The one and only Anti-PVP/PvP Discussion thread! Whine/discuss here!

[disastr 7]

Without PVP, DayZ wouldn't be even half as populated as it is now. I have over 20 people from previous games I have played with, that bought DayZ for the PVP Sandbox aspect of the game only. If the PVP was disabled or removed, not one single person in my guild would continue to play the game.

My advice for the players that are not a fan of PVP, you need to adapt and evolve as a player. If you manage to sneak by 20 zombies to gather loot and get out alive, the same rules apply to the PVP aspect. The only difference is, players are not predictable, they're random, clever and usually have a good shot.

Group up with real life friends or other players you encounter, trusting them will be the hardest thing to do... Which is why you should come on the forums and ask for friends rather than trust people in game. Remember DayZ is in Alpha, as the game progresses, I am sure newer and better systems will be put in to play, for players to group up and survive.

Welcome to DayZ

[qfan 1]

My #1 problem with pvp in this game is that it's so fantastically unrealistic. In real life death is a much scarier deterrent' date=' and there would be significantly less banditry.[/quote']

So because death would be permanent, less people would be likely to kill one another? I think you got some wires crossed here, I think you mean people would be more likely to kill, and people would be less likely to approach one another.

People would be less likely to kill each other. The world is overrun by supernaturally re-animated dead bodies and in this lonely, frightening world most people would not become cold blooded murderers by grabbing a sniper rifle and capping anyone they see for the laugh of it. Haven't played latest patch yet, so maybe this will change in time with some of the humanity changes? I think very few want pvp to be removed though, even those that have issues with the way it is balanced at the moment.

As for adapting and evolving, I have. I now kill on sight as it's the only way to be sure to deal with any potential backstabbers. Shame though. I played a pretty good team game when I first started.

[Crosshair (DayZ) 0]

My #1 problem with pvp in this game is that it's so fantastically unrealistic. In real life death is a much scarier deterrent' date=' and there would be significantly less banditry.[/quote']

So because death would be permanent, less people would be likely to kill one another? I think you got some wires crossed here, I think you mean people would be more likely to kill, and people would be less likely to approach one another.

I think what is trying to be said is that in real life, being a bandit would be a far less attractive because eventually you will run out of the lone survivors. People will group up and you will eventually come across a group that is bigger than you, who doesn't like it when you shoot people for their stuff, and who will hunt you down.

In real life you would recruit as many survivors as possible into a group, build a base of operations, and take advantage of the various skills everyone has. Cooperating to ensure the mutual survival of everyone. In real life a group of even a dozen will probably not be proficient in some important skill. That 50 year old woman may not be much use searching for supplies, but what if she is an expert seamstress who can sew bite-proof armor for those who go outside the wire? In real life only a few people can perform medical treatment more advanced than first aid. Ham operators who know how to operate long range radios are even more scarce. Ranchers and farmers would be equally valuable. In real life, cans of beans don't re-spawn.

In real life, for every person carrying a rifle for a survivor group, there will be 3 or 4 people behind them performing important tasks to keep them fed, clothed, sheltered and armed. Just to maintain an over-watch position takes 3 people, not counting the people who make sure that position stays supplied.

Also, in real life, you can't "log out" when it's time to go to bed.

[funionz 7]

My #1 problem with pvp in this game is that it's so fantastically unrealistic. In real life death is a much scarier deterrent' date=' and there would be significantly less banditry.[/quote']

So because death would be permanent, less people would be likely to kill one another? I think you got some wires crossed here, I think you mean people would be more likely to kill, and people would be less likely to approach one another.

People would be less likely to kill each other. The world is overrun by supernaturally re-animated dead bodies and in this lonely, frightening world most people would not become cold blooded murderers by grabbing a sniper rifle and capping anyone they see for the laugh of it. Haven't played latest patch yet, so maybe this will change in time with some of the humanity changes?

Not to nitpick but it's a virus, not supernatural :P

And yes, I believe people would be more likely to kill one another. Once it comes down to survival of one group of survivors over another, and people are fighting over food/gas/etc, there would most certainly be causalities. For real world reference, look at any situation thats involved a riot or natural disaster, there were those who banded together for the common good, sure. But there was also those who took advantage of the situation and started looting/killing/raping etc.

---

My #1 problem with pvp in this game is that it's so fantastically unrealistic. In real life death is a much scarier deterrent' date=' and there would be significantly less banditry.[/quote']

So because death would be permanent, less people would be likely to kill one another? I think you got some wires crossed here, I think you mean people would be more likely to kill, and people would be less likely to approach one another.

I think what is trying to be said is that in real life, being a bandit would be a far less attractive because eventually you will run out of the lone survivors. People will group up and you will eventually come across a group that is bigger than you, who doesn't like it when you shoot people for their stuff, and who will hunt you down.

Fair enough, but whos to say bandits would band together and loot & pillage the outskirts of the towns that these survivors call home? I feel that people are severely overestimating the good will of mankind. Also what you describe exists ingame, i've had several times where i've been out with a 2-man team, and found myself hiding in a bush and refusing to engage a group of heavily armed survivors, just because you're a bandit doesn't mean you're stupid.

[mofokk 6]

awesome story: i loggen in and passed out for no reason' date=' for 2-3 min! an asshole come by and start to shoot at me, not a headshot! -- no, he let me bleed! broken my leg and was just watching me dying! ...whats wrong with some people in this community?!

[/quote']

Thats just all kinds of awesome.

[qfan 1]

Not to nitpick but it's a virus' date=' not supernatural :P

And yes, I believe people would be more likely to kill one another. Once it comes down to survival of one group of survivors over another, and people are fighting over food/gas/etc, there would most certainly be causalities. For real world reference, look at any situation thats involved a riot or natural disaster, there were those who banded together for the common good, sure. But there was also those who took advantage of the situation and started looting/killing/raping etc.

[/quote']

For real world situations I guess it has a lot to do with what happened and which community it happened in. The 2004 tsunami is a good example of people banding together. For the most part it was too traumatic to take advantage of that situation. I'm sure there are plenty of examples for the opposite though.

Maybe when things are at the absolute last resort people would start to fall apart, but I guess that's my problem. Often people that kill here aren't really doing so because they're trying to survive.

[edit] I say supernatural as so far the plausibility of a virus doing this to humans is rather low :)

[doom4mr 135]

Spacecraft 100% right, everyone shoot on sight even if he's not a bandit, I think each player should decide for himself if he is a bandit or not, and then play as one of this persons...

this will bring dayz to whole new level of gameplay!

killing everyone who is better equipped than you means that when you will take his equipment you will get killed too because of the same reason, think about this.

:idea:

[InsXicht 2]

Spacecraft 100% right' date=' everyone shoot on sight even if he's not a bandit, I think each player should decide for himself if he is a bandit or not, and then play as one of this persons...

this will bring dayz to whole new level of gameplay!

killing everyone who is better equipped than you means that when you will take his equipment you will get killed too because of the same reason, think about this.

:idea:

[/quote']

Dude! ...you !CAN NOT! decide for your selfe if want be a "bandit" or not, you HAVE to be a "bandit" or every time an other player see you, you are dead!

the only way is punishment! this is why humans don't kill eachother for beens (in real life)

[7-75 callaghan 43]

Here's what I do (ofc doesn't work if taken by surprise, or if you have other priorities, but as i'm v sneaky people don't normally get one up on me).

If I spot a player/group of players, I will stalk them for a while, to get an idea of what they are like as players. If they turn out to be bandits, I will take them out, otherwise, I will attempt to communicate with them. Have added several good players to my group this way.

In response to the above comment. That is absurd, if you believe that punishment is the only basis for a moral compass, then it is you yourself who is morally bankrupt.

[NCreepy 0]

What about taking NVGs and all sniper rifle types out of the game ? I'm pretty sure it would help slightly :)

[KaeSlick 0]

It seems like the longer I play the more the game has turned from a zombie survival game into a human survival game. I swear I'm more concerned and afraid of people than zeds.....

[Soldier of Failure 14]

Kae, thats how it is supposed to be.

[Kageru 18]

Nah, that's how it is (a thin skin over a tactical simulator). I think Rocket and many of the people buying into it believe it could be more, but that's going to take time.

The only thing that's certain is that the current state is not the end goal.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

Nah' date=' that's how it is (a thin skin over a tactical simulator).[/quote']

Thin meaning content light meaning, like, Alpha, right? Okay.

I think Rocket and many of the people buying into it believe it could be more, but that's going to take time.

The only thing that's certain is that the current state is not the end goal.

rocket has been pretty definitive that he intends players to be the primary threat in DayZ. That's true now. That will likely remain true. That means PvP will play a more important role in your life than zombies.

He even went so far as to say that if you don't like PvP that there are already other zombie-themed ARMA mods that might be better for you.

So if your hope is that he's going to wake up one day and decide to put a stop to all this crazy PvP, I really think you're going to be waiting a very long time...

---

Dude! ...you !CAN NOT! decide for your selfe if want be a "bandit" or not' date=' you HAVE to be a "bandit" or every time an other player see you, you are dead![/quote']

Don't let them see you. See them first. Then you get to decide what to do. Hooray. Problem solved.

[Kageru 18]

I've never suggested PvP be removed, it just took me a while to realise there really isn't a valid alternative. Once you've got some basic gear you are more or less done with the non-PvP/Zombie part of the game unless you roleplay it yourself. And most of the mechanics even work against that since attempting to play a "survivor" is unrewarding for a lot of reasons and a substantial PvP handicap when other people are roleplaying "special forces squad".

What I want is what I think a lot of others want, a more complete game in which multiple play-styles are possible and balanced. But I'd estimate that's many months or years away, game development takes time. And in the mean-time I expect very well organized and motivated PvP centric groups will drive off the majority of the people attracted to it as a game primarily about zombies and fiercely oppose anything that reduces the focus on their preferred play style. It would be just as bad if people argued for the complete removal of all PvP. Though the pro-PvP people are generally much more motivated forum participants too.

What Rocket wants... well, that doesn't really matter as much as the mechanics he implements. The removal of the bandit skin certainly encouraged a PK outlook now (no consequences! harder to trust, harder to anti-PK, more realistic) but there's just as much chance we'll see a new humanity mechanic at some point that changes the balance again. We'll only find out over time, and since the focus is emergent gameplay I think even the designers will get some surprises.

[wolfstriked 143]

AI set to veteran,decked out in some vigilante outfits that spawn on map near a bandit every say 8 real hours with the goal of taking down the lowlifes with deadly force.:D You wanna be a bandit then deal with bandit hunters.It will deter some from taking that first life and will give excellent gameplay to the players who want to live this lifestyle.

[logan23 118]

Update to the Humanity System mechanics, DEVs Please take a look, thanks

This will be building on the Humanity System which is in the game now.

I believe that DayZ should be very brutal game to all game styles.

From "Psychology of killing" (Reference for system)

http://www.military-sf.com/Killing.htm

"Obsessional and Complusive States are like Conversion Hysteria except the soldier is more aware of what is going on. The soldier understands that fear is causing everything but he cannot do anything about it. This can be manifested by uncontrollable tremors, palpitations, stammers, tics and so on. After a while the trooper may find some kind of hysteria that allows him to escape psychic responsibility for the physical symptoms."

"Character Disorders are when a soldier becomes fixated on certain actions or things. Paranoia may include irascibility, depression and anxiety about his personal safety. Schizoids become hypersensitive and prefer to be alone. Epileptoid's become more prone to violent and sometimes unpredictable rages. Some become obsessed with religion and some become psychotic. In essence a person's very character has changed."

I designed the system to be like the Temp system…where you first lose/ decline in humanity which leads to the in system Heartbeat but if it drops to 0 (very low) and it’s been an amount of time in this state then you would get effects just like in the Temp system you get a cough/sick-lose blood.

Humanity needs to return to original starting level after each death. This will help balance variables and also not force players to play a certain style when they wish to change from a more protective shoot on site survivor to a wants to help out other survivors.

Let’s say for making numbers simple, we will use a 0-10 humanity number scale.

10= Start/full humanity

0= No Humanity

When a player kills another player-

Player is injured and returns fire and kills other player = -1 to Humanity scale

Player shoot other player and is not injured/hit during conflict = -2 to Humanity scale

Player shots player from great distance (snipers) and kills player = -3 to Humanity scale (The reason for snipering players gives a net larger lost in humanity is because they have the largest choice to not shoot and let a player go since they have the least amount of risk to them.)

As the player lowers their humanity, they start to hear the heart beat as it is in game now. But when your humanity =0 and it stays at 0 for let’s say 1 to 2 hours (these are place holder numbers) then like in the Temp system where you get a cold or shakes, while The Humanity system moves to a second level as well.

From my Reference material-

This second level of low humanity that is Humanity =0 for 1-2 hours would be:

The player would then hear gun shots, Zombie/infected voices, a gun reloading, sounds that would make a player un able to tell if it’s real or not without looking around. This would happen every so often. Script could do a get sound effect XYZ and play then do a random number = seconds/mins before another set of sounds are played again. The idea is to have it random and happen after a certain amount of time so the player will not be able to know this is from the low humanity. If the player’s water/food levels are low then this also could trigger a more constant cycle of sounds in a shorter cycle of time. This would continue until you up your Humanity to 1.

(I’m right now against adding tremors or tics to this system since it more heavily puts a burden on the player, rather it be subtle like the temp system.)

Now with this system you need a way to bring back humanity in a way that can’t be exploited but team of players.

To gain back humanity just like in the Temp System, we could make a new item that would be the antibiotics for Low Humanity.

This item could be some pills or a shot of something. (It should not be the in game pain killers because you will have players with low humanity hunting newly spawn players since they have no gun and pain killers) This should be a new item.

This item/pills/drug would only bump you from 0 humanity to 1. This means the condition could return if you kill again. To solve this from being always on the edge there needs to be a way to raise Humanity in general.

If you can script for giving blood transfusions or bandages to increase humanity but do a check so that it only raises it if it’s a different player you bandaging or to only allow players to raise from bandage ever so many minutes. And even then it should be adding only 1 to the humanity scale.

I can see humanity being raised with mechanics built around building a society and settlements. This system I’m laying out might be something that can be placed in when those side missions and building a settlement/society is ready to be implemented into DayZ.

In the end with this system I laid out you could lose your humanity get the 2nd level side effects and remove them plus work your way back to original humanity level.

This a rough but it's meant to show the scars of killing. This no more punishing then standing out in the rain at night, which will get you sick/cold. Both mechanics have ways to remove the conditions plus they are subtle and aimed to bring the mental state of person in this environment.

Tried to place it in a more script/feature mechanics so Devs can take a look at it.

Food for thought,

Let me know what you think.

[wolfstriked 143]

Maybe have it so that the really good high humanity players get a radio given to them that broadcasts bandit areas.So now its worth it to not be a bandit and you can then go on hunting sprees if broadcasts are near your area.

[funionz 7]

Maybe have it so that the really good high humanity players get a radio given to them that broadcasts bandit areas.So now its worth it to not be a bandit and you can then go on hunting sprees if broadcasts are near your area.

Then how about for players with high humanity' date=' they emit light and have doves that follow them around wherever they go? Rocket has stated he will not tilt the scales in favor of one side, so I don't know why these suggestions keep coming up.

[hr']

Update to the Humanity System mechanics' date=' DEVs Please take a look, thanks

This will be building on the Humanity System which is in the game now.

I believe that DayZ should be very brutal game to all game styles.

From "Psychology of killing" (Reference for system)

http://www.military-sf.com/Killing.htm

"Obsessional and Complusive States are like Conversion Hysteria except the soldier is more aware of what is going on. The soldier understands that fear is causing everything but he cannot do anything about it. This can be manifested by uncontrollable tremors, palpitations, stammers, tics and so on. After a while the trooper may find some kind of hysteria that allows him to escape psychic responsibility for the physical symptoms."

"Character Disorders are when a soldier becomes fixated on certain actions or things. Paranoia may include irascibility, depression and anxiety about his personal safety. Schizoids become hypersensitive and prefer to be alone. Epileptoid's become more prone to violent and sometimes unpredictable rages. Some become obsessed with religion and some become psychotic. In essence a person's very character has changed."

I designed the system to be like the Temp system…where you first lose/ decline in humanity which leads to the in system Heartbeat but if it drops to 0 (very low) and it’s been an amount of time in this state then you would get effects just like in the Temp system you get a cough/sick-lose blood.

Humanity needs to return to original starting level after each death. This will help balance variables and also not force players to play a certain style when they wish to change from a more protective shoot on site survivor to a wants to help out other survivors.

Let’s say for making numbers simple, we will use a 0-10 humanity number scale.

10= Start/full humanity

0= No Humanity

When a player kills another player-

Player is injured and returns fire and kills other player = -1 to Humanity scale

Player shoot other player and is not injured/hit during conflict = -2 to Humanity scale

Player shots player from great distance (snipers) and kills player = -3 to Humanity scale (The reason for snipering players gives a net larger lost in humanity is because they have the largest choice to not shoot and let a player go since they have the least amount of risk to them.)

As the player lowers their humanity, they start to hear the heart beat as it is in game now. But when your humanity =0 and it stays at 0 for let’s say 1 to 2 hours (these are place holder numbers) then like in the Temp system where you get a cold or shakes, while The Humanity system moves to a second level as well.

From my Reference material-

This second level of low humanity that is Humanity =0 for 1-2 hours would be:

The player would then hear gun shots, Zombie/infected voices, a gun reloading, sounds that would make a player un able to tell if it’s real or not without looking around. This would happen every so often. Script could do a get sound effect XYZ and play then do a random number = seconds/mins before another set of sounds are played again. The idea is to have it random and happen after a certain amount of time so the player will not be able to know this is from the low humanity. If the player’s water/food levels are low then this also could trigger a more constant cycle of sounds in a shorter cycle of time. This would continue until you up your Humanity to 1.

(I’m right now against adding tremors or tics to this system since it more heavily puts a burden on the player, rather it be subtle like the temp system.)

Now with this system you need a way to bring back humanity in a way that can’t be exploited but team of players.

To gain back humanity just like in the Temp System, we could make a new item that would be the antibiotics for Low Humanity.

This item could be some pills or a shot of something. (It should not be the in game pain killers because you will have players with low humanity hunting newly spawn players since they have no gun and pain killers) This should be a new item.

This item/pills/drug would only bump you from 0 humanity to 1. This means the condition could return if you kill again. To solve this from being always on the edge there needs to be a way to raise Humanity in general.

If you can script for giving blood transfusions or bandages to increase humanity but do a check so that it only raises it if it’s a different player you bandaging or to only allow players to raise from bandage ever so many minutes. And even then it should be adding only 1 to the humanity scale.

I can see humanity being raised with mechanics built around building a society and settlements. This system I’m laying out might be something that can be placed in when those side missions and building a settlement/society is ready to be implemented into DayZ.

In the end with this system I laid out you could lose your humanity get the 2nd level side effects and remove them plus work your way back to original humanity level.

This a rough but it's meant to show the scars of killing. This no more punishing then standing out in the rain at night, which will get you sick/cold. Both mechanics have ways to remove the conditions plus they are subtle and aimed to bring the mental state of person in this environment.

Tried to place it in a more script/feature mechanics so Devs can take a look at it.

Food for thought,

Let me know what you think.

[/quote']

It's obvious you put a lot of thought into this, which is more than I can say for the majority of the people who posted in here, but the idea that we would hear gunshots and voices and see things that aren't there... Well it just seems like a bad idea. There's just too many variables to consider whether or not a person would be succeptable to this kind of psychosis, a natural serial killer would probably be no different in practice than a normal person, his mind would be conditioned to that sort of thing.

[Bucket (DayZ) 0]

I would actually like to see a few more PVE-based objectives. Specifically, A.I. CIVILIANS. I think it would be awesome to have a few pockets of civilians spawn at random (and very rarely) in high-danger areas -- I'm thinking inside interior locations inside large towns or cities. The PVE objectives might be to a) clear the building they're in, b) capture and hold some key points around the building for a certain amount of time, and then c) bring the civilians X amount of food, water, or medical supplies. The payoff could be that if these objectives are completed the civilians could provide/trade some rarer gear (anything from maps to compasses to backpacks to car parts to, maybe on rare occasions, NVG -- non-combat stuff only). This stage should be very difficult to achieve and to maintain.

For me, the appeal of this kind of feature would be immersion. As I've said previously in this thread, most zombie movies/books stress banding together and fortifying a position, not killing just for the fun of it. This allows a dynamic way of achieving that same kind of experience. It doesn't do anything to hinder PVP beyond simply giving players a more significant reason to band together instead of deathmatching. In my opinion, this could make the game so much more immersive. It's also completely voluntary. Don't want to get involved? You don't have to. Want to grief the players trying to achieve it by killing them and/or the civilians? Go for it. :)

[Alexey Zemanov 6]

So it's basically a raid?

[Bucket (DayZ) 0]

So it's basically a raid?

You mean like an MMORPG raid? I don't see it like that. It doesn't occur inside a separate instance or anything -- it would be in an existing in-game location, such as the Electro grocery store. The rest of the world goes on as usual around it, but it provides an opportunity for a little objective-based play in the middle of all of that.

[logan23 118]

I'm against the idea of seeing objects or phantom figures because it could cause a player to shoot and Aggro Zeds ,leading to the player's death which I see as unfair and punishing.

The hearing or audio sounds are less intrusive then the shaking hands from being sick. The audio sounds are just to immerse the player in the mind of paranoia that does happen, just look at the link in my post above for reference.

Players should not get a benefit for high humanity because there is no benefit to having a high/ correct/healthy temp.

The way I look at it that all players will end up losing humanity because that's what would happen, it's hard to keep your humanity seeing all the crazy going on. But there needs to always be ways of raising the humanity.

I say yes to only audio and the player needs to have low humanity for a good period of time, 1-2 hours before feeling the effects. Once the player feels the effects they will say ok I need to find away to remove this. Just like when your sick and say ok I need antibiotics :-)

[Bucket (DayZ) 0]

There's just too many variables to consider whether or not a person would be succeptable to this kind of psychosis' date=' a natural serial killer would probably be no different in practice than a normal person, his mind would be conditioned to that sort of thing.

[/quote']

True, but the game already makes generalizations about character physique and skill level (everyone can set a broken bone, repair a car, etc.). Making the same kind of generalization about character mental state isn't that much of a stretch, in my opinion. Plus, "natural serial killers" are rare enough IRL that I don't think they need special consideration.

I kind of like this idea, Logan. Ironically, it might make the bandit/murderer play style MORE fun and intense, as it adds an additional level of stress and paranoia. I'm not sure how much of an effect on the amount of PVP it would have, though, although maybe you don't mean it to. The effect might be too subtle. Not sure.

[logan23 118]

There's just too many variables to consider whether or not a person would be succeptable to this kind of psychosis' date=' a natural serial killer would probably be no different in practice than a normal person, his mind would be conditioned to that sort of thing.

[/quote']

True, but the game already makes generalizations about character physique and skill level (everyone can set a broken bone, repair a car, etc.). Making the same kind of generalization about character mental state isn't that much of a stretch, in my opinion. Plus, "natural serial killers" are rare enough IRL that I don't think they need special consideration.

I kind of like this idea, Logan. Ironically, it might make the bandit/murderer play style MORE fun and intense, as it adds an additional level of stress and paranoia. I'm not sure how much of an effect on the amount of PVP it would have, though, although maybe you don't mean it to. The effect might be too subtle. Not sure.

The system is not meant to stop PvP ,no more then the Temp system is meant to stop a player from playing in the rain. The system is meant to bring another layer to the game. Some players will not like the idea since they don't want any interference with the way they want to PvP, but the rest will look at it as something new and brings a nice layer to the experience.

Just as they took away weapons to bring a new layer of fear into the game, so this new humanity system level will bring a more defining experience to those who play more PvP or simply kill players.

It's about bring many layers to many different playstyles.

Many of the cut down on PvP will come from content on building society, I believe.