The truth about heroes, bandits, survivors, KOS, and friendlies.

[execpro22 128]

Post #68 is the first where I responded "in general" to the KOS discussion. I did not respond directly to you or quote anything you said. I did not start an argument over KOS. I even said in that post that this thread was not a Pro/Anti KOS thread.

 

 

You made a criticisms of something I had said in a previous post insinuating that players who choose a KOS playstyle should all have the same reason for doing it...

 

Some of your arguments in this thread have been anti-kos so I'm confused as to why you get on me for talking about it, but for some reason you can say it all you want?

 

 

 

The only thing you've criticized so far is "KOS Whiners", which are not my views. You're making an argument where there is none. I am not "giving up and putting my fingers in my ears"... I am avoiding an argument with you because your argument is fucking stupid and not worth my time. I have nothing to gain by arguing KOS with you. Maybe you should ask yourself why you're bothering to chide me into an argument that I don't want to have?

 

 

Ok so Like I said by making statements like "fucking stupid" and "not worth my time" you are just giving up and putting your hands over your ears instead of responding to my criticisms.

 

Thats fine I really dont want an argument. You made some ignorant statements and I corrected you. Obviously you dont want to respond which is fine by me.

 

I did enjoy your original OP and thought it very helpful, the only flaw being your obvious bias with certain playstyles..

 

I look forward to more posts like your OP in the future from you...

[Etherimp 1323]

You made a criticisms of something I had said in a previous post insinuating that players who choose a KOS playstyle should all have the same reason for doing it...

 

Some of your arguments in this thread have been anti-kos so I'm confused as to why you get on me for talking about it, but for some reason you can say it all you want?

 

 

 

 

 

Ok so Like I said by making statements like "fucking stupid" and "not worth my time" you are just giving up and putting your hands over your ears instead of responding to my criticisms.

 

Thats fine I really dont want an argument. You made some ignorant statements and I corrected you. Obviously you dont want to respond which is fine by me.

 

I did enjoy your original OP and thought it very helpful, the only flaw being your obvious bias with certain playstyles..

 

I look forward to more posts like your OP in the future from you...

 

 

I pointed out that KOSers all have different reasons for KOSing, and that supported my original point that "Everyone makes their own justifications for what they do".. In other words: KOS is not the "better playstyle", just like being friendly isn't "the better playstyle".

 

I have my own personal opinions on KOSing. Namely that people who KOS are not making the most out of the game.. But it's not a problem FOR ME if it's not a problem FOR YOU. If you want to shoot people on sight, you're only neglecting yourself of the potential drama that could unfold if you interacted with people instead. 

 

So see, I'm not ANTI-KOS for you.. I'm Anti-KOS for myself because I believe NOT KOSing is the more challenging way to play the game.. Which is the part of your original post that I had a problem with.. trying to advocate KOSing for the fact that it's "more challenging" is absolutely ridiculous, and I don't agree with YOU on THAT. Doesn't mean I don't think KOSing is "a valid playstyle", only that you KOSing "to make the game more challenging" is a bullshit reason to KOS.

 

Lemme ask you this...

 

...Have you tried another playstyle yet? Have you tried being a hero? Or did you just jump into this game, start KOSing people, and therefor you support that playstyle because it's the only one you know?

Or perhaps you tried to be friendly a couple of times, got killed, and then converted to a KOSer for your own "survival"? 

Either way, doesn't matter.. Whatever works for you. Just don't go around telling people that shooting everyone they see is "more difficult", because it's a pretty well accepted reality that it's simply not the case. Hence why your argument is "fucking stupid".. Nothing personal.

[execpro22 128]

 

I have my own personal opinions on KOSing. Namely that people who KOS are not making the most out of the game.. But it's not a problem FOR ME if it's not a problem FOR YOU. If you want to shoot people on sight, you're only neglecting yourself of the potential drama that could unfold if you interacted with people instead.

 

 

 

I disagree as I have had some great drama during some shootouts that started due to KOS. I have also robbed people too which is contrary to popular belief, boring and kind of shallow...

 

Its always the same interaction... they either run, shoot or just let me handcuff them and then what? I can either torture them or just let them run off with less gear...

 

Not really that much "drama" compared to the countless battles I've had where I have lost friends or beleive it or not gained new allies after a fight is over...

 

See if you can rap your head around that concept because it is all due to KOS....

 

 

 

 

 

trying to advocate KOSing for the fact that it's "more challenging" is absolutely ridiculous, and I don't agree with YOU on THAT. Doesn't mean I don't think KOSing is "a valid playstyle", only that you KOSing "to make the game more challenging" is a bullshit reason to KOS.

 

 

 

If I remember correctly during the mod days Rocket actually gathered up statistics on how many KOS players there were in game and what thier average life expectancy was...

 

It turned out that even though there were an abundance of KOS whine threads the percentage of KOS players vs. friendly or neutral players was actaully pretty low.

 

Also it showed that their average life expextancy was alot shorter than a Friendly...

 

Why do you think that is?

 

 

Its because KOS players put themsleves in more dangerous postions. We are being shot at more than a friendly player beleive it or not...

 

 

 

 

Lemme ask you this...

 

...Have you tried another playstyle yet? Have you tried being a hero? Or did you just jump into this game, start KOSing people, and therefor you support that playstyle because it's the only one you know?

Or perhaps you tried to be friendly a couple of times, got killed, and then converted to a KOSer for your own "survival"? 

Either way, doesn't matter.. Whatever works for you. Just don't go around telling people that shooting everyone they see is "more difficult", because it's a pretty well accepted reality that it's simply not the case. Hence why your argument is "fucking stupid".. Nothing personal.

 

 

Played a hero for awhile in the mod...

 

 

I got really boring to me. The interactions with players were all the same and were very shallow...

 

To me PVP is the only true form of "interaction" as it has lasting consequences...

 

 

Everything else is just inconsequential

[Etherimp 1323]

I disagree as I have had some great drama during some shootouts that started due to KOS. I have also robbed people too which is contrary to popular belief, boring and kind of shallow...

 

Its always the same interaction... they either run, shoot or just let me handcuff them and then what? I can either torture them or just let them run off with less gear...

 

Not really that much "drama" compared to the countless battles I've had where I have lost friends or beleive it or not gained new allies after a fight is over...

 

See if you can rap your head around that concept because it is all due to KOS....

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If I remember correctly during the mod days Rocket actually gathered up statistics on how many KOS players there were in game and what thier average life expectancy was...

 

It turned out that even though there were an abundance of KOS whine threads the percentage of KOS players vs. friendly or neutral players was actaully pretty low.

 

Also it showed that their average life expextancy was alot shorter than a Friendly...

 

Why do you think that is?

 

 

Its because KOS players put themsleves in more dangerous postions. We are being shot at more than a friendly player beleive it or not...

 

 

 

 

 

Played a hero for awhile in the mod...

 

 

I got really boring to me. The interactions with players were all the same and were very shallow...

 

To me PVP is the only true form of "interaction" as it has lasting consequences...

 

 

Everything else is just inconsequential

 

 

Your life expectancy is shorter, so that makes the game more difficult?

 

That's your argument? Not very sound if you ask me.

 

Also, because you don't enjoy handcuffing people and torturing them, that means KOS is the way to go?

 

Again, not a very sound argument.

There are a lot of gray areas.

 

Was hesitating posting this within the thread, but here's an example of gray area.

 

 

1. We were prepared for combat.

2. We were looking for a player, as it was obvious the area was active

3. We were willing to talk, and tried talking to the person I saw.

4. I won't spoil the ending, but I'll say that I did what I felt I had to do in the moment.

 

Was this heroic behavior? Was it KOS? Was it Bandit behavior?

IMO, none of the above. Hence my original post: KOS/Bandit/Hero/Survivor/Friendly doesn't define any single person 100% of the time.

 

(Skip to about 5 minutes in if you want just the meat of it.)

Edited March 9, 2014 by Etherimp

[execpro22 128]

Your life expectancy is shorter, so that makes the game more difficult?

 

That's your argument? Not very sound if you ask me.

 

 

Whats not sound about it? If you have a shorter life expectancy due to your playstyle doesnt that make that playstyle more difficult? You will have to regear more than a friendly meaning you will be vulnerable more often as a new spawn...

 

 

 

 

Also, because you don't enjoy handcuffing people and torturing them, that means KOS is the way to go?

 

Again, not a very sound argument.

 

 

 

There wasn't any argument there... Thats just a personal preference.  Do I have to make a sound argument everytime I choose to wear brown gloves instead of black ones?

 

You seem to be under the impression that i think KOS is a better playstyle than say being a friendly... I beleive niether is better than the other. All i'm doing is defending the KOS playstyle when people make ignorant statements making it sound like it is somehow a lower form of playing the game than being friendly....

 

 

 

 

 

Was this heroic behavior? Was it KOS? Was it Bandit behavior?

IMO, none of the above. Hence my original post: KOS/Bandit/Hero/Survivor/Friendly doesn't define any single person 100% of the time.

 

(Skip to about 5 minutes in if you want just the meat of it.)

 

 

Agree 100%

 

I think that guy was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and really its his fault for not checking the windows first before entering like you guys did....

Edited March 9, 2014 by execpro22

[Etherimp 1323]

Whats not sound about it? If you have a shorter life expectancy due to your playstyle doesnt that make that playstyle more difficult? You will have to regear more than a friendly meaning you will be vulnerable more often as a new spawn...

 

 

 

 

 

There wasn't any argument there... Thats just a personal preference.  Do I have to make a sound argument everytime I choose to wear brown gloves instead of black ones?

 

 

 

 

 

 

Agree 100%

 

I think that guy was just in the wrong place at the wrong time and really its his fault for not checking the windows first before entering like you guys did....

 

 

Life expectancy does not equate to difficulty. I played on a PVP Mod server for a few months where I would KOS.. I would immediately run to the airfield, kill people with a baseball bat if I had to, steal all their gear, then camp and kill people and gear up along the way until I died, and then it was rinse/repeat.. My life expectancy was low, but it wasn't difficult to get geared and kill people, and my "life" didn't really mean much so there was no focus on staying alive, so it took the difficulty out of that aspect of the game. I would die several times in a session and just run back right into the action. I consider staying alive for over a month on public hive, playing on populated servers, and having dozens of friendly and unfriendly player encounters much more of a challenge.

 

Re: The video.. If he was associated with the guy I saw inside the building, then odds are he got what he had coming because he probably knew we were there.. He had his gun out and had it aimed, so it looked like he was sneaking in to try to kill us.. But, the other possibility is that he was just a random player who happened upon the building, opened the door and had no idea we were in there, in which case he was just in the wrong place at the wrong time.. but I felt justified in firing on him the second I saw him due to the circumstances. And if he were on these forums he may come and whine about how I KOS'd him, and how I was a bandit and a bad guy and he was just a friendly guy looking for some gear. Hence why KOS arguments are stupid. We do what we have to do in the moment. Some people, though, do nothing but KOS, even when they could have handled the situation differently but equally safe, and as I've stated a dozen times, I feel that robs them of some of the fun of the game.

Edited March 9, 2014 by Etherimp

[execpro22 128]

Life expectancy does not equate to difficulty. I played on a PVP Mod server for a few months where I would KOS.. I would immediately run to the airfield, kill people with a baseball bat if I had to, steal all their gear, then camp and kill people and gear up along the way until I died, and then it was rinse/repeat.. My life expectancy was low, but it wasn't difficult to get geared and kill people, and my "life" didn't really mean much so there was no focus on staying alive, so it took the difficulty out of that aspect of the game. I would die several times in a session and just run back right into the action. I consider staying alive for over a month on public hive, playing on populated servers, and having dozens of friendly and unfriendly player encounters much more of a challenge.

 

 

 

Not by itself it doesn't, but when combined with your interactions of always either being in firefights or getting shot whether you are the initiator or not I would say increases difficulty.

 

Everyday I play I'm facing the barrel of someones loaded gun... and I love it! It's him or me. That same difficulty of always being shot by bandits that people always complain about is on constantly because I initiate those contacts in the first place.....

 

Basically I am always at war with other players.

 

 

Now I'm not denying theres a challenge in being friendly, i'm just saying that bandits put themselves in dangerous sitautions with more frequency which is the challenge itself.

 

 

 

 

 Some people, though, do nothing but KOS, even when they could have handled the situation differently but equally safe, and as I've stated a dozen times, I feel that robs them of some of the fun of the game.

 

 

I can't speak for every bandit out there, but In my case I KNOW without a doubt it doesnt rob me of any fun as I have played the other side and have definately had more fun being a bandit than I ever did being a hero.....

[Forrelist 236]

The only point I'm not too sure about is where you say not to loot bodies. This one is pretty situational. If it's a full military corpse sitting in the main street in Elektro, that's a trap. If It's a guy you just shot dead and you know he was on his on you're fine.

 

I would maybe change that to "look around the nearby area, and wait a minute or two" If I just dropped a guy, I'll usually wait a good 5minutes to make sure his buddy doesn't turn up for me, I wouldn't rule looting bodies out altogether.

 

Aside from that, pretty sound list.

[Etherimp 1323]

The only point I'm not too sure about is where you say not to loot bodies. This one is pretty situational. If it's a full military corpse sitting in the main street in Elektro, that's a trap. If It's a guy you just shot dead and you know he was on his on you're fine.

 

I would maybe change that to "look around the nearby area, and wait a minute or two" If I just dropped a guy, I'll usually wait a good 5minutes to make sure his buddy doesn't turn up for me, I wouldn't rule looting bodies out altogether.

 

Aside from that, pretty sound list.

 

 

Yeah, as I said, it's very situational.. Mistake many people make though is killing someone and immediately attempting to loot the body. You never know who heard the gunshots and is coming to check it out, and often times the person you shot may have a friend. I know this from experience, as this situation has unfolded many times in teamspeak.

 

"OH! Shit! Guy just shot me."

"Where?"

"blah blah blah.. He's looting my corpse! Gogogo!"

[Onix87 7]

Very good and usefull tips! And also I agree that most of the players are jing and jang, sometimes good and sometimes evil... Nice topic!

[minime1000 78]

I disagree. The game already keeps track of most of the data needed. It's not as complex as you would think.

For an example when someone shoots a random bullet by accident into fog and it just happens to go past another guy, the game has no way of knowing if it was intentional (combat and can't log out) or accident (safe to log out).

Edited March 10, 2014 by myshl0ng

[finnpalm 312]

For an example when someone shoots a random bullet by accident into fog and it just happens to go past another guy, the game has no way of knowing if it was intentional (combat and can't log out) or accident (safe to log out).

 

Of course it can. The game will know there is fog. The game will know if the person shooting had eyes on the person who was shot at. After all, the game decides what is rendered on your screen, and it's the game that creates the fog, so the data is already there.

[minime1000 78]

Of course it can. The game will know there is fog. The game will know if the person shooting had eyes on the person who was shot at. After all, the game decides what is rendered on your screen, and it's the game that creates the fog, so the data is already there.

The game will absolutely not know if the person in real life notices the other person. The game has no way of knowing how good the person in real life is at noticing patterns, movement, hearing etc. Then comes the difference in monitors and its settings. Put more than 2 people into that situation with different graphical settings, different weather effects, etc, and you need a separate server for the game to constantly figure out if the person in real life did notice the other guy or not.

Edited March 11, 2014 by myshl0ng

[finnpalm 312]

The game will absolutely not know if the person in real life notices the other person. The game has no way of knowing how good the person in real life is at noticing patterns, movement, hearing etc. Then comes the difference in monitors and its settings. Put more than 2 people into that situation with different graphical settings, different weather effects, etc, and you need a separate server for the game to constantly figure out if the person in real life did notice the other guy or not.

 

You're wrong. Such a program can be made more intelligent than you think.

[minime1000 78]

You're wrong. Such a program can be made more intelligent than you think.

And how much will it cost when it comes to power. Not to mention it will not be 100% accurate. Bigger developers with more money and experience have not made even an anti-teamkill system that doesn't punish for accidents.

Edited March 11, 2014 by myshl0ng

[Wyrmgol 26]

OP - I agree with pretty much everything in your post.

 

The only innocents are the people who absolutely refuse to kill anyone. That may not appeal to me, but they can do as they wish.

Every play style and engagement is a matter of perspective and you are only able to gauge your own.

 

The truth is that combat is a part of the game and it's fun. the "Hero's" hunting down bandits are just as bloodthirsty.  They just get to hide behind

community accepted excuses for murdering people usually based off another player's word or happening upon a situation in game where they only

see half the story.

 

Everyone has their own "code" as you stated which is he only difference between players. The situation is always grey and only becomes a certainty

when we refuse to acknowledge the other guys perspective. 

 

Nice list of tips for new players as well.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Wyrmgol

[finnpalm 312]

And how much will it cost when it comes to power. Not to mention it will not be 100% accurate. Bigger developers with more money and experience have not made even an anti-teamkill system that doesn't punish for accidents.

 

I'm assuming you're referring to the system in WoT. Like I said, that system is never wrong, but it carries with it a certain amount of responsibility on the player. If you don't try to avoid accidents you might get tagged. But if that's the case and you don't bother to look where you're driving, just smashing into your team mates and damaging them you're just as bad as those who shoot their team mates. That system is, if anything, not catching everyone, but it's effective enough to limit TKing. It does not flag people who damage enemies by accident, unless that person "accidentally" damages people systematically. And if you systematically, accidentally shoot your friends something is wrong.

 

How much power it takes to run such a system I am not completely sure of. All I said however, was that it's doable. And the system will be effective enough to limit the problem.

 

Hell, the consequences don't even have to be death. It can be that you simply get a server message saying "You cannot log out at this time".

 

Take for example healing in the standalone as it is currently. Have you noticed that you don't heal while in combat? Even if you're max energized and hydrated? After you leave combat it takes a while before healing resumes. There's a good example of what I'm talking about.

Edited March 11, 2014 by Strawman

[Shadow-Kick 1]

Very nice tips ! Thank you.

 

You said not to carry excessive amount of food, but how can i give people i meet food if i have the minimum ? Same for medecine and ammo.

Yep i'm that kind of guy. And it's not very rewerding so far...

 

You have my beans ! Something like 4 cans at least !

[xRann 126]

Very nice tips ! Thank you.

 

You said not to carry excessive amount of food, but how can i give people i meet food if i have the minimum ? Same for medecine and ammo.

Yep i'm that kind of guy. And it's not very rewerding so far...

 

You have my beans ! Something like 4 cans at least !

Carrying anything extra is just a situational thing. So, if you dig carrying extra for others, do so. Just be aware you do become a honeypot to some people. Bend and/or break all but #20 ;p