Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[Rantanplan 18]

How about having this floating at the viewpoint of the 3PP players?!

Even better if it also casts a ray of light at the area that it scans :P

[Ken Bean 174]

your comment is obsolete and baseless...

 

it IS an exploit to the FACT that you can see an area (while crouching behind a wall, or if you are on the corner of a building and you just watch from the corner if the area is free or not, which you NEVER would be able normally) which you actually shouldn't when you don't stick your head out...What does that mean? it means, that you actually do something which is physically not possible at all normally. And this game, is normally BASED to reality factors like, hunger, thirst, real world conditions and all that... You say you accept all those facts but you don't accept the fact that 3rd person camera is unrealistic huh?... it just suits you that you have something now you can exploit and you wouldn't know what to do if it were taken (coz simply given, you just are scared to pop your head around the corner coz you think you might get the bullet.Because this is exactly what you do aren't ya? you ambush people from places where you stay safe and you exploit this feat in order to get people)

 

just tell me how you do that in real life?... can you? no... so it IS an exploit actually...

 

the game gives you the freedom to use this, I even don't understand the developers why they do so, but I leave it to them.

 

Nope, its not. Exploit would mean one would abuse a coding bug in an unintended way. 3rd person is not a bug and as it is, it is coded like it was ought to be.

 

Just like "Hey I code a in a function." --> Function works. :thumbsup:

 

 

==> 3rd person is just a very well working game feature.

 

You may think it is an exploit because you can't comprehend the nature of the 3rd person. Yes, 3rd person might be unrealistic but not as unralistic like the 1st person view is - with all it extremely unrealistic limited senses of yourself and your souroundings.

 

Tried to make some simple sentences. Hope it worked out well.

 

So, and what you think what might be the most realistic realism....?

Not having 3rd person? Something like this you guys are repeating the whole day. Nope, you are wrong. 1st person view is not realistic. And even if it would be, I couldn't care less, since as said, I want to see my character doing survival stuff. The game looks beautiful in 3rd person and I can see my fancy pants ingame. 1st person can't compete with it in all it's fancy awesomeness.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Ken Bean

[P8f4El 1]

I just read through this entire thread and i'd just like to applaud phlOgistOn for sticking to his guns and putting forward well argument replies throughout it.

 

As for the actual issue, i fear i can't add much. The Fourth Wall mod shown in the OP seems like a really good way to tackle this i feel, with some added work to make it a bit more fluid.

[Ken Bean 174]

I just read through this entire thread and i'd just like to applaud phlOgistOn for sticking to his guns and putting forward well argument replies throughout it.

 

As for the actual issue, i fear i can't add much. The Fourth Wall mod shown in the OP seems like a really good way to tackle this i feel, with some added work to make it a bit more fluid.

 

 

Not really. It kind of breaks the 3rd person since it couldn't correct the flaws of the 1st person any longer, in regards of the extremely cut-off senses the 1st person has.

 

A game has not the abilities to deliver a true realistic experience since you only have to rely on 2 senses out of five. Sound is a big issue and it doesn't come close to relism. Same goes for visuals. Also the whole feel of your position in the world, your body, everything is cut-off and there's no better way to substitude the loss than having 3rd person.

 

The attempts of the third wall arte nice, competitionwhise, but it's a drawback in regards of a realistic experience. For me it is a good example for trying to fix what is not broken - just for the sake of focusing some pvp gaming.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Ken Bean

[Rantanplan 18]

...

You may think it is an exploit because you can't comprehend the nature of the 3rd person. Yes, 3rd person might be unrealistic but not as unralistic like the 1st person view is - with all it extremely unrealistic limited senses of yourself and your souroundings.

...

Seeing requires a line-of-sight from your eyes to the target. If there is such a line-of-sight for you to the target, then there is usually also a line-of-sight from the target to you.

In 1PP that is given, you lean around corners, you stand up to look over a wall, or you open the door and walk out to see what is outside the room/building.

 

Please explain me what limited senses have been substituted to be able to peek over a ledge to observe someone 200m away. Must be some kind of supernatural 6th sense to feel not just the presence but the exact location, his outfit and what he is doing...

 

Using a design weakness is a very bad substitution to compensate for another design weakness...

[Ken Bean 174]

Seeing requires a line-of-sight from your eyes to the target. If there is such a line-of-sight for you to the target, then there is usually also a line-of-sight from the target to you.

In 1PP that is given, you lean around corners, you stand up to look over a wall, or you open the door and walk out to see what is outside the room/building.

 

Please explain me what limited senses have been substituted to be able to peek over a ledge to observe someone 200m away. Must be some kind of supernatural 6th sense to feel not just the presence but the exact location, his outfit and what he is doing...

 

Using a design weakness is a very bad substitution to compensate for another design weakness...

 

Well it has been said a thousand times and it pretty much self explanatory that an average human beingcan see better than a 27" monitor. Plus one can smell pretty good, feeling preasure differences, things what all these tiny cells feel, ya know?

 

I also actually can hear my souroundings better than seeing it. I know whats going on on the other side of a wall without doing magic. Okay, you of cause can call it magic but my super awesome sences tell me, that right at the moment there's someone washing the dishes 2 rooms away. Crazy, isn't it? I don't see shit through 2 walls, but actually can't sleep because of it. Even if I close my eyes.

 

Please, really, such topics has been made endlessly here and it's always the same nonsense. Just get your head free from your fixed ideas and see how amputated an ingame character is compared to real life.

 

Well okay, sometimes it's funny. (When they fall from roofs because they were looking through threir scope, not recognising that most of their body was flying in the air.)

 

Sure, you guys also can continue to play Kelly Bundy but everyone with the right mind just "sees" that taking away from something limited just goes into the wrong direction.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Ken Bean

[tommes 331]

Don't try to have a serious discussion with Ken here. His mind is set and he neither wants or can contribute anything constructive on this topic.

[Rantanplan 18]

...

I also actually can hear my souroundings better than seeing it. I know whats going on on the other side of a wall without doing magic. Okay, you of cause can call it magic but my super awesome sences tell me, that right at the moment there's someone washing the dishes 2 rooms away. Crazy, isn't it?...

And can you also tell me the color of the shirt of that person that is washing the dishes???

 

You don't substitute a bad sound with supervision, but you fix the sound.

And for the smell we may get dogs, don't tell me that you ever tried to hunt someone on your own by scent...

[tommes 331]

Well it has been said a thousand times and it pretty much self explanatory that an average human beingcan see better than a 27" monitor.

You're right. My monitor doesn't see shit. It's got no eyes.

[Ken Bean 174]

And can you also tell me the color of the shirt of that person that is washing the dishes???

 

You don't substitute a bad sound with supervision, but you fix the sound.

And for the smell we may get dogs, don't tell me that you ever tried to hunt someone on your own by scent...

 

 

There's no way to fix sences that can't be transported within a game. The 3rd person is there to compensate the excessive (and also annoying) flaws of the 1st person.

 

The game simply put is not an natural environment. Your character ingame is not a natural person. It has some very serious deficits, leading to a very simplified game-world-experience. Fixing it to first person just simplifies way more.

 

You guys seems to be on war with the complexity of an natural environment.

 

 

One thing I may add:

There was a video where some guys stood behind a wall and another guy in 3rd person saw them, thowing a granade over the wall. Well, that's not soo unrealistic as you may think. Granades use to fly in curves for a very long time and the only reason, wars don't end that soon is, everyone knows that. So military guys use to watch their environment, actually not having an unwatched wall to the enemy where everyone could throw granades over. Some may call it "front line" -> This is a line that is ought to be difficult to pass across. Most of the time this area even is wider than a granade can be thrown.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Ken Bean

[Rantanplan 18]

There's no way to fix sences that can't be transported within a game. The 3rd person is there to compensate the excessive (and also annoying) flaws of the 1st person.

Well, if 3PP was to substitute smell, it would be a pitch black screens with a dim light depending on the direction of the wind...

Taste and touch are local to your body, and can't explain why you would know about someones presence 50m away either.

 

Leaves vision and sound, and these are recreated in the game.

If the guy 50m away doesn't move you will have no chance to hear him.

And if you want to see him, you have to expose yourself.

Edited January 13, 2014 by Rantanplan

[svisketyggeren 662]

The exact same thing could be said for 1st person players. Nobody is forcing them to play in 1PV. It's a choice and small group of players like the immersion and realism of playing that way. But you don't HAVE to play that way. It's your choice because you "like it".

 

How many god damn times do we need to remind ppl that 1rs person players are not the minority! All polls in the past indicate 3rd person players to be the minority!

[Zombie Jesus 723]

 

How many god damn times do we need to remind ppl that 1rs person players are not the minority! All polls in the past indicate 3rd person players to be the minority!

 

I bet if you take a poll on an ultra right wing website you might think Barack Obama is the Anti Christ Socialist from Kenya, that does not mean the majority of the people actually believe that viewpoint. Learn how statistics work and how to actually analyze a population's views in a statistically relevant manner and come back and post that sentence again without feeling dirty. 

 

Since no valid poll has ever been conducted (and to top it off the poll you are referencing did not even ask the preference it only asked if people would still play if 3PP was removed) lets not get bogged down in which perspective is actually in the majority. If we are going by the only non biased source which is server populations then it is clear, but even there many have pointed out the problems with using that as a source so it is not bullet proof either. 

 

I actually think some of the ideas in this thread were worth the read and it is nice to see Tommes making relevant points and not getting frustrated with other users. I have actually learned to enjoy 1PP with my newly upgraded computer so maybe with increased optimization more people will find themselves enjoying 1PP as the game performs better. I have made it well known that I am never in favor of removing variety so do not count me as a full convert, but I would love to see some of the exploits removed and so far some decent ideas have been presented. Whether or not they are feasible with the current architecture remains to be seen, but we can all hope for a better game. 

Edited January 13, 2014 by Zombie Jesus

[gibonez 3633]

How many god damn times do we need to remind ppl that 1rs person players are not the minority! All polls in the past indicate 3rd person players to be the minority!

 

Absolutely.

 

Fpv players and more importantly the only part of the community that matter the people who have been here since day 1. The hardcore players who were here from Operation flashpoint want tpv gone they want pvp to be fair and just.

[morrow 19]

I've locked the other thread in the hope that the discussion can have a fresh and sober start here.

 

Please be civil. This is just about a mechanic in a computer game, after all.

 

Insults and personal attacks will be moderated.

Hey bud can this be moved to suggestions?

[floj 393]

I just read through this entire thread and i'd just like to applaud phlOgistOn for sticking to his guns and putting forward well argument replies throughout it.

Ty :)

 

1st person view is not realistic. And even if it would be, I couldn't care less, since as said, I want to see my character doing survival stuff. The game looks beautiful in 3rd person and I can see my fancy pants ingame. 1st person can't compete with it in all it's fancy awesomeness.

Get a friend to do survival stuff with you, watch him? Maybe make a friend by not KOSing them from an invisible position, lend them your fancy pants and watch them instead? Or just have the fourth wall type method implemented and you can watch yourself doing anything you like, you just won't be able to watch *other people* unless you'd physically be able to IRL.

 

There was a video where some guys stood behind a wall and another guy in 3rd person saw them, thowing a granade over the wall. Well, that's not soo unrealistic as you may think. Granades use to fly in curves for a very long time and the only reason, wars don't end that soon is, everyone knows that. So military guys use to watch their environment, actually not having an unwatched wall to the enemy where everyone could throw granades over. Some may call it "front line" -> This is a line that is ought to be difficult to pass across. Most of the time this area even is wider than a granade can be thrown.

There's no way for people to see others through a wall, rock or round corners. Yes the sound design needs fixing for 1PP and 3PP (and also we need to rid the world of horrible VOIP not being overheard in the game so you can hear the spotters from a distance)

 

The unrealistic part of that video is not that grenades used to fly in curves (indeed 'used to' seems superfluous unless the laws of gravity have disappeared whilst I wasn't paying attention). He knew exactly where the motionless enemies were, without needing line of sight. That's the lack of realism

 

Front line is a very generic term, do you mean as in Trench warfare where people even invented a periscope rifle to shoot without exposing themselves? Otherwise they got shot by a sniper or hit by shrapnel whilst trying to observe no-man's land. They also dug forward 'listening posts' to advance close enough to listen to communication in the enemy trenches without sticking their heads up above the parapet.

 

Anyway, good sound design and then implement the fourth wall idea seems to be what you want...and that's the same as me and the other advocates for this, so *high five*

 

Put the periscope rifle in the suggestions forum if you want one, it's like a mosin, but only accurate to 90m.

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

Don't try to have a serious discussion with Ken here. His mind is set and he neither wants or can contribute anything constructive on this topic.

He makes a lot of good points though and I applaud him for it. :)

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

How many god damn times do we need to remind ppl that 1rs person players are not the minority! All polls in the past indicate 3rd person players to be the minority!

You sure about that, champ? Might wanna reconsider. :P

[excursion_@hotmail.com 19]

I agree with phl0gist0n main point, the problem with 3rd person is it can be used to gain access to alternative view points.

This in turn causes players "in some combat scenarios" to have a tactical advantage.

 

I honestly believe the outcome will be a separation of server types 1st person only and 3rd/1st person. 

There is no "easy way" to fix 3rd person exploits.

The developers will likely shelve this problem until later then come back to it, currently they have more important issues to deal with.

 

Its good to see players like phl0gist0n who are actually searching for a solution rather than b*tching about the problem. 

 

Would reducing the view distance from the character help reduce the abuse of this exploit?

[big_t 66]

I'm totally happy with the "4thwall"  approach as created by Outlaw.   I would be interested in any sound reasons as to why this would not be a good idea to implement?

 

I personally believe 1rst person to be the true path to sublime immersion and godliness, yet I have patience and a profound compassion for my less learned brothers who have not yet been touched by the divine. With Outlaws' 4thwall doctrine we can learn to live together and move forward with our journeys. 

[pixieflower00 2]

I honestly prefer the 3pp because I like seeing everything around me while I am in an open space. If I hear something coming and and I am in 1pp I panic and start spinning around trying to find out where it is coming from and usually by the time I find it, it's too late. 

I honestly don't know why there is even a discussion about this. What is 3pp really hurting those that prefer 1pp? If it's not hurting you, then leave it alone. 

[svisketyggeren 662]

 

 

 

. Learn how statistics work and how to actually analyze a population's views in a statistically relevant manner and come back and post that sentence again without feeling dirty. 

 

Since no valid poll has ever been conducted (and to top it off the poll you are referencing did not even ask the preference it only asked if people would still play if 3PP was removed) lets not get bogged down in which perspective is actually in the majority. If we are going by the only non biased source which is server populations then it is clear, but even there many have pointed out the problems with using that as a source so it is not bullet proof either. 

 

 

 

And what exactly is the problem with the polls that have been conducted before on the matter of 3rd vs 1st person view? And I was not referring to a poll...but all the polls that have been done in the past. If i remember correct there was close to 100 participants on some of the polls.

[zaphodity (DayZ) 41]

I like it. Always good to have more than just one perspective I reckon.

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

And what exactly is the problem with the polls that have been conducted before on the matter of 3rd vs 1st person view? And I was not referring to a poll...but all the polls that have been done in the past. If i remember correct there was close to 100 participants on some of the polls.

100 participants in a poll? Wow! Out of nearly a million players?

I'm sure that's accurate. :P

[tommes 331]

How many god damn times do we need to remind ppl that 1rs person players are not the minority! All polls in the past indicate 3rd person players to be the minority!

Not entirely correct. Most people actually play on 3PP enabled servers. The majority just would deal with 3PP disabled if they had to.