No "Specialized" Cartridges [Torchia Tweet]

[Katana67 2907]

If they made a 5.56x45mm AK-74 or 9x19mm Makarov it would be much, much, much more irritating to me since those cartridges have far larger differences compared to those weapons' real chamberings.

 

I just think they should ditch the AK-74 then, they've got 7.62x39 in, and there's pretty much a 7.62x39 counterpart to every 5.45x39 AK.

[BadAsh (DayZ) 1513]

Right, but that's to do with in-game rarity. Not whether the weapons use their matching "realistic" calibers.

 

They could still make 7.62x51 for the Mosin (erroneous by "realistic" standards) difficult to come by.

 

It is about rarity of guns on account of them using matching realistic calibers. Loot tweaking is a completely different story and I am not talking about that at all.

[Katana67 2907]

It is about rarity of guns on account of them using matching realistic calibers. Loot tweaking is a completely different story and I am not talking about that at all.

 

But you are, in talking about rarity, you're talking about the rate at which an item spawns. Which is directly related to the loot.

 

It's not whether they use "matching realistic" calibers, it's whether they use a SPECIFIC caliber. That caliber can be unrealistic, but the specificity of said caliber is the point.

 

If only a Makarov fired .50 BMG, then it's the same as a Makarov only firing 9x18M. The fact that it's realistic is tantamount to it being weapon-specific.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

They seriously can't come up with enough weapons to justify 5.45x39mm or 9x18mm being added?

That also means we're probably going to be out of 7.62x25mm, 7.92x57mm, 5.7x28mm, 4.6x30mm, .40, .32 ACP, 10/20 Gauge, or honestly any other caliber not in-game.

 

No Gewehr 98, no AK-74M, no Makarov, no Tokarev, no PPSh-41.

God damnit. I sincerely hope this is another one of those "until loot is centralized" points and not "yep, 5.56x45mm AK-74M everyone!" posts.

[Katana67 2907]

They seriously can't come up with enough weapons to justify 5.45x39mm or 9x18mm being added?

 

Well, I kind of see 5.45x39 a bit better than the others. There are 7.62x39 variants of 5.45x39 AKs for pretty much everything (AKM/AK-74M, AKMSU/AKS-74U, RPK/RPK-74M, etc.)

 

Would I rather they have both? Absolutely, but not necessarily to blindly accommodate "realism."

 

I view the need for a moderate variety of calibers as essential for a later balance of the loot and rarity.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Katana67

[-Gews- 7443]

I just think they should ditch the AK-74 then, they've got 7.62x39 in, and there's pretty much a 7.62x39 counterpart to every 5.45x39 AK.

[A] 5.56 AK-74

no AK-74, or

[C] some other gun in its correct chambering?

Options B or C please, and ten thousand curses on those who would choose A. But if you put it like this:

[A] no AK-74 or

AK-74 and new 5.45mm ammo type

Then option B please, and one or two curses on those who would choose option A.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Gews

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Well, I kind of see 5.45x39 a bit better than the others. There are 7.62x39 variants of 5.45x39 AKs for pretty much everything (AKM/AK-74M, AKMSU/AKS-74U, RPK/RPK-74M, etc.)

 

Would I rather they have both? Absolutely, but not necessarily to blindly accommodate "realism."

 

I view the need for a moderate variety of calibers as essential for a later balance of the loot and rarity.

Right now we have .22LR, .357, .45 ACP, 12 Gauge, 5.56x45mm, and 7.62x51mm, hardly any variety there.

I have a feeling they originally intended to have many calibers and then afterwards decided not to, as I doubt we'd have the Magnum at all (There aren't too many other .357 guns they could do)

 

And yes, I do agree that to do something for realism and none other is generally bad reasoning, but I still believe that fictional worlds should not require you to suspend your disbelief too much. Am I willing to believe that a fictional country utilized weapons that would be too expensive/unconventional in the real world? Yes.

Do I want to see depictions of those weapons butchered heavily to accommodate loot spawns? No.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[Katana67 2907]

Right now we have .22LR, .357, .45 ACP, 12 Gauge, 5.56x45mm, and 7.62x51mm, hardly any variety there.

I have a feeling they originally intended to have many calibers and then afterwards decided not to, as I doubt we'd have the Magnum at all (There aren't too many other .357 guns they could do)

 

Don't forget 7.62x39.

 

But yes, I definitely think it needs a bit MORE variety, just not necessarily a hyper-granular variety. And I think a good way to do that would be to add a dedicated hunting cartridge, add 7.62x54R as a distinct round as to justify the commonality of weapons like the Mosin versus the potential use of 7.62x51 in both the Mosin and a wide variety of so-called "high-end weapons," and perhaps a dedicated "sniper rifle" cartridge (like .338 LM).

 

Obviously there's still some overlap. But I'm not sure what their end-game looks like with weapon calibers.

[gibonez 3633]

I can understand them not wanting to bother adding

4.6x30mm

5.7x28mm

.22-250

 

or any other obscure ammo type but 5.45x39mm and 9x39mm have countless weapons that employ that ammo type especially in Eastern Europe.

[Katana67 2907]

or any other obscure ammo type but 5.45x39mm and 9x39mm have countless weapons that employ that ammo type especially in Eastern Europe.

 

All of the 5.45x39 weapons they're likely to add have 7.62x39 counterparts which is a round already included in DayZ.

 

That, and 9x39 is essentially just used on AS Val derivative weapons (VSS, SR-3, less so the VSK and 9A-91, though they're functionally the same as the first three).

 

If they were to add a weapon firing 9x39, it probably wouldn't be an AS Val or VSS. I'd bet it'd be a SR-3 or VSK as they're not integrally suppressed.

 

All of the other weapons it's available for can be chambered in other rounds (OTs-14).

 

At least 5.7x28 is used on a pistol and a PDW, vice just one type of weapon.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Katana67

[gibonez 3633]

All of the 5.45x39 weapons they're likely to add have 7.62x39 counterparts which is a round already included in DayZ.

 

That, and 9x39 is essentially just used on AS Val derivative weapons (VSS, SR-3, less so the VSK and 9A-91, though they're functionally the same as the first three).

 

If they were to add a weapon firing 9x39, it probably wouldn't be an AS Val or VSS. I'd bet it'd be a SR-3 or VSK as they're not integrally suppressed.

 

All of the other weapons it's available for can be chambered in other rounds (OTs-14).

 

At least 5.7x28 is used on a pistol and a PDW, vice just one type of weapon.

 

You just named a bunch of valid weapons that could use the 9x39.

 

Sure they are all sorta the same type of weapon but so what ? these type of weapons would likely be found in the games environment and ballisticially are unique enough to warrant their addition.

 

 

Just a handful of very valid guns that would make perfect sense in dayz.

 

I don't understand the need for variety in dayz, I would be perfectly happy with 5 or 10 different ak variants so long as they feel Authentic to the setting.

 

Nothing would feel more authentic to dayz than an ak74 issued to a conscript.

[Katana67 2907]

You just named a bunch of valid weapons that could use the 9x39.

 

Sure they are all sorta the same type of weapon but so what ? these type of weapons would that I think would likely be found in the games environment and ballisticially are unique enough to warrant their addition.

 

I don't understand the need for variety in dayz, I would be perfectly happy with 5 or 10 different ak variants so long as I feel they're Authentic to the setting.

 

Nothing would feel more authentic to dayz, to me than an ak74 issued to a conscript.

 

Yep, but those weapons that I listed are all roughly the same. You even said it yourself. So why would it make sense to implement a round which is used on, essentially, ONE weapon platform?

 

VSS = VSK.

 

9A-91 = SR-3/AS Val.

 

You don't understand the need for variety, and want things that are "ballistically unique." Those are two conflicting positions, you can't have things that are unique and not be endorsing more variety.

 

Right, and I'm saying they don't need to add 5.45x39 to have "5 or 10" different AK variants. They can just use 7.62x39, which is already in the game.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Katana67

[gibonez 3633]

Yep, but those weapons that I listed are all roughly the same. You even said it yourself. So why would it make sense to implement a round which is used on, essentially, ONE weapon platform?

 

VSS = VSK.

 

9A-91 = SR-3/AS Val.

 

You don't understand the need for variety, and want things that are "ballistically unique." Those are two conflicting positions, you can't have things that are unique and not be endorsing variety.

 

Right, and I'm saying they don't need to add 5.45x39 to have "5 or 10" different AK variants. They can just use 7.62x39, which is already in the game.

 

 

 

Just bugs me that we will not be seeing any of these weapons even though they would probably be found in any nation bordering a fictional Russia.

 

Each weapon is unique and fits a role but more than the the lack of calibers just means a change of direction in the game a change in the wrong direction.

[Katana67 2907]

Just bugs me that we will not be seeing any of these weapons even though they would probably be found in any nation bordering a fictional Russia.

 

Each weapon is unique and fits a role but more than the the lack of calibers just means a change of direction in the game a change in the wrong direction.

 

I feel your pain, and I want this type of weapon in too. I like the VSS and VAL. But you have to recognize why they're not pursuing it. It's not a "wrong direction," it's just developmental pragmatism. They can't justify rendering only one weapon, which uses a specific caliber that they'd have to make as well, at this time. Why do that when they can put in 7.62x39 and make fifteen different weapons?

 

And honestly, you can't really advocate against something based upon "real-world rarity" while at the same time advocating for relatively rare things like 9x39 and the Mk 12 SPR nowadays (it is being phased out, and is uncommon by comparison to AR-10 variants like the M110 and Mk 11 [or even the Mk 17]). I'd suspect that 9x39 is pretty dern rare in Eastern Europe, as it's a specialty round for specialty military weapons.

Edited May 22, 2014 by Katana67

[-Gews- 7443]

Just bugs me that we will not be seeing any of these weapons even though they would probably be found in any nation bordering a fictional Russia.

 

Meh, the guns are cool but screw the 9x39mm, the Makarov and AK-74 are by far the two biggest blows. The Tokarev third.

And about 9x19mm Makarovs, compare the standard 9x18mm to standard 9x19mm:

9x18mm energy = 305 J

9x19mm energy = 490 J

305 ÷ 490 = 0.622

Now compare 7.62x39mm to 7.62x51mm:

7.62x39mm energy = 2161 J

7.62x51mm energy = 3432 J

2161 ÷ 3432 = 0.630

 

 

 

So a 9x19mm Makarov is a big deal. Just about as bad as a 7.62x51mm AKM would be. At least they decided on the Walther instead...

[gibonez 3633]

Meh, the guns are cool but screw the 9x39mm, the Makarov and AK-74 are by far the two biggest blows. The Tokarev third.

And about 9x19mm Makarovs, compare the standard 9x18mm to standard 9x19mm:

9x18mm energy = 305 J

9x19mm energy = 490 J

305 ÷ 490 = 0.622

Now compare 7.62x39mm to 7.62x51mm:

7.62x39mm energy = 2161 J

7.62x51mm energy = 3432 J

2161 ÷ 3432 = 0.630

 

 

 

So a 9x19mm Makarov is a big deal. Just about as bad as a 7.62x51mm AKM would be. At least they decided on the Walther instead...

 

Indeed they are.

 

I rather not see an ak74 though if it is chambered in 5.56 nato.

[Katana67 2907]

I mean, they do make the AK-101/102 (export 5.56x45 chambered AK) at Izhevsk.

 

 

/hides

Edited May 22, 2014 by Katana67

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I think we're all forgetting that Chris constantly loves bringing up the "current loot system".

(In response to the VSS Vintorez suggestion)

 

Why he would bring up the "current loot system" in regard to the VSS Vintorez, a 9x39mm ammunition weapon, which is used in significantly less weapons than 5.45x39mm and 9x18mm, is very interesting.

My best guess is that he's saying; "If we added an AK-74M now, it would be 5.56mm", "if we added a Makarov now, it would be 9x19mm".

And he's definitely right, adding in too many weapon calibers while the central loot control isn't implemented would result in problems. However, once it is implemented, they could easily have only so many 9x39mm rounds able to exist at one time, which in addition to the rare gun using said ammo itself, would be more stable.

 

I think that, sometimes, as DayZ forum members and gun nuts, we overreact way too much (too severely, as well) and also get a little to over-zealous when we hear anything we don't like; temporary or not.

[Katana67 2907]

I think we're all forgetting that Chris constantly loves bringing up the "current loot system".

(In response to the VSS Vintorez suggestion)

 

Why he would bring up the "current loot system" in regard to the VSS Vintorez, a 9x39mm ammunition weapon, which is used in significantly less weapons than 5.45x39mm and 9x18mm, is very interesting.

My best guess is that he's saying; "If we added an AK-74M now, it would be 5.56mm", "if we added a Makarov now, it would be 9x19mm".

And he's definitely right, adding in too many weapon calibers while the central loot control isn't implemented would result in problems. However, once it is implemented, they could easily have only so many 9x39mm rounds able to exist at one time, which in addition to the rare gun using said ammo itself, would be more stable.

 

I think that, sometimes, as DayZ forum members and gun nuts, we overreact way too much (too severely, as well) and also get a little to over-zealous when we hear anything we don't like; temporary or not.

 

Agreed, but we can only go on what we're told and what we can see in-game! :D

 

It's one thing to debate the pros and cons of this path in terms of gameplay (which is actually useful for the future), but too often does that conversation get sidetracked.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Agreed, but we can only go on what we're told and what we can see in-game! :D

 

It's one thing to debate the pros and cons of this path in terms of gameplay (which is actually useful for the future), but too often does that conversation get sidetracked.

You strike a good point.

Most of the stuff we've seen regarding calibers has been done correctly, and we do have some 'uniqueishness' regarding ammunition (Like the Magnum and .357 Caliber, which is only really used in handguns, other revolvers, and a few lever-action rifles)

Edited May 22, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[hombrecz 832]

Would adding of 5,45x39 really hurt the game?

 

Oh well, another thing that I will have to hope to be added further down the road.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

Just as I suspected (read the last line)

Nothing to worry about :)

 

And he's right, for the moment we probably have enough pistols, and there are plenty of 9x19mm and .45 SMGs we can have before the PPSh-41/PPS-43/K-50M.

 

(Don't kill me because I want a Vector, too)

Edited May 24, 2014 by Chaingunfighter

[mastrplokoon@yahoo.com 8]

When it comes down to it this is only about adding one cartridge and changing the name of the other. We've seen the screenshots of an SVD-type rifle (possibly a PSL) and we have a Mosin. Both of these are chambered for 7.62x54r, not 7.62x51. Hell, the 7.62x51 we have right now even comes in a box labeled 7.62x54r. This should be common sense, really. When they want to build and design a G3 or something I can understand the reintroduction of the 7.62x51 but for now with the only weapons in-game and on deck taking the Russian variant I don't see why whoever's responsible for writing names and descriptions just can't go and change a little number for us.

 

Now onto the 5.45x39. The AK-74M would be a beautiful addition, having it's under barrel launcher and beautiful folding stock, then you have the 74 series in other classes such as the AKS-74u carbine and RPK-74. Mind you these are especially different from their M43 7.62x39 predecessors not just on the power of the cartridge but, especially with the AKS-74u, the design of the weapon. AKS-74u comes out much shorter than an AKMS (which basically could be had now in experimental with a folding stock) while having a higher rate of fire and less power. The alternative also stands for the RPK variant, if they don't go with "one or the other" comparatively the 74 version is scaled down in nearly all aspects but within some situations increased accuracy. The 5.45x39 also opens up the newer generation of Kalashnikov rifles as well, such as AEKs, AN-94s, and the AK-100 series.

 

From an environmental standpoint an AKM is very much out of service with former Warsaw Pact regions and if it remains it's deep into the reserve forces. An AKM is more likely to be found in the hands of illegitimate users, or non-military, while a AK-74 variant is more likely to be lining the racks within a military facility.

 

Would it hurt that much to have 3 intermediate (5.56x45, 5.45x39, 7.62x39) and 2 rifle (7.62x54, 7.62x51) cartridges?

Edited May 24, 2014 by Flembo

[Chaingunfighter 917]

When it comes down to it this is only about adding one cartridge and changing the name of the other. We've seen the screenshots of an SVD-type rifle (possibly a PSL) and we have a Mosin. Both of these are chambered for 7.62x54r, not 7.62x51. Hell, the 7.62x51 we have right now even comes in a box labeled 7.62x54r. This should be common sense, really. When they want to build and design a G3 or something I can understand the reintroduction of the 7.62x51 but for now with the only weapons in-game and on deck taking the Russian variant I don't see why whoever's responsible for writing names and descriptions just can't go and change a little number for us.

 

Now onto the 5.45x39. The AK-74M would be a beautiful addition, having it's under barrel launcher and beautiful folding stock, then you have the 74 series in other classes such as the AKS-74u carbine and RPK-74. Mind you these are especially different from their M43 7.62x39 predecessors not just on the power of the cartridge but, especially with the AKS-74u, the design of the weapon. AKS-74u comes out much shorter than an AKMS (which basically could be had now in experimental with a folding stock) while having a higher rate of fire and less power. The alternative also stands for the RPK variant, if they don't go with "one or the other" comparatively the 74 version is scaled down in nearly all aspects but within some situations increased accuracy. The 5.45x39 also opens up the newer generation of Kalashnikov rifles as well, such as AEKs, AN-94s, and the AK-100 series.

 

From an environmental standpoint an AKM is very much out of service with former Warsaw Pact regions and if it remains it's deep into the reserve forces. An AKM is more likely to be found in the hands of illegitimate users, or non-military, while a AK-74 variant is more likely to be lining the racks within a military facility.

 

Would it hurt that much to have 3 intermediate (5.56x45, 5.45x39, 7.62x39) and 2 rifle (7.62x54, 7.62x51) cartridges?

AKMs are still pretty standard in many former warsaw pact nations. Granted, many of them have been heavily supplanted by newer AK designs or other guns altogether, but you'd be hard pressed to find countries without stocks of AKMs available (Whether in service or not). Hell, even Russia still has the AKM in limited service, and I'm sure they'll keep racks of them in storage for years to come.

But in Arma 2 canon the AK-74 was the Chernarussian rifle of service and only a few soldiers, mainly militia, had the AKM/AKMS. However, the Guerillas and Insurgents made extensive use of the AKMs and AK-74s, so canonically speaking both are incredibly fitting to the scenario.

Both are honestly necessary to have a good set of rifles in the game, 5.45x39mm and 7.62x39mm open up a huge variety of weapons available.

[gibonez 3633]

When it comes down to it this is only about adding one cartridge and changing the name of the other. We've seen the screenshots of an SVD-type rifle (possibly a PSL) and we have a Mosin. Both of these are chambered for 7.62x54r, not 7.62x51. Hell, the 7.62x51 we have right now even comes in a box labeled 7.62x54r. This should be common sense, really. When they want to build and design a G3 or something I can understand the reintroduction of the 7.62x51 but for now with the only weapons in-game and on deck taking the Russian variant I don't see why whoever's responsible for writing names and descriptions just can't go and change a little number for us.

 

Now onto the 5.45x39. The AK-74M would be a beautiful addition, having it's under barrel launcher and beautiful folding stock, then you have the 74 series in other classes such as the AKS-74u carbine and RPK-74. Mind you these are especially different from their M43 7.62x39 predecessors not just on the power of the cartridge but, especially with the AKS-74u, the design of the weapon. AKS-74u comes out much shorter than an AKMS (which basically could be had now in experimental with a folding stock) while having a higher rate of fire and less power. The alternative also stands for the RPK variant, if they don't go with "one or the other" comparatively the 74 version is scaled down in nearly all aspects but within some situations increased accuracy. The 5.45x39 also opens up the newer generation of Kalashnikov rifles as well, such as AEKs, AN-94s, and the AK-100 series.

 

From an environmental standpoint an AKM is very much out of service with former Warsaw Pact regions and if it remains it's deep into the reserve forces. An AKM is more likely to be found in the hands of illegitimate users, or non-military, while a AK-74 variant is more likely to be lining the racks within a military facility.

 

Would it hurt that much to have 3 intermediate (5.56x45, 5.45x39, 7.62x39) and 2 rifle (7.62x54, 7.62x51) cartridges?

 

 

5.45x39 and 7.62x39 are so insanely different its not even funny.

 

The ak74 is a flatter shooting rifle allowing for more precise medium distance shooting much like the m16 and m4.

 

Meanwhile while the ak47 is pretty powerful it has more bullet drop making longer range shots more difficult.

 

5.45x39 muzzle velocity = 2,920 ft/s

7.62x39 muzzle velocity = 2,356 ft/s

 

Pretty big difference this allows for the ak74 to be more of a point and shoot weapon that is better for medium distance.