A Little Ingame Humanity?

[kroms001 99]

Mr. Sinister,

You sir have my beans.  Beautifully written!  Agree 100% with everything you stated :)

[kroms001 99]

 

If you want to remove "KoS" or banditry you'll just have to wait for private hives, because people will always be able to kill you regardless of what header the server places in it's title. You could try 1pp servers and/or the experimental servers, I can tell you there are generally less people with the intent of just pvp. That's not to say it won't happen, you'll just find more non-hostile interactions to be more common. Many times I've ran into someone and we both size each other up, offer each other supplies, offer intel on looted and cleared areas, and head our separate ways. Much like I would assume would actually happen.

No way do I want to remove the KoS/Banditry - that isn't what I am saying.  I gave you some beans because you made a bunch of good points.  I just tried out a high population experimental server because I watched a few youtube videos and it looked like people were having a blast.  It took me 3 attempts to enter Elektro, I was held up on the road (wearing absolutely nothing but shoes), and was going to be handcuffed/poisoned and I ran away and they shot me.  I was also shot in the back (wearing nothing but shoes) running through the forest trying to get around KoS players.  The thing about it is, these people are just killing because they can - no other reason.  Usually, the person behind the keyboard is a child about 10-12 commanding you to get on your knees so they can cuff you and force feed you poison... or, they just plain see you trying to get somewhere and snipe you as a new spawn.  It is stupid, and ridiculous.  Maybe there does need to be "protection" from armed players until bambi's get weapons - I don't know what the solution is; but these high pitched squeaky voiced children are ruining the game for a lot of us adults.

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

Nail/head

/thread

[Valadain 270]

No way do I want to remove the KoS/Banditry - that isn't what I am saying.  I gave you some beans because you made a bunch of good points.  I just tried out a high population experimental server because I watched a few youtube videos and it looked like people were having a blast.  It took me 3 attempts to enter Elektro, I was held up on the road (wearing absolutely nothing but shoes), and was going to be handcuffed/poisoned and I ran away and they shot me.  I was also shot in the back (wearing nothing but shoes) running through the forest trying to get around KoS players.  The thing about it is, these people are just killing because they can - no other reason.  Usually, the person behind the keyboard is a child about 10-12 commanding you to get on your knees so they can cuff you and force feed you poison... or, they just plain see you trying to get somewhere and snipe you as a new spawn.  It is stupid, and ridiculous.  Maybe there does need to be "protection" from armed players until bambi's get weapons - I don't know what the solution is; but these high pitched squeaky voiced children are ruining the game for a lot of us adults.

 

First, I do empathize with you, so please don't take this harshly as it isn't intended. Why are you on the road? Why are you getting caught? Why aren't you assessing your surroundings and checking for dangers before you run into town? Why are you going to Elektro with no protection rather than any number of smaller areas to get a good fighting chance before you head to a dangerous place?

 

If you are getting jumped at your spawn point, I definitely feel for you, that sucks. I think something should be done about that. There is no fighting chance there. If you've gotten away from your spawn point though, you can't just leisurely stroll around. You need to watch out for yourself.

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

And just to nail the coffin shut on any doubts about KoS in the final game, check this video out...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tjzX1LSy_TY#t=160
 
This is on experimental now, with the zombie numbers quite low. Now imagine what it would be like with several thousand zombies in Chernarus rather than the current several hundred and that the zombie AI/glitches will have been sorted as well as the loot/weapons/ammo spawning being balanced. To even suggest that KoS'ing will be the problem it is now is just plain daft. Furthermore, when the game is complete there will be plenty more things to do to entertain oneself than mindlessly killing people. Like, err, getting a vehicle running or making a base somewhere in the woods or, you know, just stayin' alive.

Life goin' nowhere. Somebody help me.

Somebody help me, yeah.

 

*dances*

[Window Licker 504]

I dont think id put it down to human nature myself, id put it more down to "gaming nature". For years people have gathered on certain servers in 100s of games with there friends, to fight other people and there friends. Because the only real threat has been other people. The question is how do the devs make dayz's largest threat be not the players. I would defiantly (upon completion of the game) be aiming to make the zombies the largest threat for one with the enviroment number two, other people last. A far higher number of zombies for one, headshots only to kill them, you shoot, expect to attract half a citys worth of them, in the citys. So on and so forth, less ammo, no more guns added (perhaps remove the M4 and add the AK instead because of where the game is based).  Then with the hunting and camp development more to do there for people. I want to see very few people fighting off thousands of zombies from their camp after a horde comes across them and all hell breaks loose. Sure we will always get people who will shoot and loot, but if the consequences of shooting anyone else at least in a town/city etc were that half of the zombie population would be on there heads in very little time it would put alot off for a start. Its a tough one to fix, the gamers a-typical mindset, but if any game has the chance to be somthing better and be truly a next generation game of zombie horror survival. Dayz is it, lets hope the devs will aim for a new audience, so we wont get lumbered with yet another game of very little difference from everything else out there. It rests in there hands. 

 

Nailed it, This is what the long term plan for DayZ is although M4's are here to stay they will be so scattered and rare, even server hopping won't be a valid way of acquiring them from what I understand, the spawn rate for gun's currently is so high because there is a lack of other weaponry and they are still in the process of balancing all the weapons, I watched a Dev blog last night where they showed off the bow and arrow, as well as basics of the physic's engine's (think spears and throwing axe's)

 

Unfortunately any "system" put in place to alter the way player's play will have little to no effect in the game, making the environment so harsh and difficult that banding together and helping will be the far easier way to go, will reduce the desire to KoS also it was mentioned that players would develop skill when repeatedly preforming the same/related task's aka working on an engine or providing medical assistance this experience will be wiped on death. So don't want to lose your skill stay out of a firefight.

 

While the measures will never completely remove the KoS element the requirement to co-operate and increasing death penalty's will be a lot more effective then any system, but there will still be people who don't care and keep playing like this.

[xRann 126]

I dont think id put it down to human nature myself, id put it more down to "gaming nature". For years people have gathered on certain servers in 100s of games with there friends, to fight other people and there friends. Because the only real threat has been other people. The question is how do the devs make dayz's largest threat be not the players. I would defiantly (upon completion of the game) be aiming to make the zombies the largest threat for one with the enviroment number two, other people last. A far higher number of zombies for one, headshots only to kill them, you shoot, expect to attract half a citys worth of them, in the citys. So on and so forth, less ammo, no more guns added (perhaps remove the M4 and add the AK instead because of where the game is based).  Then with the hunting and camp development more to do there for people. I want to see very few people fighting off thousands of zombies from their camp after a horde comes across them and all hell breaks loose. Sure we will always get people who will shoot and loot, but if the consequences of shooting anyone else at least in a town/city etc were that half of the zombie population would be on there heads in very little time it would put alot off for a start. Its a tough one to fix, the gamers a-typical mindset, but if any game has the chance to be somthing better and be truly a next generation game of zombie horror survival. Dayz is it, lets hope the devs will aim for a new audience, so we wont get lumbered with yet another game of very little difference from everything else out there. It rests in there hands. 

 

Agreed, but the environment should be number one, people forget how easily simple exposure to the elements can be lethal. Most are very complacent. Cold or rainy? They go inside. Thirsty? Grab a drink from the fridge, or heaven forbid the faucet. Hungry?..You get my point? Left without any modern amenity the things most people take for granted are quite taxing.

 

With regards to zombies requiring a headshot. They aren't Romero esque zombies but are infected people, and as such still need to succumb to death similarly to non-infected. Even given that, if the servers are able to maintain a much higher zombie population they will pose a serious threat and won't be able to be taken so lightly with careless disregard.

 

No way do I want to remove the KoS/Banditry - that isn't what I am saying.  I gave you some beans because you made a bunch of good points.  I just tried out a high population experimental server because I watched a few youtube videos and it looked like people were having a blast.  It took me 3 attempts to enter Elektro, I was held up on the road (wearing absolutely nothing but shoes), and was going to be handcuffed/poisoned and I ran away and they shot me.  I was also shot in the back (wearing nothing but shoes) running through the forest trying to get around KoS players.  The thing about it is, these people are just killing because they can - no other reason.  Usually, the person behind the keyboard is a child about 10-12 commanding you to get on your knees so they can cuff you and force feed you poison... or, they just plain see you trying to get somewhere and snipe you as a new spawn.  It is stupid, and ridiculous.  Maybe there does need to be "protection" from armed players until bambi's get weapons - I don't know what the solution is; but these high pitched squeaky voiced children are ruining the game for a lot of us adults.

 

They may be killing because you, simply being in their area, are a threat. I've ended a few people simply because they posed a threat and I simply could not risk turning my back on them. Not saying that is the case, but if you've been put in that position you know what I mean. But, much the same as Valadain said and I'll add that as a freshspawn I have zero regard for my own personal safety until I've cleared the coast or have gathered a weapon along with food and water. Until that time, balls out, no care in the world till I have something worth living for. Day zero struggles are always a blitz, like sea turtles racing into the ocean.

 

No, it isn't. And this particular dead horse needs to stop finding its way into other suggestion threads. It stinks.

You clearly haven't experienced it or seen the plethora of videos taking advantage cover and then popping up/out and dealing death. It happens. A lot. Any claim that it doesn't promote the tactical advantage of being able to see above and around cover in relative security is just nonsense.

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

You clearly haven't experienced it or seen the plethora of videos taking advantage cover and then popping up/out and dealing death. It happens. A lot. Any claim that it doesn't promote the tactical advantage of being able to see above and around cover in relative security is just nonsense.

Wolfeguard's point isn't that 3PP makes people kill. 3PP does not, it just give players an advantage over the person they're looking at when the view is exploited. Whether that person shoots or not when they move from behind cover has got nothing to do with the view.

[kroms001 99]

First, I do empathize with you, so please don't take this harshly as it isn't intended. Why are you on the road? Why are you getting caught? Why aren't you assessing your surroundings and checking for dangers before you run into town? Why are you going to Elektro with no protection rather than any number of smaller areas to get a good fighting chance before you head to a dangerous place?

 

If you are getting jumped at your spawn point, I definitely feel for you, that sucks. I think something should be done about that. There is no fighting chance there. If you've gotten away from your spawn point though, you can't just leisurely stroll around. You need to watch out for yourself.

Well, yeah - there was a lot of people getting cut down at spawn points, including myself and we were trying to have a little fun with it to be honest.  In experimental mode, a lot of the time you will get shot for wearing pants in Electro.  And you are right; we shouldn't have been anywhere near the road at all (and under normal alpha I hardly ever go near any roads)  - but you see we were pilgrims on our "tribulation mission" to visit the almighty temple of the No Pants God(yes, actually I am kind of serious LOL). So; no - those characters who got killed didn't matter at all.  What kind of sucks tho is that that there are a lot of people picking on fresh spawns.  Even if people (like me) wanted to have a little fun with the game; like taking all of your clothes off and running to Electro - you can't... it was kind of a bummer.  I think the only think to do in experimental servers atm is KoS or troll other players... which really doesn't help development at all, which is why I switched back to regular alpha.  The guy in my avi with the sks still exists, and I have kept him alive for about 5 days now (in regular Alpha servers).  I know he will eventually get killed, looted and forgotten about - and I can deal with that. 

 

Anyhow - the only reason we were running on the road in our undies was to have a little fun, and some young children couldn't deal with that.  Here is the funny thing: there were three of us; all killed by the same kiddies, new spawned and running on the road.  We decided to run to Elektro naked.  ;) hah.

[Valadain 270]

Well, yeah - there was a lot of people getting cut down at spawn points, including myself and we were trying to have a little fun with it to be honest.  In experimental mode, a lot of the time you will get shot for wearing pants in Electro.  And you are right; we shouldn't have been anywhere near the road at all (and under normal alpha I hardly ever go near any roads)  - but you see we were pilgrims on our "tribulation mission" to visit the almighty temple of the No Pants God(yes, actually I am kind of serious LOL). So; no - those characters who got killed didn't matter at all.  What kind of sucks tho is that that there are a lot of people picking on fresh spawns.  Even if people (like me) wanted to have a little fun with the game; like taking all of your clothes off and running to Electro - you can't... it was kind of a bummer.  I think the only think to do in experimental servers atm is KoS or troll other players... which really doesn't help development at all, which is why I switched back to regular alpha.  The guy in my avi with the sks still exists, and I have kept him alive for about 5 days now (in regular Alpha servers).  I know he will eventually get killed, looted and forgotten about - and I can deal with that. 

 

Anyhow - the only reason we were running on the road in our undies was to have a little fun, and some young children couldn't deal with that.  Here is the funny thing: there were three of us; all killed by the same kiddies, new spawned and running on the road.  We decided to run to Elektro naked.  ;) hah.

 

Yeah, that is annoying. If you've watched the Morgan Freeman videos on youtube, you can see how people respond to others trying to mess around and bring some humor to the game. Basically, torture and death.

 

But I suspect that will die down a bit after more features come in and other games come out. It won't die out entirely, so you'll either need to incorporate the death into your planning or get some people involved that are armed to deter would-be killers.

[xRann 126]

Wolfeguard's point isn't that 3PP makes people kill. 3PP does not, it just give players an advantage over the person they're looking at when the view is exploited. Whether that person shoots or not when they move from behind cover has got nothing to do with the view.

The benefit gained does give many people reason to kill. I'm not talking about regular use of 3pp, while I don't enjoy it many do, but the inherent abuse that people do use to simply rain hell while they giggle and laugh with their buddies from relative safety. So, no 3pp does make people kill but it does attract indiscriminate killers.

 

*I'm not condemning 3pp, it's just something you have to deal with when 3pp is enabled.

Edited February 27, 2014 by xRann

[kroms001 99]

Yeah, that is annoying. If you've watched the Morgan Freeman videos on youtube, you can see how people respond to others trying to mess around and bring some humor to the game. Basically, torture and death.

 

But I suspect that will die down a bit after more features come in and other games come out. It won't die out entirely, so you'll either need to incorporate the death into your planning or get some people involved that are armed to deter would-be killers.

*Rubs hands together* sooo a No Pants Apocalyptic cult security force?!? I LOVE IT!!!! :D See, part of being in the cult of the god of No Pants is that you have to run down the road naked, hungry and thirsty until you get to the Temple (church) in Elektro to show your penance - and death shall usually show its head.  I only mess around like that on the experimental servers.  What those squeakers did teach me is: in the regular Alpha - I am not a friendly to them and will KoS.

I know that aspect won't die down and some people can't take a joke - but 10-14 year old kids just sitting on a hill top popping off new spawns is a pretty lame way to play a game.  I do hope they put some kind of humanizing element in this game though, because with out it - the only challenges are to watch out for people, and then the game gets really lonely - especially wandering around by yourself.  I mean, if the challenge is to avoid people, kill zombies and keep yourself hydrated and fed - I have already won several times over.

[Chaingunfighter 917]

I dont think id put it down to human nature myself, id put it more down to "gaming nature". For years people have gathered on certain servers in 100s of games with there friends, to fight other people and there friends. Because the only real threat has been other people. The question is how do the devs make dayz's largest threat be not the players. I would defiantly (upon completion of the game) be aiming to make the zombies the largest threat for one with the enviroment number two, other people last. A far higher number of zombies for one, headshots only to kill them, you shoot, expect to attract half a citys worth of them, in the citys. So on and so forth, less ammo, no more guns added (perhaps remove the M4 and add the AK instead because of where the game is based).  Then with the hunting and camp development more to do there for people. I want to see very few people fighting off thousands of zombies from their camp after a horde comes across them and all hell breaks loose. Sure we will always get people who will shoot and loot, but if the consequences of shooting anyone else at least in a town/city etc were that half of the zombie population would be on there heads in very little time it would put alot off for a start. Its a tough one to fix, the gamers a-typical mindset, but if any game has the chance to be somthing better and be truly a next generation game of zombie horror survival. Dayz is it, lets hope the devs will aim for a new audience, so we wont get lumbered with yet another game of very little difference from everything else out there. It rests in there hands. 

I can agree with having more zombies, but "headshots only" breaks the canon in that the zombies in DayZ are actually infected, not undead. Additionally, attracting hundreds of zombies with one gunshot may be overkill and, coupled with a headshot requirement they would be physically impossible to fight with their strafe-running and physics-breaking AI.

Can guarantee there will be more guns in the future, and I find it highly unlikely they're going to take out the M4A1 completely (Yes, make it rarer, but no point in getting rid of it) 

 

And this still wouldn't stop someone who camped on top of a roof with only one ladder access, as they could easily kill every zombie who comes up and still snipe as they please.

[Mr Sinister 167]

Mr. Sinister,

You sir have my beans.  Beautifully written!  Agree 100% with everything you stated :)

Right back at you too. Ive seen many of your posts my friend and noticed ive recived your beans to other comments ive made here. Once this game gets closer to completion and if its looking how we both so obviously mutually want it to be. I think we should defiantly look one another up. At the moment its just me and my partner really who run from place to place on the quiet servers just exploring and getting more used to the map. She has died a few times as have i, but hasnt been for a good while now, because we are getting used to what to look out for with other players. From some of your comments ive seen it would make complete sense for the like minded to band together upon nearer completion you are certainly one of a few ive seen posting that i would definatly will be giving a shout to in the coming time ahead. Fingers crossed for the future of this game, and hope to see you "out there" krom. Keep your head low my friend. All the best from the UK. 

[brazorf 46]

coupled with a headshot requirement they would be physically impossible to fight with their strafe-running and physics-breaking AI.

 

 

Amen.

Ok for "hundreds" of them, but absolutely not before they get their behaviours fixed

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

Headshot only requirement isn't likely to happen, the zombies in DayZ are infected humans (and therefore still alive) rather than risen-from-the-dead mobile maggot factories. Ergo, they're just as susceptible to damage and trauma as anyone else.

[daisho 74]

You're premise is flawed.  When you presuppose that IRL: "...people would shoot each other, some out of spite, out of rage or whatever - but not to the extent that they do in DayZ," you couldn't be more wrong.  

 

When resources are tight and people are desperate they will do whatever it takes to survive.  They will move to the dark side of human behavior farther, faster, and more often than players do in DayZ.  DayZ is a game...if people are really starving or a really in fear for their lives they will react much more intensely than what you find in a game.  

 

All that being said, people don't really need the threat of starvation and death to abandoned any sense of human decency.  If the systems of consequence are removed from their society they will murder, loot, and pillage with reckless abandon.  I refer you to New Orleans in the days following Hurricane Katrina...wanton theft, property destruction, and lawlessness because the good citizens knew there was no police force or legal system in place to stop them.  Once the consequences were gone, so went their reluctance to break the law.

 

So no, DayZ isn't an excessive representation of the dark side of humanity...in fact the opposite is true...it UNDER-represents how selfish, vicious, and murderous humans will actually be when times are desperate and there are no systems of consequence to deter them.  

 

 

I'm with OP and as said in another thread: in a RL situation similar to the the given setting most people would NOT KoS everyone they come across.

In DayZ you basically can run rampage with some kind of one-man-army-attitude without any consequences really, if you see it realistic, you would have to team up and cooperate with people to be able to survive.

 

Given the fact that you in RL most likely would not be able to do everything on your own like you are able to do in DayZ .

For example in RL I would most likely not even be able to maintain or shoot a gun properly, neither would I be able to heal wounds properly  as it would take WAY more than just dirty bandages to stop a bleeding, if you do that in RL you'll get an infection and at some point would be so weak that you wouldn't be able to do anything else than just lie somewhere and wait for your death.

 

In RL, despite the fact that some people for sure would go lonewolfing caring for nothing else than themselves, people would be forced to team up as everyone would come from different jobs and could provide some benefits for the group.

 

There would be people with some kind of medical training to take care of everyone's health, there would be people with some kind of military training to defend the group, there would be hunters that would have knowledge on how to hunt and get food for the group, there would be engineers that would take care or repairing stuff and/ or creating new equipment....and there would be some kind of markets where people would trade stuff, maybe a weapon for some food, or meds for some ammo and sometimes someone else would have to guard you as at some point your body just would demand some sleep... and so on, I think you get the concept.

 

The situation given in DayZ we have atm is that every player is a walking cyclopedia of all kind of life-hacks and all wisdom of all humanity of any kind.

 

We're just normal people after the apocalype but everyone of us seems to be blessed with full training in medicine, military, engineering, hunting and generally surviving in the wildness (as there s no wild animals at all and you can just run from zombies as they are not real thread) and on top of that we got more sporting skills than any competitive athlete ever, not to mention we don't have to sleep and can take care of ourselves 24/7 ...so we kill everyone on sight as we don't need other people anyways and if shit hits the fan for us and there is one of these rare occasions when there is an actual thread or a lack of supplies we just magically warp to a parallel universe where we just keep going like we're used to and will find all the stuff we need.

 

Speaking of realism:

In a real world setting you actually WOULD be forced to cooperate with at least a small group of people in order to survive as running alone would most likely lead to nothing else than death.

 

/edit: typos

Edited March 3, 2014 by daisho

[Bryst 0]

I would say the biggest issue with KOS is there is literally NO repercussions. Unlike other multiplayer games, where there are kill alerts and nameplates, players cant see when someone is griefing and find them. And this is due to the realism of the game, however, I think the DEV team needs to decide where they draw the line with realism. On one hand no nameplates or kill announcements makes the player feel secluded and alone and adds to the suspense. But at the same time I feel its going to detour alot of casual gamers.

 

Also another thing to take into account is how weak and few zombies are. At the moment there is no real PvE in the game so of coarse people turn to PvP. I hope to see stuff like infected dogs and wildlife appear. Things that WILL require more then a bonk on the head from an axe to kill.

 

I personally try not to KOS. Its just no fun for me. I enjoy the human interaction. That said, I have gotten into a TON of firefights due to other players trying to kill myself and my friends. And it has already gotten annoying. We even try to talk to them and they just dont even respond. Its like fighting robots. In the end almost everyone always dies besides one person and it just ends up being a loss for everyone.

 

 

[Valadain 270]

I would say the biggest issue with KOS is there is literally NO repercussions. Unlike other multiplayer games, where there are kill alerts and nameplates, players cant see when someone is griefing and find them. And this is due to the realism of the game, however, I think the DEV team needs to decide where they draw the line with realism. On one hand no nameplates or kill announcements makes the player feel secluded and alone and adds to the suspense. But at the same time I feel its going to detour alot of casual gamers.

 

Also another thing to take into account is how weak and few zombies are. At the moment there is no real PvE in the game so of coarse people turn to PvP. I hope to see stuff like infected dogs and wildlife appear. Things that WILL require more then a bonk on the head from an axe to kill.

 

I personally try not to KOS. Its just no fun for me. I enjoy the human interaction. That said, I have gotten into a TON of firefights due to other players trying to kill myself and my friends. And it has already gotten annoying. We even try to talk to them and they just dont even respond. Its like fighting robots. In the end almost everyone always dies besides one person and it just ends up being a loss for everyone.

 

It isn't really "griefing". There shouldn't really be any mechanic-based repercussions either. The real problem is just that you can't really identify a player specifically. If there were a better way to recognize a character, you could pass the word around. Unfortunately, the character models aren't there yet and the random changes in models on respawn makes it even more difficult.

[agouti 105]

How about requiring the game to be 18+? If you're caught and underage, instaban until you're 18. How will people know you're underage? Squeaky voices.

[daisho 74]

How about requiring the game to be 18+? If you're caught and underage, instaban until you're 18. How will people know you're underage? Squeaky voices.

 

Every single CoD-game is 18+ and most people playing it seem to be between 8 and 16, also: this is not something the Devs should care about it's the shops that sell games to underage kids that don't fit the requirement and the grandparents that buy this stuff for their grandchildren for christmas without even knowing what they actually are buying.

I really would appreciate if people would enforce age-restrictions when it comes for gaming, not only it is annoying to have internet-tough-kids shout slurs with their squeaky voices into the microphone but also: some games just are not meant to get played by kids due to their content. But that's a whole different discussion.

Edited March 7, 2014 by daisho

[SteenRNS 35]

Im all for 10 times more zombies and hordes etc. Im against headshots only.

Give them more health.

They`re not zombies ,they are infected people.

Give them as much health as any other human. Right now the M4 can kill zombies in one shot ,but not survivors?

They should at least require the same amount of shots.

(Not saying survivors should die from 1 m4 shot though)