Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

33% want to leave it as it is?

No. 17-33% want to leave it as it is.

However 35-55% want it fixed (not including the 1PP hardcores at all)

So, it might be as low as 17%, it might be as high as 33% - those margins will get tighter and zero in on a more accurate figure as the sample size increases (just checked a minute ago with 144 samples and it was at 18-32% and 35-51% respectively).

Either way, it's likely that the people wanting it fixed is gonna come out as a higher proportion than those that dont, unless the counts really change from here on...it's possible, but that's where the 95% figure comes in, I chose 95% because that's the general level chosen for meaningful statistical analysis (and it was already an option on the website I was using - doing the math manually is a pain in the arse and I haven't done it in over 10 years)

Sorry, I edited my post to 25% to better suit your "poll". Either way 25% of forum users liking 3PP left alone is substantial. I can't even fathom how many players that aren't actually complaining about it and just playing it as is. ;)

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

If only that 'poll' was actually representative of the activity on the servers.

 

How can you look at the number of 3rd person servers and determine how those players feel about the view they're using?

 

People playing on a view doesn't mean they are 100% happy with that view. Stop implying otherwise, there are plenty of posts in this thread that prove you wrong.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

So just from your numbers alone (which are fairly biased) we can see 25% want to leave 3PP just the way it is.

Now imagine how many players out of 1 million that are happily playing in 3PP that don't check the forums.

I think it's pretty obvious that the majority would gladly leave it alone with no "fix". I'm actually surprised that many forum users chose to leave 3PP as is. 25% is quite high. :)

 

25% is not the majority.

[floj 393]

Sorry, I edited my post to 25% to better suit your "poll". Either way 25% of forum users liking 3PP left alone is substantial. I can't even fathom how many players that aren't actually complaining about it and just playing it as is. ;)

Yeah I'd say 25% is about fair since it's the midpoint, that's basically just reading the poll as being 100% accurate (which it won't be) - the error margins are what you add in for it to be more meaningful in analysis :)

 

And sure, that's a lot of players, 250k of them...but then...the people that want it fixed are gonna be somewhere around 42% of the users...or 420k of them or thereaboute. At the moment they're in limbo with the two server system.

 

I guess a lot of players aren't complaining because it doesn't affect them as much as the 1PP hardcore (3PP even being in the development schedule removes resources from 1PP development) and the 3PP players that are desperate to keep their crutch. It's why I made the poll, to see the silent objectors that cant be bothered to read 160 page arguments but do have an opinion and are affected.

[Heiduk 265]

How can you look at the number of 3rd person servers and determine how those players feel about the view they're using?

 

This. There is a big difference between tolerating something and thinking it is a good thing.

 

If we are using server populations as a guide to what people consider exploits then back in the heyday of the mod nobody considered parachuting cows, thunderdome, or god mode exploits either.

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

25% is not the majority.

25% based on a poll of hardcore DayZ players that use the forums.

One could argue the ones answering the poll are the only ones who even care. Which means 999,950 players want 3PP left alone. :P

[floj 393]

Which means 999,950 players want 3PP left alone. :P

It means 999,950 don't care either way, if you want to read it like that...in which case we still have more people that do care that want it fixed than don't.

[fitzee 248]

Hi.

 

This is getting pretty silly.

 

You will never convince the people that enjoy exploiting 3PP that its bad. They obviously know it's wrong, but they won't admit it, it's akin to trying to convince a cheater not to cheat, just isn't going to happen, they will tell you some stupid crap like 'your tears sustain me' lol.

 

They typically won't even admit that seeing over that 7 foot high wall is wrong. :huh:

 

Also I seriously doubt the devteam will do anything to fix the issue.

 

But here's some :beans: for all you guys that are trying.

 

Regards.

[kiwi_laurel 24]

why does everyone consider 3pp an exploit?

it makes up for the lack of movement and vision that a game can provide.

The game does not allow you to pull yourself up a wall to peer over it.

You cannot peek around a corner in 1pp without exposing half your head, you can't even see out off a bush without majorly exposing yourself.

These are things you CAN do in real life, and 3pp view makes up for that.

It allows a certain awareness of your close surroundings, things you could usually see in your peripheral vision, like the grass at your feet, or a right beside you.

I understand alot of you think it is much more immerserve in 1pp, but please stop referring to 3pp view as an exploit, when it plainly isn't.

Until such time that a game allows you to move like a real person, 1pp view will always be less realistic then 3pp, and as such, less enjoyable.

[frosti 2165]

why does everyone consider 3pp an exploit?

it makes up for the lack of movement and vision that a game can provide.

The game does not allow you to pull yourself up a wall to peer over it.

You cannot peek around a corner in 1pp without exposing half your head, you can't even see out off a bush without majorly exposing yourself.

These are things you CAN do in real life, and 3pp view makes up for that.

It allows a certain awareness of your close surroundings, things you could usually see in your peripheral vision, like the grass at your feet, or a right beside you.

I understand alot of you think it is much more immerserve in 1pp, but please stop referring to 3pp view as an exploit, when it plainly isn't.

Until such time that a game allows you to move like a real person, 1pp view will always be less realistic then 3pp, and as such, less enjoyable.

 

You are 100% right on this but for me the dealbreaker is pvp.

 

In pvp you have to (ab)use 3rd person camera like  a boss or you get killed by people that (ab)use it better then you.

 

On 3rd person server it is also theoritically impossible to sneak up on someone from behind as he can see behind his character, and I love to sneak up on people on 1st person only servers.

 

Also 1st person only server rewards you more if you scout alot enviroment around you, so it fit  my playstyle and reward so I switched to play on 1st person servers only.

 

PS.

 

To be good at pvp on 3rd pp server then you have to be at least as good with camera as this guy:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-av1a1q0lLk

Edited January 18, 2014 by Frosti

[kiwi_laurel 24]

I can tell you from experience with entirely 3rd person only shooters, that sneaking up on someone isn't an issue.

By the time you see them they have already struck a blow to the back of your head.

And honestly you generally can't see them until they are literally touching you, which in real life you will notice, whereas in a game in 1pp you wouldn't have a clue.

[fitzee 248]

Great another guy who thinks he can peek around a corner in real life even if theres a big brick in front of his eye lol.

 

Do me a favor, stand in front of a mirror. Close one eye. Then put your hand in front of the other eye. Then "peek" around that hand till you can see yourself in the mirror. Hmm, notice how your 1/2 your head and face are exposed. sheesh.

 

In the real world you can't see anything without line of site. Guess what. If you have line of site on it, it has line of site on you. Why is that so hard to understand? O yea, it isn't, you like the rest of people that enjoy the exploit part of 3PP just don't want to admit it.

 

Notice I talk about the exploiting part, not 3PP in general, and I didn't even mention the part about using 3PP to look right through walls.

 

OMG, after saying how silly this crap is getting, I'm right here doing it too :blush:

 

Regards.

[frosti 2165]

I can tell you from experience with entirely 3rd person only shooters, that sneaking up on someone isn't an issue.

By the time you see them they have already struck a blow to the back of your head.

And honestly you generally can't see them until they are literally touching you, which in real life you will notice, whereas in a game in 1pp you wouldn't have a clue.

 

I agree with you 100%. But as for gameplay wise, can you switch to handcuffs and handcuf a guy on 3pp server when you sneak up on him from behind? Rather not if he is not afk. But on 1st person only server? oh yes.

Great another guy who thinks he can peek around a corner in real life even if theres a big brick in front of his eye lol.

 

Do me a favor, stand in front of a mirror. Close one eye. Then put your hand in front of the other eye. Then "peek" around that hand till you can see yourself in the mirror. Hmm, notice how your 1/2 your head and face are exposed. sheesh.

 

In the real world you can't see anything without line of site. Guess what. If you have line of site on it, it has line of site on you. Why is that so hard to understand? O yea, it isn't, you like the rest of people that enjoy the exploit part of 3PP just don't want to admit it.

 

Notice I talk about the exploiting part, not 3PP in general, and I didn't even mention the part about using 3PP to look right through walls.

 

OMG, after saying how silly this crap is getting, I'm right here doing it too :blush:

 

Regards.

 

You missed the point a bit.

 

3pp indeed can be perceived as exploit when you look at it from first person shooter logic perspective but 3rd person view really do compensate for all the things you can do in real life, that you can't do in game.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Frosti

[kiwi_laurel 24]

Compare how much you need to expose of your head to see around a corner in real life, too how much you need to in game, you will be surprised it how little a target you can be and still have clear vision.

Now factor in the ability to bend up and down, lie flat on the ground if you have too.

This is something that at this stage is not possible to represent realistically in a game, 3pp view is the next best alternative.

It does allow you to see around a corner without exposing yourself at all, but its much more realistic and much better gameplay then sticking out half your head and exposing yourself.

Hiding in a bush is a very good example of 1pp view being unrealistic and a nuisance.

[kiwi_laurel 24]

I agree with you 100%. But as for gameplay wise, can you switch to handcuffs and handcuf a guy on 3pp server when you sneak up on him from behind? Rather not if he is not afk. But on 1st person only server? oh yes.

 

Try sneaking up and handcuffing someone in real life...

I bet you would find the result to be closer to the 3rd person perspective of the game rather then the 1st person perspective.

Again, this is a limitation of a game, where there is no feel, no senses other then direct sight and sound. Then not to mention the required animations etc

[Max Planck 7174]

Compare how much you need to expose of your head to see around a corner in real life, too how much you need to in game, you will be surprised it how little a target you can be and still have clear vision.

 

You still have to expose yourself, even if only a little, to peek around (or over) a wall in real life.

If someone is spraying said wall with machinegun fire, you would not want to do that.

 

This is another problem with 3rdP as I see it, it makes suppression fire useless.

[kiwi_laurel 24]

Yes, but at the opposite end of the scale is 1pp view, where you can't even risk a peak because you know you are guaranteed to be shot due to exposing so much of yourself. Infact, you can generally be shot without ever being able to see around the corner.

Neither view is entirely realistic, but trying to say 1pp is the most realistic is a joke.

And suppressive fire still works as per usual, you still have to expose yourself to return fire.


No matter how you look at it this is a game, and both views have their advantages and disadvantages and trying to rule one out entirely is absurd.

Edited January 18, 2014 by kiwi_laurel

[Heiduk 265]

This is another problem with 3rdP as I see it, it makes suppression fire useless.

 

Everybody focuses on spotting, but I think the ineffectiveness of suppression is actually a much bigger problem in terms of dumbing down the PvP aspects of the game.

 

As the 3DP supporters rightly point out, in most cases the chances of detecting and surviving an ambush by a skilled opponent in a cluttered urban environment are pretty small regardless of which perspective is being used. What happens though when your attacker misses the first shot and you are able to take cover? Watch any 3DP:ON DayZ video and it is easy to see. Both sides calmly periscope from safety. The tension rapidly dissipates because it is trivial to peek out of your impenetrable hidy-hole to check if you are being flanked or the enemy is advancing. Players do not need to take any risks in order to gather information about what is happening around them and as a result neither  side is able to deny the other information by suppressing them.

 

3DP basically invalidates nearly all standard infantry tactics and makes ambushing almost the only viable strategy.

[kiwi_laurel 24]

Everybody focuses on spotting, but I think the ineffectiveness of suppression is actually a much bigger problem in terms of dumbing down the PvP aspects of the game.

 

As the 3DP supporters rightly point out, in most cases the chances of detecting and surviving an ambush by a skilled opponent in a cluttered urban environment are pretty small regardless of which perspective is being used. What happens though when your attacker misses the first shot and you are able to take cover? Watch any 3DP:ON DayZ video and it is easy to see. Both sides calmly periscope from safety. The tension rapidly dissipates because it is trivial to peek out of your impenetrable hidy-hole to check if you are being flanked or the enemy is advancing. Players do not need to take any risks in order to gather information about what is happening around them and as a result neither  side is able to deny the other information by suppressing them.

 

3DP basically invalidates nearly all standard infantry tactics and makes ambushing almost the only viable strategy.

That's bullshit.

Suppressive fire can be used to pin down an enemy as per usual, sure they may still be able to see some of their surroundings, but realistically in a real gunfight you can still slightly peak and see anyway!

Basic tactics work just the same with suppressive fire keeping an enemy pinned while someone else flanks them.

[floj 393]

Yes, but at the opposite end of the scale is 1pp view, where you can't even risk a peak because you know you are guaranteed to be shot due to exposing so much of yourself. Infact, you can generally be shot without ever being able to see around the corner.

Neither view is entirely realistic, but trying to say 1pp is the most realistic is a joke.

And suppressive fire still works as per usual, you still have to expose yourself to return fire.

No matter how you look at it this is a game, and both views have their advantages and disadvantages and trying to rule one out entirely is absurd.

"The purpose of suppression is to stop or prevent the enemy from observing, shooting, moving or carrying out other military tasks that interfere (or could interfere) with the activities of friendly forces" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppressive_fire

[Max Planck 7174]

And suppressive fire still works as per usual, you still have to expose yourself to return fire.

 

The purpose of suppression fire is not only to keep you from returning fire, but also to pin you down and keep you from maneuvering while someone else flanks you.

 

With 3rdP view you aren't pinned down, as you can easily see which area is being peppered and which isn't. You don't have to take chances, you aren't being limited in the way you are when you view the world through your eyes.

 

EDIT:

Damn you guys are fast.

 

 

That's bullshit.

Suppressive fire can be used to pin down an enemy as per usual, sure they may still be able to see some of their surroundings, but realistically in a real gunfight you can still slightly peak and see anyway!

 

You may be a lot more badass than I, but I would never poke my head around a corner that is being machinegunned at.  Certainly not for the amount of time you get when you peek with 3rd.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Max Planck

[kiwi_laurel 24]

As per my last post...

[Skinup69 24]

Your talking like this is a army game IT'S NOT.

Plus when full zombies are in the game good luck with that..btw ill cut my balls off if 3rd gets changed because I know it won't.

This game is getting ruined by army wannabes, go play arma2/3 and ull be able to mayb kill some people.

Btw has that pole reached 1% of the DayZ player base yet?

Oh and that video on reddit was very basic first person gaming knowledge.

If DayZ was PVP 100% of the time I would play in 1st person, just like any other FPS.

Everybody focuses on spotting, but I think the ineffectiveness of suppression is actually a much bigger problem in terms of dumbing down the PvP aspects of the game.

As the 3DP supporters rightly point out, in most cases the chances of detecting and surviving an ambush by a skilled opponent in a cluttered urban environment are pretty small regardless of which perspective is being used. What happens though when your attacker misses the first shot and you are able to take cover? Watch any 3DP:ON DayZ video and it is easy to see. Both sides calmly periscope from safety. The tension rapidly dissipates because it is trivial to peek out of your impenetrable hidy-hole to check if you are being flanked or the enemy is advancing. Players do not need to take any risks in order to gather information about what is happening around them and as a result neither side is able to deny the other information by suppressing them.

3DP basically invalidates nearly all standard infantry tactics and makes ambushing almost the only viable strategy.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Skinup69

[Max Planck 7174]

Your talking like this is a army game IT'S NOT.

Plus when full zombies are in the game good luck with that..btw ill cut my balls off if 3rd gets changed because I know it won't.

This game is getting ruined by army wannabes, go play arma2/3 and ull be able to mayb kill some people.

Btw has that pole reached 1% of the DayZ player base yet?

Oh and that video on reddit was very basic first person gaming knowledge.

If DayZ was PVP 100% of the time I would play in 1st person, just like any other FPS.

 

 

You haven't countered, or even touched upon, any of his arguments. All you did there was declare people who disagree with you 'army wannabees' and tell them to play other games.

You are not being part of this debate, you are standing at the side yelling at the people who are.

 

As for DayZ not being an army game, you are right. It is not an army game. It is, however, attempting to be authentic. Therefore, real world tactics should be viable.

Edited January 18, 2014 by Max Planck

[kiwi_laurel 24]

Yea not too sure what Skinup was trying to say lol.


The way it is at the moment works, having separate dedicated 1pp servers is really the best way, it changes the way you play the game, and we essentially end up with 2 games for the price of 1