Do people even play this game?  The amount of hyperbole I see around this forum is ludicrous.

 

Another thing to bear in mind is a lot has changed in the SA and we don't even know how much of an issue these things will be.  The way players render in, in the SA is already different than the mod, not to mention that players don't render in at all past something like 1000-1200m now (whatever the size of the network bubble is, you can already see this in practice from the ground).

 

If things need to be tweaked they can, simply removing something because it doesn't work perfectly in a few aspects is down right idiotic.

Edited May 18, 2014 by Bororm

[lipemr 160]

I did, which is why I don't see what the issue is with helicopters.  I said in my previous post that I really don't care if people want to make their sole purpose to smash camps.  But his argument against helicopters is that they make it too easy to do so.  His complaints are not about helicopters themselves, but stuff like LOD issues making it so easy to spot camps which is something that could be addressed rather than simply removing the helicopters.  I am saying he is a bit hypocritical because his issue with helicopters is smashing camps, but it's as much of a player behavior issue as anything, it is not directly inherent to helicopters.

 

This game isn't meant to be fair in every situation.  Helicopters add for fun gameplay, just because some people can't handle having their shit destroyed doesn't mean the helicopters should be removed.

 

The point of a sandbox is freedom to do whatever you want.

 

then add tanks with common ammo, as the point of a sandbox is to do whatever you want, right?

 

Helicopters are only fun to the clan that's owning it. Tell me if you find it fun when your stash that you hid 2km into the woods gets found on the next 2 hours after you logout.

 

DayZ is about grieving people, make it easy for some while making hard for others and you have your bullshit formula.

 

If you want air vehicles, add cessnas with vision restricted to 1st person view. helicopters never had place in dayz and were added only because there was literally nothing else to do after you found a DMR or M107 in the mod.

 

there's just no argument to justify adding these kind of vehicles to the game. Unless you add a tank with AA capabilites, following the same logic.

Edited May 18, 2014 by lipemr

[FrostDMG 398]

Point is, when you're the one with the heli, the game also becomes very boring for you, especially if you play regularly with a group.

[Etherimp 1323]

It isn't an all seeing eyeball mode man.

The issue is that between people being able to turn their trees way down and the way LOD works that it's fairly easy to spot certain objects and at times players.  If trees and bushes actually rendered in a way that provided good concealment it would be a non issue.

 

It's already being exaggerated any ways, as you're actually still very capable of hiding from helicopters in foliage.  Do people even play this game?  The amount of hyperbole I see around this forum is ludicrous.

 

Another thing to bear in mind is a lot has changed in the SA and we don't even know how much of an issue these things will be.  The way players render in, in the SA is already different than the mod, not to mention that players don't render in at all past something like 1000-1200m now (whatever the size of the network bubble is, you can already see this in practice from the ground).

 

If things need to be tweaked they can, simply removing something because it doesn't work perfectly in a few aspects is down right idiotic.

 

 

Serious question... did you even play the mod before SA was released?

 

Better question, have you even read the thread? All of the points you're bringing up have already been covered and countered. LOD, trees and bushes, blah blah blah.. You're talking about a complete redesign of the rendering engine for...helicopters? Good call.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Etherimp

[gibonez 3633]

There has to be better end game than finding and keeping a helicopter.

 

Helicopters are far too detrimental to the game to simply have them be the end game.

 

A more low tech end game like keeping a base and defending it would fit the setting and would not ruin gameplay as much.

[Katana67 2907]

There has to be better end game than finding and keeping a helicopter.

 

Helicopters are far too detrimental to the game to simply have them be the end game.

 

A more low tech end game like keeping a base and defending it would fit the setting and would not ruin gameplay as much.

 

Both will be just fine, in addition to other ground vehicles (which I hope are less inconsequential than in the mod).

[Karmaterror 982]

Serious question... did you even play the mod before SA was released?

 

Better question, have you even read the thread? All of the points you're bringing up have already been covered and countered. LOD, trees and bushes, blah blah blah.. You're talking about a complete redesign of the rendering engine for...helicopters? Good call.

 

How about instead of redesigning all that they simply design the ground items to be harder to spot in the first place.

 

Stashes completely nullify the easy to spot argument. There is an option avalible that's extremely hard to spot from the air, but that sacrifices storage capacity. Simply put there was a way to camp that made it almost impossible for a heli to see your stuff.

 

Just as the heli trades stealth for speed, a stash trades capacity for stealth.....it was balanced well. One could say endgame wasn't just going after the helicopters, but anti heli camping. Tents in buildings....stashes.....cars in buildings. Removing the helis, removes all of this gameplay and strategy.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Karmaterror

[Etherimp 1323]

How about instead of redesigning all that they simply design the ground items to be harder to spot in the first place.

 

Stashes completely nullify the easy to spot argument. There is an option avalible that's extremely hard to spot from the air, but that sacrifices storage capacity. Simply put there was a way to camp that made it almost impossible for a heli to see your stuff.

 

Just as the heli trades stealth for speed, a stash trades capacity for stealth.....it was balanced well. One could say endgame wasn't just going after the helicopters, but anti heli camping. Tents in buildings....stashes.....cars in buildings. Removing the helis, removes all of this gameplay and strategy.

 

 

 

Once again, you're asking for the game to be designed AROUND helicopters.. This is a CLEAR indication that helicopters are bad for gameplay.

[Karmaterror 982]

Once again, you're asking for the game to be designed AROUND helicopters.. This is a CLEAR indication that helicopters are bad for gameplay.

 

No...

 

Im saying campsite item textures(one set of ingame items) be designed to play well with what is an integral part of the dayz experience.

 

That's far from saying design the whole game around them.

 

Games have to be designed around the features they will include, of course some development will have to be done with helis in mind.

 

By your logic zombies are bad for the gameplay because elements will have to be designed around them..... so is loot....hell everything is bad for the gameplay by that rationale lol

[Etherimp 1323]

No...

 

Im saying campsite item textures(one set of ingame items) be designed to play well with what is an integral part of the dayz experience.

 

That's far from saying design the whole game around them.

 

Games have to be designed around the features they will include, of course some development will have to be done with helis in mind.

 

By your logic zombies are bad for the gameplay because elements will have to be designed around them..... so is loot....hell everything is bad for the gameplay by that rationale lol

 

 

You're attempting to make design decisions around helicopters AND helicopters will NEVER be NOT broken in this game.. They still provide ALL of the advantages I have continually gone back to over and over again in this thread. Zombies are integral to the game and can be fixed/balanced.. Not so, with helis.

[Karmaterror 982]

You're attempting to make design decisions around helicopters AND helicopters will NEVER be NOT broken in this game.. They still provide ALL of the advantages I have continually gone back to over and over again in this thread. Zombies are integral to the game and can be fixed/balanced.. Not so, with helis.

 

Easy to spot camps > Stashes

 

Whats the problem with the seeing if we have small stashes that cant be seen from the air?

 

Speed > Balanced by a complete loss of stealth + time investment for maintenance

 

They go fast, they also loud as hell and involve spending hours keeping them fuelled. In comparison a pushbike is slow, quiet , and has no running maintenance. Seems pretty balanced to me, whats the problem here again?

 

If they have to change X for the good of the zombies its no different form changing Y for the good of heli if they intended both to be in the game from the start.

 

Zombies are broken.....Lets fix them

Helis are broken.......Because they need fixing means they are bad for the game

 

Doesn't  add up at all im afraid :)

Edited May 19, 2014 by Karmaterror

[meat pie 632]

I never found them op because they are so damn rare!

[Etherimp 1323]

Easy to spot camps > Stashes

 

Whats the problem with the seeing if we have small stashes that cant be seen from the air?

 

Speed > Balanced by a complete loss of stealth + time investment for maintenance

 

They go fast, they also loud as hell and involve spending hours keeping them fuelled. In comparison a pushbike is slow, quiet , and has no running maintenance. Seems pretty balanced to me, whats the problem here again?

 

 

You're saying all of those things like they're equal..

 

Speed > Balanced by complete loss of stealth?

Who needs stealth when you can travel 15k in 5 minutes? You don't need to be stealthy.. If you're flying high and fast it's not like anyone is shooting you down. So.. why would you need stealth? The fact that you're capable of traveling 15k in 5 minutes is part of the problem, and you can't solve it by making helicopters loud.

Make helicopters audible from across the entire map.. If you take off at Balota, someone will hear the helicopter at NEAF.. Now, make the Helicopter travel Mach 3.

 

Balanced, right?!  Wrong. That analogy illustrates how silly your argument is. For balance, you need two equal parts, one which balances/counters the other. Stealth is not countered by speed and speed is not countered by stealth. They aren't equal. The only time you need to be stealthy is if you're afraid of being shot.. When it comes to infantry, Stealth vs Speed is balanced.. but helicopters have more advantages than just speed, which you completely fail to address.

 

Speed. (We already have things which are loud and fast.. They're called trucks/cars.)

Mobility (they can strafe, rotate, reverse, and hover, all things which planes and other flying vehicles cannot do).

Access (They provide access to areas which other vehicles/players cannot get... See: The tops of high buildings, castles, etc)

Visibility (They provide a birds eye view of everything around them)

 

People have suggested the following solutions to the visibility advantages

 

-Fog... DayZ Mod and Standalone both already have fog. Makes no difference. If it's too foggy, the people scouting camps just land or find something else to do (like refuel) until the fog passes.

 

-Better rendering... The games graphics settings are PARTIALLY client side, and I do not see that changing. It would be VERY difficult to dictate to the client with any degree of fairness what graphic settings they HAVE to use. The only solution would be to set the in-game settings at a "lowest common denominator".. for example: Bad PC's can only reliably view objects at 500 meters.. good PC's up to 1500... So, let's just set the view distance to 500! .. So, now you're overtly limiting someones PC capabilities to balance the game around low-end PC's.. You want the game to look like shit? I don't.. You want your good PC to be wasted? I don't.

 

-Lock first person mode... While I would have no problem with this for infantry situations, I've already outlined why this is a bad idea for vehicles. 

 

-Make tents/stashes more difficult to see from the air ... Sure this is a good solution. I would, too, like to see better camo'd tents and more difficult to see stashes.. but then we're not even taking into consideration the fact that Standalone intends to implement player-built bases, which we could assume would also be visible from the air. Rather defeats the purpose of player-built bases if they can just be robbed/destroyed every day by whoever possesses a heli.

 

 

And so far, I have seen no counters/balance to the fact that helicopters offer unlimited access and superior mobility.. They are inherent to the nature of helicopters. 

[Karmaterror 982]

You're saying all of those things like they're equal..

 

Speed > Balanced by complete loss of stealth?

Who needs stealth when you can travel 15k in 5 minutes? You don't need to be stealthy.. If you're flying high and fast it's not like anyone is shooting you down. So.. why would you need stealth? The fact that you're capable of traveling 15k in 5 minutes is part of the problem, and you can't solve it by making helicopters loud.

Make helicopters audible from across the entire map.. If you take off at Balota, someone will hear the helicopter at NEAF.. Now, make the Helicopter travel Mach 3.

 

Balanced, right?!  Wrong. That analogy illustrates how silly your argument is. For balance, you need two equal parts, one which balances/counters the other. Stealth is not countered by speed and speed is not countered by stealth. They aren't equal. The only time you need to be stealthy is if you're afraid of being shot.. When it comes to infantry, Stealth vs Speed is balanced.. but helicopters have more advantages than just speed, which you completely fail to address.

 

Speed. (We already have things which are loud and fast.. They're called trucks/cars.)

Mobility (they can strafe, rotate, reverse, and hover, all things which planes and other flying vehicles cannot do).

Access (They provide access to areas which other vehicles/players cannot get... See: The tops of high buildings, castles, etc)

Visibility (They provide a birds eye view of everything around them)

 

People have suggested the following solutions to the visibility advantages

 

-Fog... DayZ Mod and Standalone both already have fog. Makes no difference. If it's too foggy, the people scouting camps just land or find something else to do (like refuel) until the fog passes.

 

-Better rendering... The games graphics settings are PARTIALLY client side, and I do not see that changing. It would be VERY difficult to dictate to the client with any degree of fairness what graphic settings they HAVE to use. The only solution would be to set the in-game settings at a "lowest common denominator".. for example: Bad PC's can only reliably view objects at 500 meters.. good PC's up to 1500... So, let's just set the view distance to 500! .. So, now you're overtly limiting someones PC capabilities to balance the game around low-end PC's.. You want the game to look like shit? I don't.. You want your good PC to be wasted? I don't.

 

-Lock first person mode... While I would have no problem with this for infantry situations, I've already outlined why this is a bad idea for vehicles. 

 

-Make tents/stashes more difficult to see from the air ... Sure this is a good solution. I would, too, like to see better camo'd tents and more difficult to see stashes.. but then we're not even taking into consideration the fact that Standalone intends to implement player-built bases, which we could assume would also be visible from the air. Rather defeats the purpose of player-built bases if they can just be robbed/destroyed every day by whoever possesses a heli.

 

 

And so far, I have seen no counters/balance to the fact that helicopters offer unlimited access and superior mobility.. They are inherent to the nature of helicopters. 

 

Your base can be destroyed by anyone regardless if they have a heli. And that's sorta what I mean, there is the option to build a camp that they just cant see. If you want you can risk it building  tents for greater storage but knowing helis can see them better.

 

If speed vs stealth is applicable to infantry units then it must also be applicable to vehicles. But its beyond just stealth in movement its stealth in concealment. You would have more success stashing a bike than a heli. The fuel aspect balances it aswell. Its many factors beyond just that one thing.  

 

What about the fact you are directing people to your camp by flying there?

Have you never followed a heli then zeroed in on there base by listening to it come and go.....that 2000m odd audio range really hurts them there. Not to mention the huge dust cloud they kick up that then drifts through the forest.

 

Cars/trucks...

Yes they are loud and not particularly stealthy, but compared to a chopper, a small hatchback is Sam Fisher lol.

 

On that note is the ural overpowered because you can carve your way through the forest mowing down trees letting nothing stop you while lugging over 200 items and 50 weapons?

 

That also adds to it...heli cant carry that much compared to 4 wheeled vehicles.....another layer of balancing. The guys at BI balanced these vehicles for the Arma. They all have there drawbacks and advantages and those don't disappear just because we are playing dayz. We still want realistic vehicles and these were, by design, realistic.

 

Helis can reverse strafe ect.....

That doesn't  make them overpowered....that makes them helicopters :P

 

Yes they provide better access...but what for?  

Why do you want to land on a petrol station roof? to snipe someone? the big huey parked next to you may give away your position a bit.....stealth again ;)

 

I don't think they should be adding excess fog in or spending ages on the renderer just for helis. There are much simpler options, like just making the texture with that issue in mind. The stashes show they have thought about it for  long time, im sure they will have a solution in mind for spotting camps. Or maybe they wont, maybe that's all part and parcel of having a heli, and we will just have to "camp smart". Even in the mod it was not at all hard to hide a camp from a heli.  I hope they make it in :)

 

[xalienax 621]

 

And so far, I have seen no counters/balance to the fact that helicopters offer unlimited access and superior mobility.. They are inherent to the nature of helicopters. 

My counter is that they should. My other counter is the return of mil loot from the A2 mod like FNFAL, MK48,  M240B, etc. easy chopper killers.

 

If a group of players is to put more time and effort into obtaining and maintaining one single item then everything else they do that should then be the best thing you can hope to have. you should be able to extract from roof tops, You SHOULD be able to rapidly cross the map. you should be able to spot for your friends.

 

Chopper's dont need to go away. Badd weapon mechanics that will prevent you from being able to fight back do. this is an apocalypse. its not supposed to be "balanced" some things are supposed to be better then others. thats why you waste days or weeks seeking them out and more fixing and maintaingin choppers, and preventing other groups from having that abaility at every possible opportunity. and all the while all those who have been deinied this will be searching... and soone or later someone will find your heli. it may take much much longer  if they dont already have one but you cant hide you heli forever. and so the power balance in the server will shift to new hands. It's all part of the epic meta-game between the groups seeking supremacy in this apocalyptic wasteland.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Sovetsky