Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[tommes 331]

...they want pvp to be fair and just.

I would't call combat with 3PP unfair and unjust. It is simply common sense breaking and therefore ridiculous. And it favors the use of lame tactics. That's basically all to it. We should keep emphasizing that and leave all the crappy argumenting for the other side to make.

[tommes 331]

He makes a lot of good points though and I applaud him for it. :)

You think his points are good because they're the same as yours. But compensating the shortcomings of FPV with a magical floating camera 10 feet up and behind is like compensating for missing logic with magic...or religion.

[tommes 331]

Its good to see players like phl0gist0n who are actually searching for a solution rather than b*tching about the problem.

We had a pretty good solution back then in September. It's really effective in eliminating all the exploits, doesn't use computing ressources and absolutely no development time. It's switch 3PP off. Even Ken Bean said it's no problem playing 1PP only.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Polls in favor of removal:

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=5220c5f8e4b09938befb2ec1 4817 votes

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1pZqrOkddl42aICeOf7EBAGqAwEHgLwbiYJlIJj2Sil4/viewanalytics 625 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/146017-first-vs-third-person-poll-post-your-vote-here-after-reading-dslyecxi-video-discussion/ 136 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/146649-poll-dayz-sa-1st-person-only/ 154 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/146501-do-you-play-on-first-or-third-person-servers/ 84 votes

 

 

Polls in favor of keeping third person:

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/50120-ultimate-server-settings-poll-what-should-go-and-what-shouldnt/?mode=show 203 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/99959-third-person-and-first-person-you-decide/?mode=show 76 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/62544-whats-your-ideal-server/?mode=show 70 votes

http://poll.pollcode.com/cbwcar_result?v 64 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157818-poll-should-dayz-be-only-1st-person-or-1st-3rd-person-view/ 24 votes

[tommes 331]

I honestly prefer the 3pp because I like seeing everything around me while I am in an open space. If I hear something coming and and I am in 1pp I panic and start spinning around trying to find out where it is coming from and usually by the time I find it, it's too late. 

I honestly don't know why there is even a discussion about this. What is 3pp really hurting those that prefer 1pp? If it's not hurting you, then leave it alone.

I don't get why navigating in 1PP appears to be so difficult for many people. You do that all your life. Ok, in video games you have to compensate some stuff but that's only a matter of getting used to it. A lot of people have done that already. So don't be late to the party!

This discussion is up and running...and running...because 3PP actually hurts the 1PP only crowd unless we can achieve a critical mass in players not compromising for 3PP enabled servers because of their friends or unpopulated servers. Most players currently aren't aware of the issues in gameplay risen by the existence of 3PP and therefore don't care. Through these discussions more and more people wake up and swing to the 1PP only side...or at least to "I'd play 1PP only, if I had to".

[gibonez 3633]

Well whatever they decide to do it should be priority #1.

 

Watch any gameplay video and it ends up being like this video. Players using exploits to remain invisible why completely seeing other players.

[svisketyggeren 662]

100 participants in a poll? Wow! Out of nearly a million players?

I'm sure that's accurate. :P

 

A sample of 100 persons is enough to model a population of 1 million with a 10% error margin....my background is two statistics courses at university level, and I use statistics every day in my studies. Most ppl are not aware of this, but u dont need a large sample size to say something statistically significant about a large population.

Edited January 14, 2014 by svisketyggeren

[svisketyggeren 662]

Not entirely correct. Most people actually play on 3PP enabled servers. The majority just would deal with 3PP disabled if they had to.

Thats  not what im saying...what was revelead by the polls what in fact that the majority preferred 1st person servers...but the majority of server admins enabled 3rd and 1st person trying to cater to all players. Which left those preferring 1st person only to play on servers with both 3rd and 1st enabled. At times there was literally 1-3 1st person servers to choose from...if the ping was to high, u where out of luck.

U are talking about what type of server ppl play on, im talking about what ppl actually prefer if they could choose.

 

Anyhow...the 3rd person advocates need to get rid of the illusion that they are a clear majority.

Edited January 14, 2014 by svisketyggeren

[Agony (DayZ) 1]

I think 3p is great for 75% of what you do in the game which is playing hiking simulator SA 2014, where it is just more comfortable to play in 3p rather than 1p.

I do agree however that combat in 3p is toxic. There are 3 issues:

 

1. Wall peeking, window peeking, etc in short near no risk looking.
2. Prone 3p view (especially if people camp), I think this is annoying because it makes camping too easy.
3. Too much *easy* vision around you, 3p camera is too flexible.

 

I think these 3 issues just make up what should be fixed about 3p, the rest in general is fine.

1p suffers from problems differ per individual (motion sickness/headaches the most whether or not it can really be fixed with settings).

 

phlogiston has some good suggestions especially the 4^th wall, looks to fix the first Issue I mentioned. Also he doesn’t behave like a 1p elitist, who treats 1p as the only religion there is.

Either way both 1p and 3p are far from being perfect and should be improved, but I am not pro removal of 3p. I like both to exist and there to be choice and eventually a glorious dayz SA version with near perfect 1p. 

Edited January 14, 2014 by Agony

[tommes 331]

U are talking about what type of server ppl play on, im talking about what ppl actually prefer if they could choose.

If they'd actually chosen to go on 1PP only servers there'd be no problem to discuss here.

That's the one good argument the 3PP crowd is making. If we'd actually populate the 3PP:off servers, there'd be no problem anymore. But in fact...not in poll...players chose to leave them relatively abandoned.

[lDeel 26]

Well whatever they decide to do it should be priority #1.

 

Watch any gameplay video and it ends up being like this video. Players using exploits to remain invisible why completely seeing other players.

In PvP game like this it is a major issue. As demonstrated in the video.  :thumbsup: ( I am in favor of separate hives or using the line of sight on third person servers as demonstrated in previously posted video: http://youtu.be/g0fWg1UkGP8?t=15m38s )

Edited January 14, 2014 by lDeel

[svisketyggeren 662]

If they'd actually chosen to go on 1PP only servers there'd be no problem to discuss here.

That's the one good argument the 3PP crowd is making. If we'd actually populate the 3PP:off servers, there'd be no problem anymore. But in fact...not in poll...players chose to leave them relatively abandoned.

I though I said it pretty clear above...there was to few 1st person servers because the admins enabled both 1st and 3rd to cater to everyone. In my case there was usually 1 or 2 1st person servers to choose from...so there wasnt much choice. The only thing the polls showed was that a majority wanted to play on 1st person only servers if they could choose....how u wanna interpret that is up to u, but to me its pretty clear.

 

Also remember that im speaking of the mod now. As for the standalone I see much more 1st person servers now...and there is no shortage of players on them. My guess is that the polls in the past (dayz mod) showed the server admins that alot of players want 1st exclusively.

[Thoric 2]

I'm all for the LOS solution. I love first person, but not everyone I may play with does and I also like being able to pop out and look at my character occasionally. The best thing about it is it would make 1PP and 3PP able to play together fairly and prevent division in the playerbase.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Thoric

[tommes 331]

I though I said it pretty clear above...there was to few 1st person servers...

Egg or hen?

...because the admins enabled both 1st and 3rd to cater to everyone. In my case there was usually 1 or 2 1st person servers to choose from...so there wasnt much choice. The only thing the polls showed was that a majority wanted to play on 1st person only servers if they could choose....how u wanna interpret that is up to u, but to me its pretty clear.

There was some choice. Then it was gone. For example, DayZero had a couple of 1PP only servers out there. A couple of weeks later they were gone. Don't know the reason, but I guess players went somewhere else.

 

Also remember that im speaking of the mod now. As for the standalone I see much more 1st person servers now...and there is no shortage of players on them. My guess is that the polls in the past (dayz mod) showed the server admins that alot of players want 1st exclusively.

Hopefully more players will go that path. If the polls are right there should be enough players to populate enough servers.

[Ken Bean 175]

Polls in favor of removal:

http://www.easypolls.net/poll.html?p=5220c5f8e4b09938befb2ec1 4817 votes

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1pZqrOkddl42aICeOf7EBAGqAwEHgLwbiYJlIJj2Sil4/viewanalytics 625 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/146017-first-vs-third-person-poll-post-your-vote-here-after-reading-dslyecxi-video-discussion/ 136 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/146649-poll-dayz-sa-1st-person-only/ 154 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/146501-do-you-play-on-first-or-third-person-servers/ 84 votes

 

 

Polls in favor of keeping third person:

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/50120-ultimate-server-settings-poll-what-should-go-and-what-shouldnt/?mode=show 203 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/99959-third-person-and-first-person-you-decide/?mode=show 76 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/62544-whats-your-ideal-server/?mode=show 70 votes

http://poll.pollcode.com/cbwcar_result?v 64 votes

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/157818-poll-should-dayz-be-only-1st-person-or-1st-3rd-person-view/ 24 votes

Those polls are useless. Only thing that counts is what server folks joins most.

[Zombie Jesus 723]

And what exactly is the problem with the polls that have been conducted before on the matter of 3rd vs 1st person view? And I was not referring to a poll...but all the polls that have been done in the past. If i remember correct there was close to 100 participants on some of the polls.

 

Maybe you have never taken a statistics course (apparently you have, your professor would be ashamed to see you defend these sources) but even 1000 participants in that type of poll is massively flawed. Lets start with the obvious that many of the polls have biased questions or introductions from the start. Then you have to consider where the poll is being offered. But the main reason the poll is 100% useless as a barometer for DayZ players is the fact that it was a voluntary poll on a forum. To get a real idea of what the actual preference was you would have to randomly sample players of the game using a non biased questionnaire, not offer a voluntary poll on a forum. Then you would have to ask the actual question of preference, not some stupid question like "would you continue playing if 3PP was taken out of the game." If you ask that question you are getting the answer to a completely separate question and can make no inferences on the player bases preferences. 

[jbroge 30]

There's no problem with 3rd person every one has access to it, the game is balanced. <_<

[Ken Bean 175]

Well whatever they decide to do it should be priority #1.

 

Watch any gameplay video and it ends up being like this video. Players using exploits to remain invisible why completely seeing other players.

Just proofes that standing freely around might be deadly. Easy prey, they were.

If you ask me, this also could have been a sniper.

3rd person is not an excuse for exposing yourself in a dump way.

The fail was on them.

==> Shooting around, attracing attention, standing around without cover, not watching the environment. ==> This is just as pointless as the other complains about 3rd person.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Ken Bean

[tommes 331]

There's no problem with 3rd person every one has access to it, the game is balanced. <_<

Depending on the situation only one party has the benefit.

But it is not a balancing issue. Let's assume magic spells would be implemented in DayZ. Would be balanced...and ridiculous. Depending on the spells and the situation overall and combat behaviour would change quite dramatically to something not even remotely realistic.

Well...one magic spell is already included in present DayZ...the magical floating eye...

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Those polls are useless. Only thing that counts is what server folks joins most.

 

That would only be a valid assumption if every region in the world had an abundance of populated third person and first person servers at all times. When there's 5 options(low ping, high population) for third person, but none for first, you can't expect to gather any useful data looking at the numbers. Peoples "votes" will be swayed by availability.

[DKR 104]

I could have swore this had been addressed by Rocket himself. 3rd person is not unrealistic from a FOV point of view.

First person IS unrealistic. Humans don't have a FOV of 65 or 85. They have 180. Third person helps alleviate the difference between unrealistic, narrow FOV and real world FOV.

Being able to see OVER things is really the only issue at the end of the day, IMO.

It's in there for that specific reason, as stated by Rocket in a live stream Q&A session. Since the roots of DayZ came from a military simulator, its perfectly understandable to include 3rd person functionality to make up for our inaccurate, unrealistic history of FOV in games.

Edited January 14, 2014 by DKR

[Monkfish (DayZ) 339]

Those polls are useless. Only thing that counts is what server folks joins most.

Not really if there's a lack of 1PP servers about. If 90%* of the servers are 3PP:ON then it's not a fair representation of what players want to use login stats for the server types. This is because the 10%* of the servers that are 3PP:OFF would be full pretty quickly, leaving only 3PP:ON as the option to play on.

 

Anyway, I've not read the entire thread, but I watched the video in the OP and the points made there certainly compel me to play 1PP. Currently, I play 3PP outside (I prefer the slightly increased amount I can see in the periphery) and 1PP inside (because 3PP sucks inside). Having watched the video, I'm now likely to play on 1PP only servers if I can find them.

 

Having said that, the LoS solution for 3PP looks like it could be the solution that suits everyone. I'm not much of a fan of the way the characters just appear and disappear but there probably isn't much that can be done about that.

EDIT:

Being able to see OVER things is really the only issue at the end of the day, IMO.

Then perhaps another solution would be to pan the camera about its axis rather than about the axis of the player. Currently, when panning, the movement is centred around the player, who stays centred on screen, allowing you to see around/over stuff. If the camera moved about its own axis (i.e. the player does NOT stay centred on screen) then this would prevent people being able to see around corners.

Therefore, looking left would mean that the camera would pan left about its own axis and the player would move to the right of the screen. Only once the player is at the right edge of the screen would the view begin to pan around the axis of the player. I feel diagrams would help with this but I do not have the time to make some. I'll do this later if the suggestion is not clear using words.

Edited January 14, 2014 by Monkfish

[tommes 331]

I could have swore this had been addressed by Rocket himself. 3rd person is not unrealistic from a FOV point of view.

FOV is one thing. 3PP another.

First person IS unrealistic. Humans don't have a FOV of 65 or 85. They have 180.

It is almost 180° where most of it is peripheral.

Third person helps alleviate the difference between unrealistic, narrow FOV and real world FOV.

It does that in a totally unrealistic manner.

Being able to see OVER things is really the only issue at the end of the day, IMO.

Over, around, through...without having to expose oneself.

It's in there for that specific reason, as stated by Rocket in a live stream Q&A session. Since the roots of DayZ came from a military simulator, its perfectly understandable to include 3rd person functionality to make up for our inaccurate, unrealistic history of FOV in games.

As said many times before 3PP is a crutch, a quick & dirty fix to get around the shortcomings of present technology, that arises some problems in itself. Many of us consider these 3PP made problems as the bigger ones.

[DKR 104]

Not really if there's a lack of 1PP servers about. If 90%* of the servers are 3PP:ON then it's not a fair representation of what players want to use login stats for the server types. This is because the 10%* of the servers that are 3PP:OFF would be full pretty quickly, leaving only 3PP:ON as the option to play on.

Anyway, I've not read the entire thread, but I watched the video in the OP and the points made there certainly compel me to play 1PP. Currently, I play 3PP outside (I prefer the slightly increased amount I can see in the periphery) and 1PP inside (because 3PP sucks inside). Having watched the video, I'm now likely to play on 1PP only servers if I can find them.

Having said that, the LoS solution for 3PP looks like it could be the solution that suits everyone. I'm not much of a fan of the way the characters just appear and disappear but there probably isn't much that can be done about that.

EDIT:

Then perhaps another solution would be to pan the camera about its axis rather than about the axis of the player. Currently, when panning, the movement is centred around the player, who stays centred on screen, allowing you to see around/over stuff. If the camera moved about its own axis (i.e. the player does NOT stay centred on screen) then this would prevent people being able to see around corners.

Therefore, looking left would mean that the camera would pan left about its own axis and the player would move to the right of the screen. Only once the player is at the right edge of the screen would the view begin to pan around the axis of the player. I feel diagrams would help with this but I do not have the time to make some. I'll do this later if the suggestion is not clear using words.

This is a perfect solution to 3PP in dayz. Great idea. Simply reconfiguring how the camera works should improve its authenticity.

To others, yes, you can do things with 3P that is pretty cheap. I can do things in the SA with 3PP that I couldn't do in the mod, mainly looking through things. It's alpha.

Fix the camera behavior and all will be good. They're not going to remove it though.

[Benlandia 73]

Great to see Dslyecxi getting some attention on here. He makes a fine argument.

 

To me, it really boils down to your preference. I exclusively play on 1st person server now because i'm used to it. It forces you to be a bit more careful and has more risks involved. Zombies are also more of a threat.

 

If you want to play third person, then that's fine by me. Your choice.

 

Also, the argument for motion sickness is kind of ridiculous. If after turning head bob off you get sick from playing this game then any other first person shooter must do the same thing and perhaps video games aren't for you. Let's stop using this as an excuse for why you "can't" play first person.