Survival is not just about looting canned food and ak47s

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Because the amount of posts on this forum trying to make this an anti-game are getting ridiculous?

But that's the announced goal of Rocket "the man" himself!

[razguul@gmail.com 80]

But that's the announced goal of Rocket "the man" himself!

 

For the mod perhaps, there is no such statement about the SA on official channels.

[Whyherro123 2283]

Oh god, how much I do not want to play a revolutionary war simulator... Why even use the Arma engine if we throw out modern guns? Ugh.... So much ugh...

 

Blackpowder firearms, whether flintlock or caplock mechanisms, ARE  the projected levels of weapons technology that the Western world would fall back to in case of a total societal collapse, which Day Z is purporting to represent.

Do you know how much effort and science goes into make modern firearms? What sort of steel production is needed for barrels, what chemicals/materials are needed to make the breech gas-tight, to make smokeless powder, to make primers for metallic cartridges? In a long-term survival situation, modern smokeless powder firearms are commonly known among survivalists to be completely unsustainable. Even reloading spent shells is unsustainable, as you can only reload brass so many times, and where would you get the powder? You can only store smokeless powder for so long before it degrades....

I recently made .45 caplock rifled musket in my garage from a kit bought online, along with the necessary caps (paper soaked in fulminate of mercury), black powder, and lead Minie ball ammunition. Such a rifle is capable of making accurate shots from up to 300 yards away, and destroying anything the bullet impacts. http://civilwartalk.com/threads/bone-damage-from-a-minie-ball.84937/ Since the rifle is chambered in .45, with a little work, I can use literally the same ammunition in my .44 Colt 1861 Navy revolver.  That gives me an accurate, long range weapon suitable for hunting or self-defense, alongside a powerful 6-shot handgun for up-close-and-personal combat. Better yet, I can make literally everything I need to fire both weapons, from stuff that I can find pretty much in any house in most countries.

Don't discount "the old stuff". They knew what they were doing.

[Whyherro123 2283]

 

 

 

Yeah, well...actually manufacturiong a modern firearm (as you can do it in Rust, which, tbh, was one of the things that annoyed the hell out of me) should just not be possible, you mentioned some good reasons.

But selfmade blackpwder-flintlock gun...sure :) But why should you when you can get a Bow that is silent, fires faster and is as deadly... ;) But well, crafting is crafting...hm...

 

I am rather against the crafting of bows because they are rather more difficult to craft in real life than many people think. There is a reason medieval bowyers (people who crafted bows and arrows), were such highly paid and respected craftsmen. Bows, at least a bow that will shoot accurately and with enough power to be worthwhile making, take a long time to make, require a certain degree of precision and know-how, and require a lot of training in order to use with any degree of effectiveness at any distance.

 

Case in point, I recently made a self-bow (a specific style of bow). It took me over a year and half before the bow was completed, from start to finish, and I was working on the  project diligently. After the bow was finished, I switched over to black powder : P

[Duenan 226]

There needs to be bow and arrow and craftable spears and clubs in this game..

 

I can't WAIT for bow and arrow

[Martmital 436]

I am rather against the crafting of bows because they are rather more difficult to craft in real life than many people think. There is a reason medieval bowyers (people who crafted bows and arrows), were such highly paid and respected craftsmen. Bows, at least a bow that will shoot accurately and with enough power to be worthwhile making, take a long time to make, require a certain degree of precision and know-how, and require a lot of training in order to use with any degree of effectiveness at any distance.

 

Case in point, I recently made a self-bow (a specific style of bow). It took me over a year and half before the bow was completed, from start to finish, and I was working on the  project diligently. After the bow was finished, I switched over to black powder : P

 

People have been making bows for thousands of years...  it really aint as hard as you think.  Used to fuck about in the woods all the time with home made bow and arrows.

[Whyherro123 2283]

People have been making bows for thousands of years...  it really aint as hard as you think.  Used to fuck about in the woods all the time with home made bow and arrows.

Yes, they have. And they all took a lot of knowledge to properly make. 

I am not saying that it isn't possible to make a bow and arrow. I am just saying that it isn't as simple as "find stick, attach string, PROFIT", as some people apparently think it is. A proper bow, one that can be expected to perform in the field (that is, make accurate shots with power and precision) takes a lot longer to make.

[Martmital 436]

Yes, they have. And they all took a lot of knowledge to properly make. 

I am not saying that it isn't possible to make a bow and arrow. I am just saying that it isn't as simple as "find stick, attach string, PROFIT", as some people apparently think it is. A proper bow, one that can be expected to perform in the field (that is, make accurate shots with power and precision) takes a lot longer to make.

 

 

The bow is the easiest thing to make, it really is as simple as 'find stick, attach string', the hard part is crafting arrows that will actually fly through the air...

[Rudette 435]

I wish hunger was more of a threat. I remember almost starving to death once. That sense of urgency. It was thrilling while it lasted, fleeting as it may have been.

I hope hunting brings some kind of leather/fur crafting with it. If people start making little shanty towns I could work out a deal. Trading skins, fur, leather, or meat for ammo or other essentials I didn't want to risk scavenging in zombie invested cities for. Though this is speculation set far far down the line in development.

It all really comes down to risk management. I think any good survival game, at it's core, should be all about risk management. That's where the excitement and/or meticulous plotting comes in.
Disease, hunger, thirst, the weather, hypothermia, wet, cold, ect ---- These things shouldn't be minor hindrances, annoying at best simply shrugged away with simple solutions. No. They should be ever present, foreboding, always lingering over head. They should be stressful. And don't forget the Zeds. They need to be a communal threat, one big enough that people will feel they have a common enemy between themselves and their scavenging.

Different ways of achieving your goals, all with associated risks, so that people may even feel the need to trade and barter with each other. Community really feels like community when there is a basic economy behind it. Your risk for mine, my loot for yours. Of course, negotiations will always be tense, getting killed, robbed, KoS'd, ect. will always be yet another risk.

I never really want to feel "safe" I want the game to be Rogue-Like in levels of difficulty, constantly out to devour me. Always stressful, always something to manage and worry about.


Thats what I want. >.> DayZ: The Roguelike

Edited February 20, 2014 by Rudette

[Duenan 226]

They just have to think about making every possible thing a threat.

 

Even random things like this: Run through a construction site and you get a message. You just stepped on a nail. Now you have to limp.

 

A couple hours go by and you get tetnus and can hardly move. Then you die.

 

All water sources are contaminated and you need to boil/ filter your water.

 

You die of exposure running around in the woods when if rains.

 

You laydown on a hill to snipe- You get poison ivy and it slows your travel speed.

 

All these things would turn this game into hell on earth and make it a real challenge

[Whyherro123 2283]

The bow is the easiest thing to make, it really is as simple as 'find stick, attach string', the hard part is crafting arrows that will actually fly through the air...

No, it really isn't. The bow you made was not very good, I guess. Did you try hunting with it? Take game larger than a rabbit or a squirrel?

[Valadain 270]

Blackpowder firearms, whether flintlock or caplock mechanisms, ARE  the projected levels of weapons technology that the Western world would fall back to in case of a total societal collapse, which Day Z is purporting to represent.

Do you know how much effort and science goes into make modern firearms? What sort of steel production is needed for barrels, what chemicals/materials are needed to make the breech gas-tight, to make smokeless powder, to make primers for metallic cartridges? In a long-term survival situation, modern smokeless powder firearms are commonly known among survivalists to be completely unsustainable. Even reloading spent shells is unsustainable, as you can only reload brass so many times, and where would you get the powder? You can only store smokeless powder for so long before it degrades....

I recently made .45 caplock rifled musket in my garage from a kit bought online, along with the necessary caps (paper soaked in fulminate of mercury), black powder, and lead Minie ball ammunition. Such a rifle is capable of making accurate shots from up to 300 yards away, and destroying anything the bullet impacts. http://civilwartalk.com/threads/bone-damage-from-a-minie-ball.84937/ Since the rifle is chambered in .45, with a little work, I can use literally the same ammunition in my .44 Colt 1861 Navy revolver.  That gives me an accurate, long range weapon suitable for hunting or self-defense, alongside a powerful 6-shot handgun for up-close-and-personal combat. Better yet, I can make literally everything I need to fire both weapons, from stuff that I can find pretty much in any house in most countries.

Don't discount "the old stuff". They knew what they were doing.

 

I'm not discounting it, but you made yours from a kit. Making one from scratch would take some things that aren't that easy to do. And it isn't like they would be sitting around. Modern guns would be all over the place.

 

Not to mention the entire lack of fun that would be having to fight only with muskets. I won't complain if they are added as an option, but I just doubt anyone would take that option over any other gun.

[krebsy 11]

Looking at this I'd say that there would need to be a much higher distribution of loot when the server comes up but a much longer time between refreshes etc.  Potentially you would then get people racing for guns and ammo but the smarter people would be digging in, hiding and collecting all the food together with a few basic weapons to use just in case.  Gun bunnies run around wiping each other out or hunting for the hoardersbut in the end, how well can you shoot if you're suffereing from critical hunger.  you can't eat bullets no matter what pop-culture says ;).

 

  As we have a shipwreck on the coast, I'd love to see a mass scramble for resources if a few rogue cargo containers were to wash up on the shore in random places every now and again.  :).

 

K.

[hypergolem 39]

Loot should not respawn all together. It should spawn randomly and rarely. This way you are forced to move to different places and search for the loot. Not just wait for the next server restart.

[Franchi (DayZ) 146]

 

 

As for guns, I would like to stay away from the manufacture of "modern" firearms, not because it isn't possible, but because of the sheer logistics involved, mostly with primers and smokeless powders. This might be personal bias, but I would like to see more black powder weaponry in the game, maybe even giving the ability to make your own (which you can, so long as you research the pressures exhibited by black powder, you can make a musket out of certain types of steel pipe) Hell, have those same clans use water power to provide motive force for metal lathes, in order to drill out bores for muskets, pistols, and eventually rifles. All of those firearms where made by hand on the US frontier, and are eminently capable of killing a something dead.

 

I, personally, would like to have the technology in-game revert to something mid 18th century, which is where Western tech would fall back to in the case of a total societal collapse. Flintlocks, farms, and hand to hand combat, though I am not sure how agriculture would work in-game.... 

I seriously doubt that tech would be rolled back much, by the time we run out of the ammunition we have we would have the lathes (and inevitable mills, broachers and tracers you find near that many large lathes) in Berizino, Vybor and Grishino up and running, either via electricity or via belts connected to wind turbines, water wheels, steam engines or to the rear wheel of a truck or the PTO drive of a tractor or via generators or generators powered in such a fashion. Manufacturing modern cases would be the hardest part post apocalypse, there are not many places they are made currently (closest place to me is about 300 miles) and the process is far from simple, the primers and the powder however is simple if a bit difficult dangerous and time consuming (before you ask yes you can make a explosive sutible for primers at home). However straight walled rimed cases can be made with relative ease, things like the 45-70 and 45LC.

 

With the aforementioned lathes and assorted machining equipment a skilled and knowledgeable individual could build a small munitions plant capable of stamping new cases, the problems would be getting brass of sufficient quality and heating the brass for the annealing process so its more likley they would stamp one shell at a time and anneal in batches in some sort of wood burning forge. While not insurmountable problems they would probably be enough to keep people reloading rather than manufacturing new cases, a shouldered rifle case can typically be reloaded at least 4 times, hearing of 10-12 is not uncommon. straight walled cases (45 ACP, 9mm 40SW, 45LC etc) can be reloaded for a LONG time, at least 10-12, commonly many more times.

 

Some other food for thought, given the Dayz plagues kill/infection rate we would be DROWNING in guns and ammo, even if they get the player count up to 100 per map, that will still be better than a 85% kill rate, meaning there's far fewer people competing over the guns/ammo and other resources.

 

Why exactly do you think that tech would revert back to the 1800s? Because some Hollywood morons thought that would happen in the case of the abominably bad show Revolution?

 

I can and have made effective bows, I can make guns, making effective guns is actually easier. The materials are easier to find, and the skill set for making a simple improvised gun is more common than that required to make a bow capable of killing a human size animal.

 

More food for thought, and improvised SMG made with a little know-how and hand tools from things you would find in your average hardware store. The welding could easily be done with one of the little blue propane bottles and a torch attachment, or with a couple of car batteries and some jumper cables, or a similar design that requires no welding can be substituted.

 

Just becasue you cannot do these things doesn't mean those of us who can will oblige your 18th century fantasy by keeling over dead..

Edited February 21, 2014 by Franchi

[Whyherro123 2283]

Firstly, I am trained in Bushcraft, Emergency management, and Emergency Mitigation, and the idea that muzzleloaders will be used after the collapse of society is pretty much an educated guess  by me and my colleagues, based on the fact that no society-shattering event has occurred yet, one that has worldwide implications. There have been localized disasters, yes, but relief and other aid from outside unaffected areas maintained relative order, and logistical supply lines outside the area remained relatively unaffected.

 

The advantages of muzzleloading blackpowder firearms are primarily long-term (month/years) in focus, and are primarily associated with the ease of logistics that accompany the class of firearm. Few moving parts, so no mechanical failures. As long as the weapon is properly cleaned, you tend to not have jamming issues. You can make all of the propellant and ammunition you need in the field, so you are not tied to a supply line, whether an international one or a factory nearby. The only real disadvantages a blackpowder muzzleloader has when compared to a modern cased firearm is the lack of relative range and accuracy, which, in a real situation, is not all that big of a deal.

 

Once a machining factory gets up and running, then pretty much by definition, society has started to rebuild itself, as such a factory would require many resources (power, stock, materials for powder, primers, etc, as well as  a stable source of labor). Up until then, however, who would be producing new cartidges? Powder for propellant? New primers? Black powder muzzleloaders excel in the "in-between" period, from when all the modern cartridges are used up, and when new cartridges can be successfully produced.

[Franchi (DayZ) 146]

Firstly, I am trained in Bushcraft, Emergency management, and Emergency Mitigation, and the idea that muzzleloaders will be used after the collapse of society is pretty much an educated guess  by me and my colleagues, based on the fact that no society-shattering event has occurred yet, one that has worldwide implications. There have been localized disasters, yes, but relief and other aid from outside unaffected areas maintained relative order, and logistical supply lines outside the area remained relatively unaffected.

 

The advantages of muzzleloading blackpowder firearms are primarily long-term (month/years) in focus, and are primarily associated with the ease of logistics that accompany the class of firearm. Few moving parts, so no mechanical failures. As long as the weapon is properly cleaned, you tend to not have jamming issues. You can make all of the propellant and ammunition you need in the field, so you are not tied to a supply line, whether an international one or a factory nearby. The only real disadvantages a blackpowder muzzleloader has when compared to a modern cased firearm is the lack of relative range and accuracy, which, in a real situation, is not all that big of a deal.

 

Once a machining factory gets up and running, then pretty much by definition, society has started to rebuild itself, as such a factory would require many resources (power, stock, materials for powder, primers, etc, as well as  a stable source of labor). Up until then, however, who would be producing new cartidges? Powder for propellant? New primers? Black powder muzzleloaders excel in the "in-between" period, from when all the modern cartridges are used up, and when new cartridges can be successfully produced.

The problem with that is that the in between will be more than handled by reloading, would you prefer a 45-70/50-90/45LC or a muzzle loader? Given the low chamber pressure of a 45-70/50-90/45LC and the straight walled design that brass can be reloaded many many times, all you need is the dies and a press that weights less than 20 pounds and a bullet cast. You already discussed the fact that you need primers for black powder guns the only difference with the 45-70 or 50-90 or 45LC is that you will have to make a small brass or copper cup and cast your pressure sensitive explosive in them, then press that into the primer hole in the case, all of these cartridges were originally designed for black powder, if for whatever reason you cannot make smokeless powder you can simply substitute BP.

 

You could go with a wheel lock of flint lock or matchlock design on a muzzle loader and eliminate the need for primers. That is the only way you would gain a significant edge in ease of ammunition acquisition however all of those designs were phased out in favor of cap locks becasue they all suffer from the same flaws, unreliable ignition and delayed ignition, both factors that severely hamper the accuracy and usefulness of the guns.

 

Just about any pistol cartridge suitable for the SMG in that picture has similar brass that lasts a similar number of re loadings tho black powder in a automatic weapon has some serious cleaning issues.

 

When I mentioned small munitions manufacturing I meant someone doing it in a house or barn, it would be slow and a bit dangerous but perfectly possible it could be powered without the grid, supplies would of course have to be scavenged but with the grid down there will be a hell of a lot of copper around not being used, mix with 30% zinc and presto you have brass suitable for cartridges/primers. a bit of hammer forging and annealing and you have flat brass stock suitable for forming into primers or cases depending on what presses you have made or have on hand.

 

Sincerely,

Franchi, friendly neighborhood gunsmith

 

 

P.S. Think outside the box

Edited February 21, 2014 by Franchi

[s1rGr1nG0 81]

You obviously have no clue how abundant ammo is. At least here in the U.S. ;)

 

[Duenan 226]

You obviously have no clue how abundant ammo is. At least here in the U.S. ;)

This is not the US.

 

It's supposed to be based on an ex-soviet country. While there would be arms there they wouldn't be the latest and greatest. If you're using the Arma lore of chernarus then a civil war coupled with a zombie apocalypse would leave most of the ammo to being expended.

 

Most police stations and military bases would have been overrun by a desparate populace so those places should be the most barren in the game. Not to mention the military moving its equipment to wherever it was needed. The military bases should be ghost towns when it comes to gear.

 

The other thing is the game as it stands already hardly has much of a survival plot. You spend 30 min and can find a gun and a ton of food easy if you know what to do.

 

Ammo should be the rarest thing in the game and you should find partial mags around with 2 or 3 bullets in them. Not full jammed mags everywhere.

[deebz1234 243]

wait wait wait let me get this straight...

 

so your saying survival is not about looting cans of tuna and hoarding 5.56?

 

i give up on life...

 

 

and as for the worry about loot respawn, everyone relax a touch. it wont be like this forever.

there are number rocket tweets and stream bits saying it is temporary until the performance can handle it. It may not end up like the mod in which you could farm based on your proximity to the loot, but it wont be just on restart...that is just too simple and direct. keyword randomness, so its not like OOO server restart, run to red house and top of school for exact weapon loot spots...etc

 

much agreed on the mags and ammo...this should be the hardest thing

 

simply put, if ammo were 10x less common, people would think twice about each shot.

 

right now everywhere i turn its a m4 mag or some .357 box

its total overkilll.

Edited February 21, 2014 by deebz1234

[dvsilverwing 241]

So you want the game to be even more of a hiking and camping simulator? Sorry, but no thanks, you're more or less asking for a DayZ without firearms from what I can read.

Edited February 21, 2014 by dvsilverwing

[pacific_coast 632]

So you want the game to be even more of a hiking and camping simulator? Sorry, but no thanks, you're more or less asking for a DayZ without firearms from what I can read.

yeah some people want dayz to change, dramatically.

 

SUPER SH*TNADO

IS THAT JIM LAHEY?

BEANS, LET'S GO!

[SurvivorAndy 15]

Not going to lie, I clicked this expecting a philosophical speculation on how life without other people isn't living and KOS shouldn't happen

 

 

I prefer what you've posted, it would add a lot more depth and things like heat wasn't best used in the DayZ mod.

[dvsilverwing 241]

yeah some people want dayz to change, dramatically.

 

SUPER SH*TNADO

IS THAT JIM LAHEY?

BEANS, LET'S GO!

 

We're about to sail into a shit-typhoon, Pacific.

[AryanBoogeyman 185]

Because the amount of posts on this forum trying to make this an anti-game are getting ridiculous?

 

 

Maybe you should ask the games creator how he feels about an "anti-game".

 

:lol: