The hidden problems with PVP/PVE only servers.

[SystemiK 366]

The PVP vs. PVE debate has been raging here for quite some time now, and many people on both sides of the issue are championing the idea of having seperate servers for both types of gameplay but there is a point of view here which I rarely see mentioned.

Primarily, it fractures the community into groups, while the purpose of this whole experiment is to explore a singular group dynamic. Rocket "wants" a PVP dynamic present in the final game.

But how is he supposed to evaluate the effects of new gameplay mechanics and even more subtle game play tweaks if all the PVPers are on one set of servers and all the PVEers are on another? As far as an alpha test goes, this does not support the stated goal. If Rocket is going to be able to fine tune the interactions between PVP and PVE he absolutely needs both groups playing in the same space. Any other options will only make any changes to the game more difficult (if not impossible) to evaluate. It would be like developing and balancing two seperate games at the same time, when all he really desires is one game comprised of both.

Furthermore (as already mentioned many times) if you are going to have this split you have to PERMANANTLY keep both sides seperate. You cannot have people loot farming on the PVE servers and then PVPing on another server with said loot.

In my own opinion, if Rocket decides to do something like this in the future, well...whatever (I hope he does not) but now is definitely not the time for it. People think of what we have right now as "the game" but it's not even that. It's an idea and a loose collection of game mechanics under evaluation. Right now, we have no idea of how the finished game will play out. Everyone needs to relax and stop demanding that Rocket abandon his plans for the game in favor of yours.

Give him a chance to explore the game he started out to build rather than the one that YOU want him to build. You might find yourself surprised in the end.

[radius 0]

The PVP vs. PVE debate has been raging here for quite some time now' date=' and many people on both sides of the issue are championing the idea of having seperate servers for both types of gameplay but there is a point of view here which I rarely see mentioned.

Primarily, it fractures the community into groups, while the purpose of this whole experiment is to explore a singular group dynamic. Rocket "wants" a PVP dynamic present in the final game.

But how is he supposed to evaluate the effects of new gameplay mechanics and even more subtle game play tweaks if all the PVPers are on one set of servers and all the PVEers are on another? As far as an alpha test goes, this does not support the stated goal. If Rocket is going to be able to fine tune the interactions between PVP and PVE he [i']absolutely needs both groups playing in the same space. Any other options will only make any changes to the game more difficult (if not impossible) to evaluate. It would be like developing and balancing two seperate games at the same time, when all he really desires is one game comprised of both.

Furthermore (as already mentioned many times) if you are going to have this split you have to PERMANANTLY keep both sides seperate. You cannot have people loot farming on the PVE servers and then PVPing on another server with said loot.

In my own opinion, if Rocket decides to do something like this in the future, well...whatever (I hope he does not) but now is definitely not the time for it.

He isn't supposed to evaluate it. Botto line, you have people who want what they want. The reality is if I want PvP I will do it, if not, then I won't.

Rocket may want what he wants and that is fine. He has a choice, stick with what he wants or give the people what they want. That's it, end of story.

[Kageru 18]

Rocket is from a pretty hard-core PvP community (Arma-II) and with real life military experience.

The chances of him implementing a PvP / Non-PvP option is near zero, I doubt he even understands the desire and knows it would remove a lot of the challenge, so it's not really worth discussion.

If you have hopes in that direction wait and see if a meaningful humanity mechanic returns.

[Cicero 2]

bring back bandit skins and everything will be fine i more hate the fact i cant tell if you are a bandit. This courses shoot on sight which is gonna make the game stale. Bandit skins allow me to know i shouldnt trust you and will shoot you on site but if you have no skin then i am more likely to trust you and maybe even team up fixing 2 issues at once atm bandits can pk all they like with no consequence but bring the skins back and that is your consequence simple as that

[radius 0]

Rocket is from a pretty hard-core PvP community (Arma-II) and with real life military experience.

The chances of him implementing a PvP / Non-PvP option is near zero' date=' I doubt he even understands the desire and knows it would remove a lot of the challenge, so it's not really worth discussion.

If you have hopes in that direction wait and see if a meaningful humanity mechanic returns.

[/quote']

I have no hopes, and I am from a hardcore ArmA background too. mostly Coop though, as we like to have large scenarios against AI and other players. I am sure he understands perfectly well as stock ArmA is perfect for both PvP and purely coop experiences. He may want a purely PvP game and that's fine, but the reality is there is also a strong following for coop. I am not saying he has to go in that direction, it is just something a lot of people would appreciate.

[SystemiK 366]

I have no desires whatsoever for a fractured PVP/PVE design, Kageru. I'm simply asking for people to chill out and let Rocket build his game the way he wants it built (which includes PVP and PVE in the same server) as well as pointing out why splitting them apart at this point is a terrible idea.

[funionz 7]

http://www.dayzmod.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=10171

No counter-threads, brah.

[SystemiK 366]

He isn't supposed to evaluate it.

WHAT? Not supposed to evaluate it? I don't even know where to start explaining what a ridiculous statement that is...

[Legacy (DayZ) 1091]

I'll let the topic slide. You look like you've put work into it.

[haviv[3rdid] 57]

Rocket is from a pretty hard-core PvP community (Arma-II) and with real life military experience.

ArmA 2 is hardcore pvp? My goodness. I am sick of only playing coop vs AI in ArmA 2 and this is a breath of fresh air.

[funionz 7]

I'll let the topic slide. You look like you've put work into it.

You let america down.

[gurei 0]

just wanna say the OP is very correct! Rocket has impressed so far and i say let him continue.

On a side note this game would loose alot without the threat of PVP.

[Redshift 58]

Separated PvP/PvE servers would not work in this type of game. What you would end up with is everyone going to PvE servers to find loot, and then switching over to PvP servers to hunt people. So the PvP servers would be NOTHING BUT deathmatch servers with zombies thrown in the mix. It would ruin the entire feel and point of the game.

Plus you could not balance between the types of servers. As it stands you need to balance the difficulty of zombies alongside the difficulty of other players acting against you at the same time. With split servers you would have to rebalance the zombies on PvE servers in order to maintain the same level of overall difficulty.

[Refried 14]

i cannot imagine anything more boring than playing this game without PVP

anyone demanding a PVE-only server has clearly not thought it through and/or is completely inept at avoiding zombies

[SystemiK 366]

I'll let the topic slide. You look like you've put work into it.

You let america down.

What does America have to do with any of this?

[RuneNL 0]

2 reasons for private seperate servers (not connected to the hive)

- give new players a chance to learn the game mechanics and get familliar with the unforgiving engine of Arma II and the DayZ masterpiece. This way people need a less strong will to actually learn the game without being noob camped.

Ive heard people quit because they didnt get a chance to learn the game because of PVP.

- Play in "peace" with trusted individuals without the server being harrased by script kiddies and hackers.

I love the way the game is being made and it should be kept that way, but there should be a non hive place.

[nerfed 8]

What the fuck is the point of pve servers? As soon as you pick up a weapon of any type, the only actual threat are other survivors...

[disorder 344]

As I posted in another topic, you can't stop a tidal wave with your hand. To try and stop anything is futile. Make something idiot proof and they make a better idiot. Make something hack proof and they make a better hacker. Make something private, restricted or prohibited and everyone will whatever they can to make it public, share it and have a enjoyable playing experience regardless of what anyone 'wants'. Remember this is the age of instant, on-demand satisfaction...

What you would end up with is everyone going to PvE servers to find loot, and then switching over to PvP servers to hunt people. So the PvP servers would be NOTHING BUT deathmatch servers with zombies thrown in the mix. It would ruin the entire feel and point of the game.

That's absolute tosh, not everyone has that kind of mindset. Remember your language, everyone means everyone and you can't go around making sweeping generalisations like that. The fact is Some people might do that, but also some people might also kill you on sight, some might not. Some people want to roleplay, some think its stupid. And most importantly, Some people want PVE!

[syncmaster (DayZ) 63]

Not bad op. Almost every reply is horrible though.

One again people are saying no because its boring for them. How much of a selfish little brat are you to say something like this. You want to deny someone something they might enjoy because you don't care for it. Its not affecting you in any way. If I don't like baseball then I don't watch it. I don't demand they take it of Tv or stop playing. If you don't like the way this sounds, don't play it.

Obviously this is leaving out the fact that we would need different characters, which anyone who read the OP should know.

[RuneNL 0]

Let me put this as simple as i can:

OFFICIAL SERVERS: Full experience and connected to hive. Character saves and useable on all official servers.

UN-Official servers: Rules by server owner, character only useable on this server alone. NO HIVE CONNECTION.

[Lukio (DayZ) 24]

Give him a chance to explore the game he started out to build rather than the one that YOU want him to build. You might find yourself surprised in the end.

Aren't we all doing that anyway? What choice do we have except making suggestions?

TBH making a multiplayer game that incorporates PVE and PVP elements all in one is really difficult, the best execution I have ever seen was DAoC. This game had solid PvE (for its time) and maybe one of the best online PvP I've ever encountered. The only way this worked is by separating the PVE zones from the PVP zones.

Yes there were "all PVP" servers, but they never were that popular or fun to play on and the community was full with cheaters, griefers and psychopaths. Even EVE online with its cut-throat PVP community has some kind of balance. Unfortunately ARMA 2 & DayZ are trying to mimic some kind of MMO experience without the typical social aspects of MMOs.

Rocket will need to find his way of dealing with a mixed PVP/PVE environment. Aside of that most ARMA 2 players know full well that public servers have always been prone to attacks/hacks etc. that's why almost all clan/group servers are private nowadays, another thing that he somehow has to get a grip on.

[red_orchestra@msn.com 112]

Day Z is an open PvP game. There's nothing else to it. If you want PvE only then you're looking at a different game.

[Lukio (DayZ) 24]

Day Z is an open PvP game. There's nothing else to it. If you want PvE only then you're looking at a different game.

As long as there are infected wandering around its mixed PvE and PvP.

[Ballistixz 12]

this is a military simulator turned into a post apocolyptic world simulator. what would be the point in pure pve? going around shooting zombies/animals with no gain what so ever? the pvp aspect is what makes this game thirlling. if u dont like it go play diablo or single player in L4D or something.

i actually love the fact that you have 2 main enemies in this game, zombies and a even bigger threat humans. this is not a carebear world where everyone you meet is friendly

[disorder 344]

Wow that's so silly that people compare this mod to other games that have nothing in common at all. First this mod is unique in that it's randomly generated in a large open sandbox world. Secondly its generated over a tactical military shooter which emphasises realism. Diablo (3) is a fixed class, ultimate elite-fest catered to end game grinding and L4D is a 4 player coop corridor FPS. Do people not get why some want to play this mod their own way? Because its *unique* and its fun and if people wan't to play PVE let them.

This mod would not have had 60k~ or whatever it is, players in 4 weeks of people who don't want to shoot zombies.