Zombies: Standalone vs. Mod

[zhrike 264]

EDIT: wanted to add this up top. I am not complaining about the state of the alpha, which I think I made clear below. This is intended simply as a musing conversation about what zombies were, are, and where they might go. END EDIT

 

I've been bouncing back and forth from mod to SA to compare and contrast the mechanisms and the environment over the past few days.

There have been a number of disparate threads on zombies, the request for more, the fact that they are too easy, that they clip through walls, etc., and we who have read rocket's message about the alpha know that zombies are a major point of development; optimization, path finding, being server-based vs. client, etc.

This is about what they should be in the SA vs. the Mod. Or maybe it is about what they are in the SA vs the mod. Or maybe it's about me being bored at the moment. In any case ...

The first and obvious point is that there are hardly any zombies. Anyone who has played both the mod and the SA knows this. For those players who have not played the mod ... just you wait. And, I'd suggest, strongly, that you try it out, if the Arma 2 collection isn't too expensive. I digress: I personally think that Arma 2 is awesome, and I bought it originally simply to play DayZ, and love the actual game (and wasteland - with Arma 3, too). End of digression.

So back to SA point one: there are hardly any zombies. We know this, and we know why (server load). They are incredibly easy to deal with if you have a decent melee weapon, or fists (which we all have), or if you have any type of firearm because they are generally alone. Or remarkably harsh language.

SA Point two: They are slow.

SA Point three: They run in a straight line.

SA Point four: They seem to notice players from Guam. In other words: from very far away.

SA Point five: They are easy to lose (mostly due to point two).

SA Point six: They are weak.

SA Point seven: They are spawned at server start or restart (at this point).

SA Point last: They have no sense of humor. Seriously, I told a few some of my best jokes and all they did was moan, scream, and stumble towards me. Pricks.

Any more points?

Mod zombies:

MOD Point one: They are fast. Like bizarrely, horror-movie, methamphetamine-gobbling track star fast. They're 100M behind you, then they are in your back pocket, stealing your bennies.

MOD Point two: They are legion. They are everywhere (as long as there is a structure nearby).

MOD Point three: They run around as if they had a physical tourettes going on; and with their speed, that's disconcerting.

MOD Point four: They seem to notice players appropriately.

MOD Point five: They are easy to lose (just break line of hearing/sight or run into a pine tree).

MOD Point six: They seem okay in terms of power, except for the fact that they can hit you from Guam. Or, from like 5 meters away.

MOD Point seven: They are spawned by player proximity.

MOD Point eight: They're humorless fucks. And buggy as hell.

MOD Point last: Fuck them, hitting me through walls and floor motherfuckers.

To address is point by point, compare and contrast style:

Point one: We know more zombies will be added. We know that they are looking at roving zombie hordes (awesome). I'd like to see cities infested with zombies, much like the mod. I'd also like to see villages that have fewer, but also to have zombies roaming the countryside. In the mod, once you get into the wilderness, unless you are near some form of structure (deer stand, etc.) zombies are fairly rare. So changing that would be good, IMO. Make survival, even for lone wolf players like me, more challenging.

Point two: Zombie speed. I think that the Mod zombie speed is ridiculous. We adjust, sure, but it is also immersion-breaking. I'd like to see them faster than they are currently, but not as fast as the player. It would also make sense that zombie speed would be variable - with different types of zombies being faster or slower than others.

Point three: I think, at this point, that it makes sense that a zombie would run straight at you, being single-minded brain-addicted hunger monsters (pun intended), so I like that. I like that I can shoot them from far off as they move straight at me, sure, but I also thinks it works for immersion. Make them faster, with more of them, I am not sure that this presents a problem.

Point four: I have no real evidence to back up my perception that the zombies in SA have greater player awareness than in the mod. It just seems that this is the prevailing opinion. I think that perception in the mod at this point (1.8) is good. I also haven't found reason to complain in the SA. Not sure if it needs tweaking, but once we go from dozens to hundreds, maybe so.

Point five: Losing them should be possible much in the same ways it is possible now in SA. A pine tree should not afford protection, but being able to outrace and break line of sight should work, provided the zombies aren't Usain Bolt on meth.

Point six: The zombies in standalone seem slightly underpowered to me. I think they need to do more damage. With the relative reduction in speed it would be appropriate that they'd do more damage than they do right now, provided they can't hit you through walls, or from more than five meters away. One of the major problems when I played the mod regularly (1.7.x) was that they were simply background noise. They would be ignored entirely. 1.8 definitely made them more powerful, which is one deterrent to mindless KOS. Not KOS, mind you, but mindless KOS. There is a difference. I also think that zombie power, much like speed, could be variable - at least in terms of different zombie types having more or less power than others.

Point seven: Major issue with the Mod is that zombies having spawned immediately informs you of another player's presence, at least recently. Having server-side zombies is a huge improvement right off of the bat.

Points eight and last: yeah, well.

So that's my take at the moment on the zombie situation. I will add that movement, weapon and inventory management, and interface improvements from mod to SA are phenomenal.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Fukkit

[frosti 2165]

I don't like fast zombies.

[Demophon 48]

The Zombies in SA are so good in so many ways but they need serious fixing since they can walk through objects and are most of the time oblivious.

But overall the SA zeds have so much more potential than the mod zeds

[Timecharge 28]

I don't like super fast zombies but I am fine with their current speed in SA, if they were all incredibly slow then even in a horde they wouldn't be a threat

 

i also think they need to hit a bit harder make it more viable to sneak past them rather than risk getting hit by them

Edited January 5, 2014 by Timecharge

[WhySoSadCZ 10]

They should be almost same fast as the players are, it would make you more aware of your steps, because it wouldnt be so easy just to run away from them.

[Kegaro 19]

Point One: This is Alpher. The game is far from being complete and the Zombie AI is being completely reworked. We have no idea how it will end up functioning at this point.

 

Point Two: You are comparing a mod that has been out for over a year to an "Alpha release" that has been available for 2 weeks.

 

Point Three: All your points are invalid. 

[zhrike 264]

The Zombies in SA are so good in so many ways but they need serious fixing since they can walk through objects and are most of the time oblivious.

But overall the SA zeds have so much more potential than the mod zeds

I'm pretty sure that Rocket specifically addressed the clipping issue, and that there is a fix that just needs to be implemented that is dependent on structure geometry. I'm confident that the clipping issues that we've seen in the mod will be cleaned up relatively quickly. It's definitely disconcerting to have a zombie materialize through a wall while you're huddling in a house eating some beans. Mmmm beans.

[zhrike 264]

Point One: This is Alpher. The game is far from being complete and the Zombie AI is being completely reworked. We have no idea how it will end up functioning at this point.

 

Point Two: You are comparing a mod that has been out for over a year to an "Alpha release" that has been available for 2 weeks.

Point Three: I didn't actually read what you wrote.

 

Point Four: All my points are invalid.

Fixed.

[Karl87 17]

Where is the part where they do not have to find a break in a fence to run through it and dont need doors to enter buildings, these are my biggest gripes with the ai with standalone

[zhrike 264]

Where is the part where they do not have to find a break in a fence to run through it and dont need doors to enter buildings, these are my biggest gripes with the ai with standalone

Clipping. I didn't include that since, as I said in the beginning, we know that zombies are a main focus of the devs, and that these technical issues will be addressed ... and in the case of clipping, there are already fixes that simply haven't been implemented yet. My post was musing about the direction of zombies in the SA.

[Karmaterror 982]

Point 1, Yep we need more and I think we will get them. I like the idea of them outside towns aswell...reminds me of in the mod when we had them spawning along treelines for a while.

 

Point 2, The speed is varied in the SA now, but overall they are just too slow for me. Id like it if most were as fast as the player. Say 60%....some slightly slower, say 15%, but the last 25% are actually faster than the player. That way fleeing is a tactical decision, and might stop people just running round full speed looting, while they know they can always run away faster than they can be chased.

 

Point 3, I agree they should come strait at you, but I feel like a lot of the challenge in shooting them is gone. Id like to see not the old mod "zig zag" but more of a gentle wave to there run. Also I think it would be cool if they tripped up and fell sometimes. That way its not just a head moving towards you ....easy no skill headshot lol.

 

Point 4, Yeah they do seem to detect a bit better (vision wise) in the SA, but iv found I can jog on concrete and stuff really close if they don't have LOS. Something that would have defo startled them in the mod. Id like to see the hearing upped so they can be alerted that way more....and the sight slightly reduced.

 

Point 5, Havent really tried to loose em properly yet.....how can I resist chopping them all down with an axe :D I think how it was possible in the mod was fine though.

 

Point 6, Defo give them different power, ya never know whats gonna happen then and adds to the threat. I remember the recent mod patches have made them a lot tougher, I think we will see that happen towards the end of the Alpha phase.

 

I think the things we will see first with zombies is the numbers go up and respawns happen. As the servers get more stable they will want to test how much they can handle. I don't see things like balancing zed damage/run speed and such till much later on. Sort of when everythings in, stable and functioning then balance starts.

[Mutonizer 78]

They do with some, don't with others. It's just a matter of re-working some aspects of their pathing, especially in buildings. Overall however, I can already see the ground work that was done on them and what they might become and to me, that smells: AWESOME. Their animations are great, their overall pathing in open terrain is pretty cool too and I'm fine with their speed and current power.

 

If the DayZ team can indeed manage to offer a serious zombie population and a re-work on their perception system, the sheer mass of them will make things very interesting I think, especially if ammo/guns are hard to find.

 

LOTS of balancing to be done, in many areas, but the bare-bone version we got so far is quite promising, ultra stable, fluid and with almost nothing, already very enjoyable. Only time will tell though of course.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Mutonizer

[Mookzen 67]

Point Two: You are comparing a mod that has been out for over a year to an "Alpha release" that has been available for 2 weeks. [snip]

 

Yeah, only the alpha release happens to be the same game on the same engine on the same map more or less.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Mookzen

[zhrike 264]

Yeah, only the alpha release happens to be the same game on the same engine on the same map more or less.

And, to add, I was using the Mod as the only other viable comparison that exists, and I was also simply musing about the direction of zombies while at the same time soliciting feedback and a conversation, knowing that the devs read this forum.

[Adelheid 9]

So, somebody complained about DayZ being too static. Why not make zombles more variable? Nothing gamebreaking but think of Zombies having two stats: x/10 speed and x/10 strength - with only 10 points to (randomly) assign to each attribute in total.

 

Resulting in something like:

 

• SA-Zombie (standard, currently): 5/10 speed and 5/10 strength
• Runner: 9/10 speed and 1/10 strength, (doing basically no damage but being a huge pain in the ass, unable to shake off, being very creepy, maybe scream in weird ways? Irghs.)
• Walker: 1/10 speed and 9/10 strength, (being easy to avoid but if you happen to be in the path while you're afk taking a dumb, god save you from that one-hit)
• and others in that spectrum, like 3/10 speed and 7/10 strength and so on.

Would love it and should be doable to implement.

Edited January 5, 2014 by Adelheid

[gibonez 3633]

Stand alones zombies are much better.

 

They could just increase in numbers.

 

The zombies in the mod were atrociously bad.

[raynor009 204]

Please no more zombies that run with 60km/h. Back in the mod its like they were on steroids or something.

[fig0451 85]

Fairly sure the zombies, when working correctly, actually operate on line of sight, in addition to sound awareness. This is why you can sneak up behind them, and why they'll charge across a field to get you. Given the updates we've been told are coming, I'd say the zeds are working just fine, aside of their obviously bugged ability to walk through objects. Infact, on rare occasion, I have actually seen a zombie navigate up stairs to get to me.

[Aetla 7]

More zombies and even zombie hordes in wilderness especially in forests. And for the love of god less firearms and ammunition. That would a game changer. And if they overhaul the melee combat and weapons! Sounds great to me :)

[combatcomm1 234]

Wow, I cannot believe some people in here are saying the zombie speeds are fine. Seem like PvPers that don't want the zombies interfering with their prey in their sights. 

 

Wrong, the zombies are impossibly easy to outrun. More of them will not make them more challenging unless they're faster, can knock us down, and are stronger. We need faster zombies. They are HUMAN being with some blood thirsty rage virus. So what if they run like their on meth? Anyway they should at the very least be fast as a human since well, THEY ARE HUMANS! 

 

Who has something to say against this? If they're humans then they should at LEAST be as fast as us if not more for their disease helping them in some way. End of discussion.

Edited January 5, 2014 by VictorM