Fix (not remove) Third Person Perspective

[lipemr 160]

i'm all for the implementation of this mechanic.

 

People are saying that this is confusing just cause they're used to the exploit. You can see the terrain, you can see the objects, you just cant see if there's someone or a zombie behind that wall.

 

Perfect.

 

Put it on and we'll reduce the 3pv venerators arguments to nothing.

[Ghostflux 100]

i'm all for the implementation of this mechanic.

 

People are saying that this is confusing just cause they're used to the exploit. You can see the terrain, you can see the objects, you just cant see if there's someone or a zombie behind that wall.

 

Perfect.

 

Put it on and we'll reduce the 3pv venerators arguments to nothing.

 

Please don't speak for other people.

It's not because we are used to an "exploit". It's not an exploit to begin with, it's simply an unwanted feature.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Ghostflux

[floj 393]

Please don't speak for other people.

It's not because we are used to an "exploit". It's not an exploit to begin with, it's simply an unwanted feature.

 

but you are used to it? And don't want to lose it for nostalgia/not having to learn to cope without it? Or because it should be in the game because it affects the game design in a positive way? (lol)

[vandal gab 1384]

If you don't like the 3pp then just play 1pp only servers it's simple. I don't understand this whole debate on this subject when there is a clear and fair solution already in place.

Edited January 7, 2014 by vandal gab

[thag 10]

If you want first person only. Wait for first person only servers and play game. I don't want to play this game on first person cuz i don't care about realism i prefer playing with 3rd person, its good in many ways when you use it. I like some realistic elements, but i hope they will not overstate that.

 

Remember this - This is still game not real life. You cannot want game to be 100% real. Many people still don't understand it.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

These threads are completely redundant since the patch that allowed first-person servers.

[floj 393]

If you don't like the 3pp then just play 1pp only servers it's simple. I don't understand this whole debate on this subject when there is a clear and fair solution already in place.

 

If you want first person only. Wait for first person only servers and play game

These threads are completely redundant since the patch that allowed first-person servers.

 

Read OP, then comment.

 

Screws up balancing/immersion and divides playerbase. Results in subpar gameplay for all. It's killing the intended gameplay/immersion of the lead dev "I want to remove...3rd person" (source: http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/16p21g/overview_of_rockets_ama_from_today/).

 

Not a good solution in other words, fine for now in the alpha, but as things progress it will screw up the design.

 

Obviously after the last thread, we can't just remove third person as Rocket has realised...so why not implement the LOS mechanic to remove the exploit that's breaking the game design and feeling? Why is everyone so opposed to this? I haven't heard a single good reason. Just diversionary attempts: 'Go play 1PP only' (which I do already)

 

To me that sounds the same as saying I want to look around walls in a survival horror game, which as I posted above, kills the intended gameplay.

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

Screws up balancing/immersion

 

and divides playerbase

 

I don't agree that it screws up balancing or immersion.

 

The player base is already divided (day/night servers, region/ping).

[KeyaKev 12]

I don't like first person so first person should be removed © someone in other thread.

 

You all probably use brightness/gamma glitch, 3PP and so on but when you die to someone who has an advantage over you, you will cry about it because it's "unfair".

Edited January 7, 2014 by KeyaKev

[floj 393]

I don't agree that it screws up balancing or immersion.

 

The player base is already divided (day/night servers, region/ping).

Did you read OP and consider what I said already?

 

It affects how you move around the map, specifically in terms of safety and speed. This affects all other factors that will be balanced when the product reaches Beta (hunger/thirst/loot distribution/zombie AI and health).

 

And have you considered how boring other survival horror games would be if you could see exactly what's around the next corner at no risk to yourself? Thought not.

 

Please give reasons for your argument. I've backed up mine numerous times in numerous ways and with examples for comparison.

 

EDIT: I agree about day/night as well...personally I think there should be fixed day/night cycles at something like 20 hour loops, so every day you're slightly more advanced in the cycle than the day before...but no point implementing this without fixing the gamma/brightness issues. Ping is ping is the same with every game. I'm trying to prevent unnecessary fracturing of the community and keep the design to be experienced as intended.

Edited January 7, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[DarkwaveDomina 1099]

It affects how you move around the map, specifically in terms of safety and speed. This affects all other factors that will be balanced when the product reaches Beta (hunger/thirst/loot distribution/zombie AI and health).

 

It works the same for all players, It is balanced.

 

And have you considered how boring other survival horror games would be if you could see exactly what's around the next corner at no risk to yourself? Thought not.

 

Use first-person servers then, you just solved your problem. I used to only use third-person, because I didn't want to gimp myself by using first-person on a server where people used third-person all the time, but now I use first-person servers because everyone on one is on a level playing field.

 

Please give reasons for your argument. I've backed up mine numerous times in numerous ways and with examples for comparison.

 

I can't say I've seen a single killer argument for why first-person servers doesn't solve your problems.

 

 

 

EDIT: I agree about day/night as well...personally I think there should be fixed day/night cycles at something like 20 hour loops, so every day you're slightly more advanced in the cycle than the day before...but no point implementing this without fixing the gamma/brightness issues. Ping is ping is the same with every game. I'm trying to prevent unnecessary fracturing of the community.

 

No you want to remove choice. Adding options is better than removing choice, the community is already divided along many axis this is called choice not "fracturing".

 

We have day/night servers, we have first/third-person servers, we have regional servers, we should have servers where gamma is locked (without taking the option away) or servers where the crosshair is disabled (without taking the option away). Stop trying to take options away, you're not the most important player, you're basically crying "stop liking what I don't like!!!" like so many people on this forum.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Ulfhedjinn

[Jakaali 1]

I'll just repost this here too, if its ok. I think it's the best example of a fix for the TPV exploit yet: Relevant part about 14mins in

 

This fix please :thumbsup: 

 

From time to time I like to play on first person for real immersion, and lately quite often. Why I do play on third person is simply because I just like third person, I like look at my character as he or she is on journy (not the creepy way). And I do find my self exploiting the camera angle allways and that kinda bothers me which is why I hate 3pp in games where there is pvp element. And this camera fix would be great. I could still be using 3pp without geting huge advantage of it.

[Ken Bean 175]

I come from a Socom background, 3rd person shooter on Playstation 2 for anyone that doesn't know.

And my experience is that 3rd person, while not as realistic, always brings a much faster and enjoyable gameplay style.

You had to learn to be wary of corners, bins, anything a player could hide behind, but you also used that to your advantage, it seemed to bring about a play style that I have not seen in any game since.

Everything was much more fluid, everybody moved much more freely, due to a much higher awareness of your surroundings. I'm not just talking about what you could see ahead of you, but what you could see at your feet.

I am forever getting stuck on small fences, desks etc in 1st person games, something that just doesn't happen with 3rd person.

I am a huge fan of 3rd person games, purely because I found them much more enjoyable, much more fluid in their movement, and much better paced.

I can see why people argue for 1st person only, but to me, that would bring the game down, it would slow it down way too much, and ruin the fun of it.

Good points. The gameworld indeed is a bit too to huge to make those tactical pretty-pretty stuff what 1st person brings along at every corner or tree.

And as others already said, if I find one of that awesome items they made, I want to see how it looks in the game.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Ken Bean

[floj 393]

It works the same for all players, It is balanced.

 

No you want to remove choice. Adding options is better than removing choice, the community is already divided along many axis this is called choice not "fracturing".

 

We have day/night servers, we have first/third-person servers, we have regional servers, we should have servers where gamma is locked (without taking the option away) or servers where the crosshair is disabled (without taking the option away). Stop trying to take options away, you're not the most important player, you're basically crying "stop liking what I don't like!!!" like so many people on this forum.

I'm not saying don't like what I don't like. I'm talking purely in game design mechanics. I'm trying to suggest a way that the game can incorporate 3PP without destroying the feel of horror whilst surviving that should be a part of the design...of a survival horror game...

 

So I'm not talking about removing choice in this case (although I am in the case of day/night, but that's a separate matter for a separate thread - imo darkness and light should be thought about and discussed properly as well rather than just letting people have 24/7 daylight servers on the public hive, cuz daylight isn't really the stereotypical situation in horror genres), I'm talking about enabling 3PP players to experience the world as the dev intends for it to be experienced. Not removing a feature, fixing it...it's in the thread title.

 

Use first-person servers then, you just solved your problem. I used to only use third-person, because I didn't want to gimp myself by using first-person on a server where people used third-person all the time, but now I use first-person servers because everyone on one is on a level playing field.

 

I can't say I've seen a single killer argument for why first-person servers doesn't solve your problems.

It's not my problem, it's a problem for developing and balancing the game in terms of the basic survival elements - loot, zombies, health degradation over time...I'm happy in 1PP servers right now with its barebones structure BUT as development progresses, there will come a time where the game as it stands will be affected by the PP choice EVEN EXCLUDING PVP ELEMENTS (where yes, since every player has the same things available, it's an even playing field...if everyone adopts the same playstyle). Thinking in the future, when hunger and thirst mechanics become more affecting, the general camping of an area for pvp will become less prominent and players will have to move around more for supplies - at this stage, players with 3PP as it is currently implemented will have a much easier time avoiding and dealing with zombies whilst scavenging and a faster time to clear out towns and cities as a result. This is where the balance and horror issues in the design will come in to play.

 

 

EDIT: grammar

Edited January 7, 2014 by phlOgistOn

[Ghostflux 100]

but you are used to it? And don't want to lose it for nostalgia/not having to learn to cope without it? Or because it should be in the game because it affects the game design in a positive way? (lol)

 

You're making assumptions here that I won't even bother to answer, as they are far removed from how I really think about it. Simply said I think the proposed fix is unintuitive, there's no visual indicator to show you what the character sees and doesn't see. And even though it increases the fairness of people having to expose themselves, it also steers away from giving the player the visual feedback that is needed to effectively navigate the surroundings safely.

 

To be honest when I think of it, any solution thus far has been closer to a compromise rather than an actual solution. You try to fix the issue, but introduce new ones instead. Perhaps if there was some kind of visual indicator to show you what the character sees, then I could support a feature like this. But until then, no thank you.

Edited January 7, 2014 by Ghostflux

[floj 393]

You're making assumptions here that I won't even bother to answer, as they are far removed from how I really think about it. Simply said I think the proposed fix is unintuitive, there's no visual indicator to show you what the character sees and doesn't see. And even though it increases the fairness of people having to expose themselves, it also steers away from giving the player the visual feedback that is needed to effectively navigate the surroundings safely.

 

To be honest when I think of it, any solution thus far has been closer to a compromise rather than an actual solution. You try to fix the issue, but introduce new ones instead. Perhaps if there was some kind of visual indicator to show you what the character sees, then I could support a feature like this. But until then, no thank you.

FINALLY, a genuine answer! I would agree and had already considered this but wanted a 3PP advocate to mention it instead of trotting out the same old tired responses with no thought  :D

 

A quick but ugly solution would be to extend the LOS to the whole environment, making any invisible terrain black and white  but then that's an added disadvantage for people who've already suffered blood loss as well as in night-time - they can't tell which bits of terrain they can or can't see :huh:

 

Or they could completely remove any non-visible objects and terrain, but that would look ugly as well... maybe add an overlay of a specific colour or just darken the palette on invisible terrain to differentiate it?

[rmc_blackcat 2]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already but this is the kind of view you are getting in 3rd person above and 1st person.

 

 

When your walking around you can see almost 180 degrees with most of your vision being in a cone at the front.   Your eyes can also quickly move left and right to check what might be going on.  I know what the floating camera view is bad for wall hacking but imo its still more realistic to view in 3rd person than 1st.  I played the original arma 2 dayz mostly in 1st person but I just find it to be really boring and a bit disorientating now. 

 

The only way we might see a realistic 1st person view in the future is binocular monitors like in oculus rift but for now we are left to pretty much play games with a toilet roll to our eye in first person mode :P.  

 

Edited January 7, 2014 by Sanakan

[Window Licker 504]

So what's the problem?

 

It fractures the playerbase and creates argument between the two sides.

Some players cannot play FPS at all due to motion sickness and so if your group of buddies includes one, you're forced to join him on a server you might not like yourself.

There is no specific option on the server list to easily filter between modes (easy to fix I know!)

It completely changes the gameplay even before you throw other players in the mix.

The only people who are interested in arguing about it have nothing better to do with their time, if you choose to play with a person that can't use 1st person thats your choice.

 

I'm at work so cant post a screen shot, but in the server lists I've noticed a large portion of the servers have in the description/name "3PP:ON" or "3PP:OFF" if the servers that have it off you cannot go into 3rd person. 

 

maybe somewhere down the line they will put a check box in to filter ther servers easier, otherwise why are megathreads created to "address" a non existant issue?  My TV get's the god channel, the new's in chinese and a bunch of other stuff, but I don't care because I don't watch those channels, why would you care if a person on a different server is using 3rd person?

Edited January 7, 2014 by Window Licker

[Mookzen 67]

Honestly I don't care for the exploit, just want to have the option to look at my character from the 3rd person occasionally, because gear and context. The proposed solution could work, although it does so by increasing the disconnect between players and the environment, also very hard to get used to.

[floj 393]

Honestly I don't care for the exploit, just want to have the option to look at my character from the 3rd person occasionally, because gear and context.

 

Context is actually a very good reason why 1PP on its own isn't a satisfactory solution - it's incredibly difficult to determine how well hidden you are when in cover, far more difficult than it is IRL. Maybe 1PP servers could have an option to pan around yourself in 3PP with all other player models disabled as a fix for this.

[floj 393]

When your walking around you can see almost 180 degrees with most of your vision being in a cone at the front.   Your eyes can also quickly move left and right to check what might be going on.  I know what the floating camera view is bad for wall hacking but imo its still more realistic to view in 3rd person than 1st.  I played the original arma 2 dayz mostly in 1st person but I just find it to be really boring and a bit disorientating now.

You can move your eyes around your monitor to take in different parts without moving your mouse - so same difference, but yeah we don't have stereoscopic imaging if you're looking at a 2D projection of a 3D world...although it'd be just as feasible to have shutter glasses on with a 3D enabled screen until Rift arrives in a complete form.

[shagohad 124]

Why make a new thread? why even discuss it. If we are talking about significant development time to implement an LoS feature then just keep it separate as it is now. 3rd person is clearly a silly way to play a permadeath game, you outlined why OP. It makes the PvP a farce. If players are willing to accept this because every now and then they will be on the giving end rather than the receiving in a fight then let them. 

 

I think both player bases would rather work be done on what makes dayz what it is (tents, cars, hunting, persistence) and not on their preferred view mode. I think the majority of 1st person players are there for a level of immersion that you only get with 1st person. LoS has nothing to do with it. 

 

Really this is just going to be another thread arguing over which is superior, its a waste of time, keep them separate. I'm happy to play with a smaller group of players who take the game more seriously

[shagohad 124]

Not sure if this has been mentioned already but this is the kind of view you are getting in 3rd person above and 1st person.

 

 

When your walking around you can see almost 180 degrees with most of your vision being in a cone at the front.   Your eyes can also quickly move left and right to check what might be going on.  I know what the floating camera view is bad for wall hacking but imo its still more realistic to view in 3rd person than 1st.  I played the original arma 2 dayz mostly in 1st person but I just find it to be really boring and a bit disorientating now. 

 

The only way we might see a realistic 1st person view in the future is binocular monitors like in oculus rift but for now we are left to pretty much play games with a toilet roll to our eye in first person mode :P.  

 

 

 

its seems hilarious to me that you bring up realism in a discussion of the 3rd person mode in dayZ and arma when that mode allows you to look over walls, cliffs, through windows, over ledges, ect. without ever exposing yourself or even moving (just head panning)

 

this is why just keep the hives separate, arguments like this make no sense to me as a 1st person player and they never will. We are playing a game that gives you a head look function. I go an play other shooters now (also 1st person) and I feel claustrophobic compared to Arma. Leave the 3rd person community to their broken gamemode and have done with it. They are aware of the exploits and still want to play it so just let it be. 

[floj 393]

Why make a new thread? why even discuss it. If we are talking about significant development time to implement an LoS feature then just keep it separate as it is now.

Well out of curiousity I just downloaded the files for the Arma mod we're talking about and looked with a completely uneducated eye at the .sqf file inside. It's less than 200 lines of not very dense code (is that all that you need for this btw? Never did Arma modding myself).

 

Obviously 99% of the coding effort is in knowing how to start those 200 lines and then tweaking them whilst performing certain blood sacrifices and rituals, but now it's been done once, I'd imagine later efforts would be easier to replicate and expand on.

[Kocot 35]

First person servers.

Sorted.