An alternative to a "humanity" or "sanity" system.

[Etherimp 1323]

So I was thinking last night about the old humanity system and how upon reaching a certain level you became "hero", and if you killed someone you lost hero status even if it was in self defense, and how bandits were not really encouraged to change their ways upon becoming bandits, because people (everyone including other bandits) would just shoot them on sight. I don't think this system really worked, as realistically it just doesn't make sense.. If I am a "hero", and I am attempting to help a fresh spawn by giving him a blood bag, and then he pulls out a pistol and starts shooting me, and I end up winning the gun fight with very little blood left, why should I LOSE humanity for having to do what I had to do for my own survival? This has actually happened to me, in the mod..

 

As far as Bandits go.. How does it make sense that bandits would immediately change their clothing after killing a few people, so everyone around them can see from 500+ meters away that they are a bandit? Especially if there were no witnesses...?

 

Likewise, I do not like the idea of a "sanity" system..

 

Psychopaths and sociopaths can continue to kill people without remorse.

 

A Hero who has to kill someone may feel some sympathy/remorse, but if he was in a position where he had to do it for survival, odds are killing that person would not drive him insane... Look at soldiers in Baghdad/Afghanistan. While many of them do come back home with PTSD, there's nothing that suggests having to shoot a Taliban insurgent is what caused them PTSD.. And PTSD does not manifest through "insanity", but more like depression and hopelessness.

 

Basically, morals are subjective and relative, and some people have more "morals" than others, and thus different people are going to be affected differently by having to commit murder, and it's going to be very dependent upon the situation, not just "who" they shot, but whether they feel justified in shooting them or not.

 

So, I propose another system that I think would not be too difficult to implement..Another "take" on the humanity system, if you will...

 

Every character starts with 50% Humanity.. This is a "neutral" position, and OVER TIME, (IE - maybe 1% every 4 hours of game time), all players humanity will slowly move towards 50%. 

 

If you kill another player, you lose 1/2 of that players humanity. So, a fresh spawn with 50% humanity kills another fresh spawn, they lose 25% humanity, and end up at 25% humanity. A Hero, who has 100% humanity, shoots a fresh spawn with 50% humanity, he loses 25% humanity, taking him down to 75%.. Meanwhile, a survivor or a hero who kill a bandit with 10% humanity, only lose 5% humanity. Nobody can go above 100% or below 0%. . If you're a hero, you have to keep doing heroic deeds in order to maintain your hero status, and if you are a bandit, as long as you continue killing people, you will continue being a bandit.. If, for example, you have had to kill a few people and somehow end up with 0 humanity, it will take you several days of play time in order to work yourself back up to "neutrality", so it will be a slow process, but it is possible to turn yourself around.

 

So, how do you KNOW your humanity or someone elses humanity? Instead of having separate skins, I was thinking of a more subtle way.. 

Think of a spectrum between 0% -> 100%, where the middle is "gray", 0% is black, and 100% is white..

 

The closer you are to 100%, the softer your features become.. Your clothing and facial features take on a lighter hue.. Are more clear and distinct.. Eyes are open and eyebrows in "upward" position, your mouth has a slight smile on it, giving others the impression that you are honest, trustworthy, helpful, and friendly.. 

 

At 50%, your "hue" is neutral.. gray.. Your mouth is a straight line, eyebrows in a neutral position, eyes slightly squinted, clothing looks "normal".. Facial features are neutral/default.

 

At 0%, you carry a dark aura.. your clothing and features look darker.. Deeper lines in your face.. dark circles around your eyes, eyebrows are narrow and pinched downward.. you carry a perpetual scowl or frown.. Your facial features have sharper edges. All of this subtly indicates to others that you are a dark person who carries a heavy weight on his soul.

 

When you die, your humanity is reset to 50%.. New life = new opportunities.

 

 

The changes are subtle.. As you move from 50% in one direction or another the features slowly change, and are not readily apparently with small gains/losses in humanity.. It would require great attention to detail to tell the difference between someone with 35% and 50% humanity at a glance.. You may have to look at them for a while to notice that they are beginning to get dark circles under their eyes, or that their face carries slightly thicker lines than the average person.. but once you see a bandit with 0% humanity, you can see a stark contrast between them and a fresh spawn.

How would you gain humanity? Donating blood and giving medical attention are obvious.. but what about giving someone a water bottle? What about giving a fresh spawn supplies? It may be more difficult for the game to track this, and there is some potential for abuse.. so possibly keeping it limited to medical attention may make the most sense.. Maybe killing bandits could give you a small reward (5% if they are at 0%, and 1% less for every 2% humanity, up to 10%)

 

You should also lose humanity for force feeding people disinfectant spray or rotten fruit.. Also torturing people by dealing damage to them from punches or other melee attacks.. shooting people obviously.. Handcuffing people seems rather neutral so long as you do not follow up with stealing from them, which would cause a loss in humanity if they were at 50% or higher.

 

 

Anyhow, I think that thoroughly explains my idea.. Any questions/suggestions/ideas? What do you guys think? I'd like to hear from both sides of the fence on the KOS issue.. I know a lot of people do not like the sanity idea, and neither do I.. But do you feel like this kind of system would be organic enough and would make sense? 

[Mos1ey 6301]

Please do not create more than one topic with the same content. Cross-posting is not allowed.

 

Just one topic in the correct sub-forum will do.

 

Thanks.

[Etherimp 1323]

Please do not create more than one topic with the same content. Cross-posting is not allowed.

 

Just one topic in the correct sub-forum will do.

 

Thanks.

 

Sorry about that.. posted in General Discussion first, then figured on second thought that it may be better suited for the Suggestions forum, in hopes that the dev team actually look here more often.

[Mos1ey 6301]

Sorry about that.. posted in General Discussion first, then figured on second thought that it may be better suited for the Suggestions forum, in hopes that the dev team actually look here more often.

 

In future either use the report button and request that your topic be moved to the correct place or just PM a moderator that is currently online.

[thedogfoodyayho 295]

Yes.

[Etherimp 1323]

Bump

[Etherimp 1323]

Bump

[General Zod 1118]

No

There shall be now marking upon thy. Thy shall be able to conceal it's true intent and bring harm onto those who do not expect it. 

[Etherimp 1323]

No

There shall be now marking upon thy. Thy shall be able to conceal it's true intent and bring harm onto those who do not expect it. 

 

There shall be *no* marking upon *thee*, thy shall be unable to conceal *its* true intent and bring harm *unto* those who do not expect it.

 

^---

[dekartz 315]

I don't think the game or any system within the game should judge a player's morality or perceived morality. I do think that there should be more clothing variation that would help differentiate "bandits" and "heroes". Perhaps make med-packs visible on a character's person. Have the ammo-pouches on some of the assault vests reflect whether someone's fully stocked on ammo or not. Sure, these aren't any clear indicators of anything other than something someone might be carrying and may be more resource intensive, but the more details that can be gleaned from a person by looking at them (IE: If someone's loaded up for an extended gun-fight or if they're a walking ambulance) the more informed decisions a person can make in how they approach a particular situation.

 

Even with just more "regular" clothing options this would be available. For example: It seems to be a popular sentiment amongst the community that anyone wearing the "Payday Masks" is a bandit. Sure, there are people who wear the masks and aren't bandits and there are people who don't wear the masks and who are bandits. But more "aggressive" clothing options are more likely to appeal to someone who wants to intimidate their enemies than others. As would clothing with a bit more specific utility: Vests that specifically hold extra magazines or bandoliers, or wearable medical-kits.

[Etherimp 1323]

I don't think the game or any system within the game should judge a player's morality or perceived morality. I do think that there should be more clothing variation that would help differentiate "bandits" and "heroes". Perhaps make med-packs visible on a character's person. Have the ammo-pouches on some of the assault vests reflect whether someone's fully stocked on ammo or not. Sure, these aren't any clear indicators of anything other than something someone might be carrying and may be more resource intensive, but the more details that can be gleaned from a person by looking at them (IE: If someone's loaded up for an extended gun-fight or if they're a walking ambulance) the more informed decisions a person can make in how they approach a particular situation.

 

Even with just more "regular" clothing options this would be available. For example: It seems to be a popular sentiment amongst the community that anyone wearing the "Payday Masks" is a bandit. Sure, there are people who wear the masks and aren't bandits and there are people who don't wear the masks and who are bandits. But more "aggressive" clothing options are more likely to appeal to someone who wants to intimidate their enemies than others. As would clothing with a bit more specific utility: Vests that specifically hold extra magazines or bandoliers, or wearable medical-kits.

 

 

Did you read my post? Your "morality" would only be reflected by very small changes in your physical features and overall "aura" to give the impression of someone trustworthy or sinister.. The signs are also "true to life", and/or realistic. You don't see any mugshots of serial killers where they look like happy and trustworthy people, and likewise you don't see many charitable saints that have a sinister aura. 

[dekartz 315]

Did you read my post? Your "morality" would only be reflected by very small changes in your physical features and overall "aura" to give the impression of someone trustworthy or sinister.. The signs are also "true to life", and/or realistic. You don't see any mugshots of serial killers where they look like happy and trustworthy people, and likewise you don't see many charitable saints that have a sinister aura. 

The existence of "auras" is arguable and their perception is largely subjective.

 

Also a mugshot is of someone after they've been caught and hauled in by police, a largely unpleasant experience.

 

However a common assertion of serial killers has always been: "He was such a nice guy" or "He was so quiet"

 

Plenty of nice people look like douchebags and plenty of douchebags look like nice people. My proposed system allows you to make judgments based on quantifiable observations and something that is ultimately fallible (a requirement for such a system). What you have proposed is a more subtle version of something that had been proposed and rejected in the past.

[Etherimp 1323]

The existence of "auras" is arguable and their perception is largely subjective.

 

Also a mugshot is of someone after they've been caught and hauled in by police, a largely unpleasant experience.

 

However a common assertion of serial killers has always been: "He was such a nice guy" or "He was so quiet"

 

Plenty of nice people look like douchebags and plenty of douchebags look like nice people. My proposed system allows you to make judgments based on quantifiable observations and something that is ultimately fallible (a requirement for such a system). What you have proposed is a more subtle version of something that had been proposed and rejected in the past.

 

 

While it's true that some people can LOOK trustworthy actually are not, and not ALL bad people "look" sinister, it is almost impossible to hide micro-expressions and body language.

 

"Aura" is a bad word for what I was proposing. Deeper lines in the face, a grimace/smile/straight line for the mouth, darker or lighter eyes, eye-brows in different shapes/positions, and the "hue" of someones cloths, just added for affect. 

 

It's possible to look like a "nice guy" to the untrained observer, but in the presence of animals (who have enhances senses.. such as the ability to smell body chemistry) or even in the presence of someone who is extremely observant or a "good judge of character", there are certain tells everyone has which betray qualities of their personality.

 

 

Just a couple quick results on google for you:

 

http://www.businessballs.com/body-language.htm

 

http://www.paulekman.com/product-category/face-training/

 

 

Micro-expressions are extremely interesting, and they cross cultural boundaries. 

Smile = Happiness

Frown = Sadness

Grimace/Wince = Pain

Scowl = Anger

 

The position of someones eyebrows, sides of their mouth, and the tension/relaxation of their face (or certain body parts) gives clear indications as to how they are feeling or what they are thinking. 

 

It would not be extremely "gamey" to introduce this into DayZ.. You could take a few liberties and make a very effective (but subtle) system for indicating a persons recent actions.. Meanwhile, you could also reset this "status" upon death, so that someones recent actions would not last forever. 

 

Furthermore, while I have seen a "sanity" system proposed, as well as a "ribbon" system or a "hero vs bandit" humanity system like there was in the Mod, I have never seen/read anything like this being suggested before, which is why I posted it. 

Edited February 5, 2014 by Etherimp

[dekartz 315]

Perception of body language is not an infallible system in real life, thus portraying it as such in a video-game would ultimately be "gamey"

 

 

Also, while the details of how a particular player would be labeled for their actions are different in the various posts, the core concept is still the same: A mechanic in the game that labels the player based upon their actions (and the perceived morality of those actions) in game.

 
Whether it's skins, hats, bandannas, or subtle expressions the goal is still the same.

[skyline-gtr 130]

If I understand by your System, killing a fresh spawn as a fresh spawn would make you lose your humanity by a certain extent, pushing you towards the bandit side of the system.

So in the case of a group of fresh spawns attacking another fresh spawn. The person if they survive the encounter, with what we might term bandits, would be labeled as a bandit, while they might in fact have all the intentions of being a hero.

[General Zod 1118]

There shall be *no* marking upon *thee*, thy shall be unable to conceal *its* true intent and bring harm *unto* those who do not expect it.

 

^---

Yea I just noticed those.

Well 6:36 AM is not a good time to write bible style post.  :|

[Etherimp 1323]

If I understand by your System, killing a fresh spawn as a fresh spawn would make you lose your humanity by a certain extent, pushing you towards the bandit side of the system.

So in the case of a group of fresh spawns attacking another fresh spawn. The person if they survive the encounter, with what we might term bandits, would be labeled as a bandit, while they might in fact have all the intentions of being a hero.

 

 

If the Fresh spawn attacks another fresh spawn, or someone on the hero/positive side of the scale, they would be pushed towards the negative side... If they attacked a "bandit", however, they would not.

 

Also keep in mind that you lose more/less depending upon how high/low the other persons is.. Of course, the numbers and exact mechanics proposed in my post are estimates.. The exact #'s and mechanics could be tweaked and worked on.

 

I think it also bears repeating that your "humanity" will slowly drift towards 50%.. So if you are a player who takes surviving seriously and you do a lot of "good deeds", any negative hit you take can be easily overcome if you continue to survive and do good deeds.. for example:

 

A hero with 100% humanity bar goes down to the coast and seeks to help fresh spawns.. A fresh spawn with 50% humanity runs up to him, and punches him.. The Fresh spawn loses 50% of the hero's humanity, which is 50%... The Fresh spawn is at 50%.. So he loses ALL of his humanity, immediately, by attacking the hero..

 

Now the hero kills the fresh spawn in self-defense..

 

The hero loses 50% of the fresh spawns humanity, which is 0... The hero loses nothing.

 

Even if the "good guy" only had 50% humanity, and the fresh spawn attacked him, the fresh spawn would be at 25%, and the hero would only lose 12.5%, putting him at 37.5%.. If he proceeded upon his quest to help others and gave away some supplies, saline bags, bloog bags, and survived a few hours, he could easily be above 50% by the end of his play session.

[skyline-gtr 130]

So in the example I posted, a group a fresh spawns attack a fresh spawn, and the 1 fresh spawn survives by killing the group. What happens ?

[skyline-gtr 130]

Another scenario, a hero is attempting to help a fresh spawn. The fresh spawn makes moves to attack the hero. Does the hero have to wait for the fresh spawn to hit him first ?

[Etherimp 1323]

So in the example I posted, a group a fresh spawns attack a fresh spawn, and the 1 fresh spawn survives by killing the group. What happens ?

 

 

Easy solution: Killing someone who attacked you first = 0 humanity loss. 

[skyline-gtr 130]

I wont waste any more of your time discussing scenarions to expose the flaws in your system.

 

Here is something I posted in another similar thread, it might explain why this kind of system will never be acceptable to some people because they are all inherintley flawed.

 

 

I enjoy the option to be whatever I want, whenever I want.

I feel no need to be shoehorned into someone else idea of what a bandit, hero, KoSer is, by some of my previous actions.

 

The fact is, no system is perfect. Especially with computers.

It is far to easy for them to interrpret one action or a series of actions as "definition A", when it could in fact be "definition B".

 

No compuer can in fact read a persons "intent", it relys on actions only and when the actions of different intents can easily be very similar or even the same, then you can maybe see the issue here.

 

Another reason why your idea in particular is flawed is that it appears quite simple to farm for hero status. It requires 3 people I think. One to farm a civ to become a bandit and another to farm the bandit to become a hero. Now these 3 guys can move around out of sight and when confronting another player they simply use whichever of the 3 status is more suitable and send them into view, meanwhile after gaining trust they simply take your stuff, maybe humiliate you in some way also for teh lulz.

[Etherimp 1323]

Another scenario, a hero is attempting to help a fresh spawn. The fresh spawn makes moves to attack the hero. Does the hero have to wait for the fresh spawn to hit him first ?

 

I would say yes.. In our current legal system, you can't use lethal force against someone who does not pose a threat to your life or another persons life. While hypothetically the fresh spawn could knock you unconscious, steal your gear, THEN kill you, that's also possible in the American legal system.. This is why you roll with friends when you're going to help fresh spawns..

 

That way, as soon as a fresh spawn punches your friend, you put him down and take a small humanity hit, for having to murder someone who was unarmed.. Although, as explained above, for a hero this hit would not be very difficult to overcome.

[Etherimp 1323]

I wont waste any more of your time discussing scenarions to expose the flaws in your system.

 

Here is something I posted in another similar thread, it might explain why this kind of system will never be acceptable to some people because they are all inherintley flawed.

 

 

I enjoy the option to be whatever I want, whenever I want.

I feel no need to be shoehorned into someone else idea of what a bandit, hero, KoSer is, by some of my previous actions.

 

The fact is, no system is perfect. Especially with computers.

It is far to easy for them to interrpret one action or a series of actions as "definition A", when it could in fact be "definition B".

 

No compuer can in fact read a persons "intent", it relys on actions only and when the actions of different intents can easily be very similar or even the same, then you can maybe see the issue here.

 

Another reason why your idea in particular is flawed is that it appears quite simple to farm for hero status. It requires 3 people I think. One to farm a civ to become a bandit and another to farm the bandit to become a hero. Now these 3 guys can move around out of sight and when confronting another player they simply use whichever of the 3 status is more suitable and send them into view, meanwhile after gaining trust they simply take your stuff, maybe humiliate you in some way also for teh lulz.

 

 

Of course.. Any system is exploitable. It was easily exploitable in the mod.

 

Bandit? No problem.. Use blood bags on friends all day.

 

Difference with the system I propose is that humanity is temporary / last only one life.. So why go through all the trouble for just 1 life?

Edited February 5, 2014 by Etherimp

[skyline-gtr 130]

I would say yes.. In our current legal system, you can't use lethal force against someone who does not pose a threat to your life or another persons life. While hypothetically the fresh spawn could knock you unconscious, steal your gear, THEN kill you, that's also possible in the American legal system.. This is why you roll with friends when you're going to help fresh spawns..

 

That way, as soon as a fresh spawn punches your friend, you put him down and take a small humanity hit, for having to murder someone who was unarmed.. Although, as explained above, for a hero this hit would not be very difficult to overcome.

 

to be a hero, you need friends and have to take a punch to the face. nice one...

[skyline-gtr 130]

Of course.. Any system is exploitable. It was easily exploitable in the mod.

 

Bandit? No problem.. Use blood bags on friends all day.

 

Difference with the system I propose is that humanity is temporary / last only one life.. So why go through all the trouble for just 1 life?

 

 

Why should an easily exploitable system be implemented ?