Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

And round and round we go... this needs proper poll of opinions to end the drama, not someone relying on pvp-centric points of view or elitism over which pov is better or worse.

I play 1PP and will never use 3PP.

I play 1PP but would use 3PP if the exploit was fixed.

I play 3PP and want the exploit fixed.

I play 3PP and think it should stay as it is.

Anything else people want in there before I make it?

Keep it simple:

I prefer to play mostly 1PP

I prefer to play mostly 3PP

[floj 393]

Keep it simple:

I prefer to play mostly 1PP

I prefer to play mostly 3PP

Too late sorry!

 

But also that misses out the portion of players that like 3PP but don't like the exploit, which was a fault of all the previous polls I saw on the matter - so far about a third of the playerbase isn't diehard 1 or 3PP and just wants it balanced so that they can play together (early days, only 20 votes so far)

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

There are two viable solutions in this thread that remove the 3PP exploit without forcing any play style or perspective change on anyone. They are;

"Fourth Wall" - Hide players/zombies outside of 1PP view even when using 3PP

Change Camera Axis - Move the camera about the camera's axis rather than that of the player's head (Follow-up post 1 - Follow-up post 2)

What would be far more constructive for this thread would be if people could decide which they would prefer. Or is that too difficult, Internet?

EDIT: Fix borked links

First option: 4th Wall

Terrible idea. Looks ridiculous

Second option: Camera replacement

Not as bad. But still looks stupid.

Sorry :(

[floj 393]

Heh it's fine, I personally can understand the issues people have with the 4th wall, because it's just a mod of a mod demonstration. I do believe that implemented differently using fog of war or a coloured overlay to clearly show what is and isn't directly visible might improve it. Failing that then a much tighter camera angle would ameliorate the issues a lot as well.

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

First option: 4th Wall

Terrible idea. Looks ridiculous

Second option: Camera replacement

Not as bad. But still looks stupid.

Sorry :(

I also don't like the way characters 'pop' into view when using 4th Wall so I'd prefer the fix to involve changes to the camera position and/or behaviour.

My suggestion might look odd and confuse people whilst stationary as it'll behave differently to when the character is on the move (it might also be a total shit to code), but it at least still allows 3PP users to see their character, which is one thing that is mentioned quite a bit as a good thing. An alternative, as suggested by others, is to have the camera closer to the back of the player's head/looking over their shoulder. Whilst this is likely to be far easier to implement and may look better (in terms of actual movement), it prevents player's seeing their character.

Perhaps both could be implemented with a menu option available to change camera behaviour? This way, people can select based on their preference rather than having to use/tolerate/hate whatever option is implemented. Obviously, this would be the harderst to implement as it would involve a lot more coding to get both options in, but it would certainly appease the largest proportion of players.

It'd be nice if Rocket (or someone else from the Dev team) pitched up to add their thoughts to this thread...

[floj 393]

The pop in might be less bad if it was a gradual fade in/out perhaps? I think Project Zomboid does this quite nicely for a 3PP zombie game, maybe DayZ should have the whole out of view fog of war as well:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4iMO9BpGkQ

Edited January 17, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[Ken Bean 175]

Project Zomboid has another graphical level.

Having such mechanics doesn't desturb that much in this case. Whatever works for one game doesn't necessarily need to work for another.

I don't like it in the SA.

Edited January 17, 2014 by Ken Bean

[floj 393]

OK I was just waiting for the first milestone from the poll and we just passed 100 votes, a small number for a population size of 1 million, but you can still start to draw some analysis of the results.

 

Raw Data

- 2/100 abstain from the issue.

- 28/100 want to play 1PP and don't care at all about 3PP. (A)

- 70/100 want to play 3PP. (B+C+D)

- 45/100 want to play 3PP without the exploit. (B+C)

- 25/100 want to play 3PP with the exploit. (D)

 

So with some statistical mumbo jumbo we can say, with 95% confidence that:

 

Upto 5% of the overall playerbase will abstain from the issue.

Between 20 and 36% of the overall playerbase want to play 1PP and don't care at all about 3PP.

Between 62 and 78% of the overall playerbase want to play 3PP

Between 35 and 55% of the overall playerbase want to play 3PP without the exploit

Between 17 and 33% of the overall playerbase want to play 3PP with the exploit

 

It's still pretty loose with only a sample size of 100, but I'm sorry to the people that want to keep this exploit, so far, you are clearly the minority of the potential 3PP playerbase.

 

25:45 against.

 

Now I can't rephrase the poll now without making everyone vote again, but I think we can safely assume that the 1PP diehards would want it removed as well, which makes it a staggering 25:73 against.

 

As for part B of the poll, I just did that for lols really, it's upto Rocket what he wants to do, but any new ideas would be welcome too I'm sure :D

Edited January 18, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[dsi24 227]

Didn't see this in the OP and figured it was relevant, a comment on why the 4th wall (or other LoS based mechanics) aren't feasible for DayZ by one of the designers. Sadly that's really the only option that keeps third person and gets rid of the exploitability of third person, guess we can't have our cake and eat it too.

[floj 393]

Ah shame I'm not a redditor...but yeah I had considered the idea of visual fracturing...probably in pages 1-5 of this thread where most of the progressive ideas were lol

 

Can't remember if I mentioned the idea I had as a fix for it though, which would be a 1-2 second delay between losing LOS and the entity fading out.

This works in two fashions to aid the player: The delay prevents undue fracturing when running through trees or items which only obscure the player for a short time and the fade provides a clear signal to the player that this disappearance is due to LOS and not because of desync/teleporting.

 

EDIT: The main reason I made the poll was to highlight the silent B's and C's because one of the crux's that the exploit people were advocating was '3PP servers are full, everything is fine, if you don't like it, go play 1PP, everyone who plays 3PP is on our side' But of the people already playing in 3PP servers, half of them want the exploit gone and there are even more players that'd play 3PP if the exploit wasn't there.

 

Personally I'd like a 3PP view in hardcore, but with no entities ever visible on your screen whilst in 3PP - basically allow it for checking your camo. any wound directions and for occasionally enjoying a nice vista from the extra 6ft up....oh and disabled whilst in vehicles ofc :)

Edited January 18, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[Judopunch 523]

Separate servers is probably the best. LOS becomes server hungry and un-intuitive. Just play world of tanks for about five minutes if you want an example.

 

I personally love 1st person.

[tommes 331]

Maybe it's better development wise to concentrate on making the 1PP experience better first. More players might jump over the fence to the 1PP only servers. Maybe the seperate, more hardcore, hive makes them not move back. As long as there are enough populated servers everything is fine. Maybe even better than to have to play with the 3PP only guys. We could alse keep our elitism. It's always nice to have something to feel better about oneself. :)

Edited January 18, 2014 by tommes

[tommes 331]

Separate servers is probably the best. LOS becomes server hungry and un-intuitive. Just play world of tanks for about five minutes if you want an example.

 

I personally love 1st person.

We had that covered by adding a visual indicator to make clear you are in a special viewmode and not actually seeing whats going on in certain parts of the screen like blurring them. Could also make up for the clipping of the models.

[dirby12 33]

I'll just repost this here too, if its ok. I think it's the best example of a fix for the TPV exploit yet: Relevant part about 14mins in

 

 

thats seems pretty nice to me

[Ken Bean 175]

Maybe it's better development wise to concentrate on making the 1PP experience better first. More players might jump over the fence to the 1PP only servers. Maybe the seperate, more hardcore, hive makes them not move back. As long as there are enough populated servers everything is fine. Maybe even better than to have to play with the 3PP only guys. We could alse keep our elitism. It's always nice to have something to feel better about oneself. :)

Never expected to say this, but have my beans.

[Jamz 253]

OK I was just waiting for the first milestone from the poll and we just passed 100 votes, a small number for a population size of 1 million, but you can still start to draw some analysis of the results.

 

Raw Data

- 2/100 abstain from the issue.

- 28/100 want to play 1PP and don't care at all about 3PP. (A)

- 70/100 want to play 3PP. (B+C+D)

- 45/100 want to play 3PP without the exploit. (B+C)

- 25/100 want to play 3PP with the exploit. (D)

 

So with some statistical mumbo jumbo we can say, with 95% confidence that:

 

Upto 5% of the overall playerbase will abstain from the issue.

Between 20 and 36% of the overall playerbase want to play 1PP and don't care at all about 3PP.

Between 62 and 78% of the overall playerbase want to play 3PP

Between 35 and 55% of the overall playerbase want to play 3PP without the exploit

Between 17 and 33% of the overall playerbase want to play 3PP with the exploit

 

It's still pretty loose with only a sample size of 100, but I'm sorry to the people that want to keep this exploit, so far, you are clearly the minority of the potential 3PP playerbase.

 

25:45 against.

 

Now I can't rephrase the poll now without making everyone vote again, but I think we can safely assume that the 1PP diehards would want it removed as well, which makes it a staggering 25:73 against.

 

As for part B of the poll, I just did that for lols really, it's upto Rocket what he wants to do, but any new ideas would be welcome too I'm sure :D

 

I think there are a couple of issues with that poll though. For a start there was no option for people who are perfectly happy if the views are split to two different hives. I think this is ultimately the best idea, especially as I expect the majority of players would have a character on both hives.

Also, any polls created on here are only available to about 16% of the total playerbase and that 16% are the players who play DayZ the most often/ as a primary game. I'd be willing to bet that a far larger proportion of stalwart first person players are registered forum users than third person players relative to the total player base, so the control group is not as random as it should be. I think it shows that most people want to see any exploit addressed but that is all.

 

Maybe another vote could be cast if the hives are split, to see if players still think it needs to be addressed?

Edited January 18, 2014 by Jamz

[floj 393]

I think there are a couple of issues with that poll though. For a start there was no option for people who are perfectly happy if the views are split to two different hives. I think this is ultimately the best idea, especially as I expect the majority of players would have a character on both hives.

Also, any polls created on here are only available to about 16% of the total playerbase and that 16% are the players who play DayZ the most often/ as a primary game. I'd be willing to bet that a far larger proportion of stalwart first person players are registered forum users than third person players relative to the total player base, so the control group is not as random as it should be. I think it shows that most people want to see any exploit addressed but that is all.

 

Maybe another vote could be cast if the hives are split, to see if players still think it needs to be addressed?

Even with the separate server solution, the majority of 3PP players want the exploit gone. B+C > D.

 

EDIT: I missed the second part of your statement - but even disregarding the current 1PP groups (A+B) it still shows an almost 50/50 split within the 3PP community as to whether the exploit should be allowed or not - and you still have the fact that group B would also play 3PP if it was removed.

Edited January 18, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[dallas 5195]

So when did we all agree that 3PP is an exploit?

[floj 393]

When the majority said they didn't want it in the game maybe?

[Jamz 253]

3PP isn't an exploit, but in it's current form it's exploitable I would say.

[dallas 5195]

When the majority said they didn't want it in the game maybe?

Yes in your tiny pole maybe, but the majority playing on the servers apparently clearly disagree.

[floj 393]

3PP isn't an exploit, but in it's current form it's exploitable I would say.

Completely correct, 3PP itself isn't an exploit, but it has an exploitable feature.

 

Yes in your tiny pole maybe, but the majority playing on the servers apparently clearly disagree.

Firstly, 'poll'

 

Secondly, as the 'poll' results show, over half the players on 3PP servers don't want the exploit. Your argument to keep the exploit because of popularity on 3PP servers is void.

 

Also regarding the adjective 'tiny' it had 95% confidence (basic research level) at the levels calculated when there were 100 votes (and as more votes come in it's getting stronger and stronger). Lrn 2 statistic.

 

Nice try

[WrecklessMEDIC 129]

OK I was just waiting for the first milestone from the poll and we just passed 100 votes, a small number for a population size of 1 million, but you can still start to draw some analysis of the results.

Raw Data

- 2/100 abstain from the issue.

- 28/100 want to play 1PP and don't care at all about 3PP. (A)

- 70/100 want to play 3PP. (B+C+D)

- 45/100 want to play 3PP without the exploit. (B+C)

- 25/100 want to play 3PP with the exploit. (D)

So with some statistical mumbo jumbo we can say, with 95% confidence that:

Upto 5% of the overall playerbase will abstain from the issue.

Between 20 and 36% of the overall playerbase want to play 1PP and don't care at all about 3PP.

Between 62 and 78% of the overall playerbase want to play 3PP

Between 35 and 55% of the overall playerbase want to play 3PP without the exploit

Between 17 and 33% of the overall playerbase want to play 3PP with the exploit

It's still pretty loose with only a sample size of 100, but I'm sorry to the people that want to keep this exploit, so far, you are clearly the minority of the potential 3PP playerbase.

25:45 against.

Now I can't rephrase the poll now without making everyone vote again, but I think we can safely assume that the 1PP diehards would want it removed as well, which makes it a staggering 25:73 against.

As for part B of the poll, I just did that for lols really, it's upto Rocket what he wants to do, but any new ideas would be welcome too I'm sure :D

So just from your numbers alone (which are fairly biased) we can see 25% want to leave 3PP just the way it is.

Now imagine how many players out of 1 million that are happily playing in 3PP that don't check the forums.

I think it's pretty obvious that the majority would gladly leave it alone with no "fix". I'm actually surprised that many forum users chose to leave 3PP as is. 25% is quite high. :)

Edited January 18, 2014 by WrecklessMEDIC

[floj 393]

33% want to leave it as it is?

 

No. 17-33% want to leave it as it is.

However 35-55% want it fixed (not including the 1PP hardcores at all)

 

So, it might be as low as 17%, it might be as high as 33% - those margins will get tighter and zero in on a more accurate figure as the sample size increases (just checked a minute ago with 144 samples and it was at 18-32% and 35-51% respectively).

 

Either way, it's likely that the people wanting it fixed is gonna come out as a higher proportion than those that dont, unless the counts really change from here on...it's possible, but that's where the 95% figure comes in, I chose 95% because that's the general level chosen for meaningful statistical analysis (and it was already an option on the website I was using - doing the math manually is a pain in the arse and I haven't done it in over 10 years)

Edited January 18, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[dallas 5195]

If only that 'poll' was actually representative of the activity on the servers.