Who Are You? Or "How to make DayZ not all about KOS in a few not so easy steps".

[semipr0 402]

So I was giving some long thought to DayZ in regards to its overall game design and it occurred to me that I'd inadvertantly come across the answer to DayZ's chronic problems with a lack of "direction" and/or "purpose" while watching some shows on Netflix.

 

Sounds a little crazy but I'll just put it out there in quick plain language and then expand on it a bit from that point. (WITH THE EXPLICIT UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS ALPHA...BUT ITS A PROBLEM THE MOD NEVER SOLVED EITHER SO ITS A LONG TERM ISSUE.)

 

So...here it is;

 

DayZ is like WoW, minus any sort of progressive evolution.

 

Yes I just heard the record needle of your minds scratch right off the vinyl there so I'd best explain myself a bit more succinctly cause otherwise theres no real point.

 

Its kind of a gigantic stretch to compare DayZ and World of Warcraft....ones about surviving an apocalypse and the other is about diddling night elves in Goldshire (err....that is the point of WoW right? I really haven't spent much time there in the last four years).

 

Anyways that aside whats the one thing about WoW that everyone can generally agree on? The total lack of individuality. You are Ret Pally #163619361379rFWERtQWR15661561 and you've got the same copies of the same gear that so many other people have that it literally needs a 255 character hashID to even be stored in a database. Theres nothing individual about you at all...except maybe what you're telling the night elves in Goldshire...and even thats probably not very original.

 

Now how does that apply in circumstance to DayZ? Well its simple...DayZ has zero individuality whatsoever from character to character. As much as I appreciate the fact that there are three distinctly racial females and males now as opposed to one hacked in female player model that was taken from an Arma 2 NPC model and all that...its still pretty much disposable people.

 

Disposable people with no real identities and no true acquisitions of worth. Everything you have everyone else can get.

 

Now, what is the key component of player investment in an RPG experience? (And sorry if you weren't aware folks but DayZ is classed technically as an RPG).

 

The key component of player investment in an RPG is progressive evolution. People will even stop diddling night elves in Goldshire for a bit to go do something else in WoW if it involves something that achieves this goal.

 

This doesn't just apply to World of Warcraft I just wanted to use it as an example for its stunning lack of player individuality (Which purple haired night elf were you diddling anyways? The purple haired one with the blue skin or the purple haired one with the weird face paint?) but conversely WoW at least offers systems of character evolution.

 

DayZ has never offered this as part of its experience there is nothing to take pride in achieving because its all transitory and worthless to start with. The only skills or individual hallmarks a DayZ player has are the skills they sit at the keyboard and aim a gun with, or vomit racial slurs into Direct VOIP with...whichever tends to suit I suppose.

 

So what DayZ truly needs to evolve beyond the mods conundrum of having no purpose after the intial gear up phase is completed is player evolution.

 

Now lets not approach this with a closed mind, I'm hardly calling for talent trees or skill paths or whatever. I'm simply saying that perhaps part of what DayZ is can somehow reflect on our characters, if played over time, to make these characters "evolve" within the environment in ways that make them special and individual to the player.

 

See its really easy right now to just jump into DayZ and spend a few hours looting around and then get so bored that you're literally willing to commit murder to enterain yourself. And the reason for that is because theres no real incentives or visual feedback that rewards not doing that. Nor anything that penalizes it either.

 

Systemically video games are limited in how to implement the true experience of personal growth and evolution an individual actually experiences and I am not really expecting DayZ to break any new ground in this area, the engine its built in is simply too limited...but there are things this engine can do that can help the scenario of bland, die stamped, disposable people expand into a richer character experience that creates personal identification with a character and thus supports individuality and by association reduces mindless murder by creating a point of actual risk in the possible loss of a character or the repetitive and wanton slaughter of other peoples characters.

 

First up is a couple minor things that aren't really so minor when it comes down to implementation but they're so minor in real life we barely give them much thought.....hair growth, facial hair, eye color, scarring from wounds, broken noses, muscular development, cardiovascular development, mental development....and so on and so forth.

 

Now some of these things are pretty difficult to implement though they are things I've seen people ask for...simple facts are that scalable meshes and variable diffuse/normal maps that could effectively deal with something like hair growth or scarring and/or bone structure changes due to injury are pretty intensive systems to develop...you don't see them in most games not because no ones thought about it...its because the technology just isn't up to the task, nor are there enough artists assigned to any one project to produce enough resources to support that kind of functionality in anything but the most basic and generic of levels. But some of these things aren't specifically impossible to implement into DayZ in fact they are inherently possible within the current systems dynamics that are in the alpha. You don't really need a talent tree/skill tree in DayZ...you just need to get a little better at everything you do just cause you're doing it regularly and over long term stretches. Lets take the last three things I mentioned and turn them into game elements.

 

Muscular Development: [(MAC - pi x TSF)2/4 pi] - 10 (6.5 for females)...see easy. Okay not so easy. But regardless there is well established math behind the measurment of muscle mass, its called anthropometrics. And it basically governs the understanding of repetitive muscle use to overall strength and muscle growth. This can be easily harnessed as a game mechanic which gives people a baseline aggregate gain in conjunction with cardiovascular development which can be measured and increased numerically over a period of time.

 

Cardiovascular Development: Used in conjunction with Muscular Development, you can create an cross line equation between Cardiovascular Development and Muscular Development and based on gains and/or losses (from injury) you can set a persistent daily growth of a certain percentage in capability. This would effectively do very basic but useful things in the long term character play of achieving slightly longer sprinting durations before exhaustion, being able to carry more weight by expanding inventory space by one gear slot per worn item per percentage of development achieved and an increase in the overall general resistance of illness as well as increasing the capability of the player to recover from minor injury with faster recovery times than the baseline.

 

Two very simple human developmental systems which can be harnessed by DayZ as game elements to incentivize longer term existences, without really having to do much more than the system is already doing. And in very simple english it means the longer you live the slightly better you become.

 

Mental Development: This is a much ignored portion of human development in games it doesn't really appear often but its also a key factor in the DayZ experience which I feel could be easily harnessed as a mechanic which engenders a feeling of player evolution and daily gains. Mental development can best be described in game system application as the ability to discern the overall use of an object in conjunction with another object. Lets take a camp stove and a gas cannister for example. Now me...being a Boy Scout/Ex-Military type..I know exactly what these two things are and how to use them. That is mental development based on exposure. If you were to hand both these items to my fiancee with no documentation and no explanation as to what their functions were...she would not immediately understand their purpose. And shes a lawyer, so...shes not stupid, shes just had no exposure to these kinds of systems over her lifetime and thus lacks the mental development to make the immediate connection. Let face it, somethings are slightly more complex than a game likes to make them...such as the operation and maintenance of an M4A1Carbine Assault Rifle. Part of mental development could be tied into the direct ability to understand the usage of certain weapon attachments. Given as you're not really plaguing us with the need for understanding the actual weapon systems and/or having to break down and clean one which is even more complex, the mental development it takes to actually understand how to, perhaps, simply remove a stock from a weapon might take a little time for your average non-military civilian. So perhaps one application of mental development would be percentile gain in understanding of interactive systems via timed exposure...it simply makes no sense that everyone that just landed on the beach knows how to break down an assault carbine...when in reality a good sized portion of the population can't even figure where the safety on a hand gun is.

 

Another application of systemic understandings in mental development would be how competent you are at surviving at all. Ergo the more mental development you get over time, the better you are at sustaining critical intakes of protein and hydration and you get a greater benefit from them due to your greater understanding of balancing your diet to the needs of an extreme environment. Cause again lets face it, if you took someone that was used to eating at Taco Bell and threw them into the Brazilian jungle for a week with nothing but a flashlight, chances are pretty good that they wouldn't be coming back out again, even in a situation of access to civilization and its creature comforts such as food in can they'd still be challenged to maintain a healthy diet and get the most out of it....which to be honest even some of the most health conscious people still have trouble with due to immediate or non-immediate access to proper dietary intake for their physical needs. So effectively you could use mental development as a way of giving a percentile increase over time in how much water benefits a player when its consumed. Right now I can sit at well and spam that thing til my stomach is going to explode and I don't really get much out of that except the nebulous concept of "Well if you do this right and theres some food involved too the correct balance of both may produce an overall effect of healing over time"...thats nice, perhaps maybe mental development would make these two things cost less of the base resources it takes to achieve that state based on the mental understanding of how to balance dietary intake?

 

And another critical application of mental development is stability. The ability to deal with stress and/or rationalize difficult decisions and scenarios. Faced with situation of starvation or murder, your average human being is going to probably initially make quick decisions to their own benefit without feeling any cost from the scenario itself...but faced with these situations over time, depending on how you deal with them, you either become far more stable and rational in regards to them, or you tend to lose your grip slowly but surely and end up somewhere on the other side of PTSD and in some worst cases total insanity. Sanity and stability are two figures which could also be affected by mental development, both of which would be affected by character actions. To use the classical hero/bandit approach only really makes a tacit attempt at giving these truly human experiences a number...no true effects, just a number, perhaps in the cases of some mods of the mod that number might have mattered, but in the SA I think this needs more than a number..it needs direct benefits/deficiets that associate with it. Mental health is often reflected by physical health, taking mental development in association with and in aggregate accumulation of player choices and actions can lead DayZ down a road of slightly more realistic control of the internets rather sociopathic tendency to not give a fuck about what they do in relation to other people cause all that matters is that they win in the end. Add a little thing like depression as a statistical debuff to the consistent pursuit of wanton murder and you may actually be on a track to make people think about how their actions are going to affect them...you could even go as far as to add insanity, client side rendering of zombies that simply aren't there..causing the player to react to them as if they were real threats and compromising their location/wasting their ammunition is a simple application of "insanity" which could be used as an end system deficiet for being a cold blooded killer. (Not to say that everyone goes insane from killing other people but..lets just use it as a baseline cause this is a game after all). Whereas conversely the judicious use of force only when required could be incentivized by simply giving a player a better capability of dealing with the stress of random life threatening situations as a daily course of events without creating a deficiet to their physical and/or mental well being. So...in simple terms, heroes can kill more often because they don't kill more often, whereas bandits might end up in a situation where they cannot perform at physical peaks due to mental deficiets accrued from their chosen pattern of behavior and thus while killing more they cannot do as much as efficiently....and I totally think the insanity thing is a definite area of possibility using client sided rendering because...I'm already kinda freaked out by zombie rabbits, and thats not even intentional, imagine what could be done...just with that unintentional side effect if applied with a little creative thought?

 

Now what in the name of hell did this long winded post have to do with Netflix?

 

Well in relative terms, why did we care about The Walking Dead, to name one of the most relevant examples? It certainly wasn't for the gratuitous amount of dismembering zombies that occurred, nor was it particularly about the ridiculous amount of action and explosions going on because those weren't as typical as you might assume...but it was all about the characters, who they were, who they became...why they became that person in the first place.

 

So...in short....DayZ needs to support who you are in relation to who you have chosen to be, to give some level of meaning to the experience and to give the player a sense of ownership and responsibility within the world they're sharing with others. Cause DayZ never has...and because it never has, its never really been much more than a death match game with a rather large map. And the way to start supporting that is to start quantifying the human experience of living in the world DayZ presents into mathematically measurable and applicable systems that can benefit and define the player beyond their gear or the shirt they're wearing.

 

Anyways...just some very long winded thoughts, if you made this far into the post, I appreciate your time.

Edited January 3, 2014 by semipr0

[imperian_man 31]

Mank,I gotta tell you something,I never played this game,but it seems that you are right,its all a big deathmatch,especially when zombies and survival is out of the question,It would be good if we added some RPG-ness to DayZ,like Borderlands 2 talent trees,but its all mud in the water my friend,its never going to happen!

[Hetstaine 10852]

Good read :) All of it has been mentioned over the last year and more but you broke it down well. All of the above is something i would like to see implemented as really atm the only thing i have invested in my char is the base reason, time. I like to see how long he can stay alive, once i get to about day 2 or 3 it's all about how long can he go for, there isn't too much else really except the journey he has been on, the fights he has survived and the comebacks from near death. Gear is gear and it is easy to get, still far to easy imo. Any other reason to keep my guy alive would be a vast improvement.

 

edit - Facial growth would be a cool start and probably the easiest to implement, throw in forty days worth of beard growth textures and pop one out every ten hours of playtime.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Hetstaine

[Dr. Goner 661]

I think you did a good job of concisely laying out several suggestions that have been made before.

 

I really like the idea of being able to see facial hair, bandages, scars, and other "symbols" of a seasoned character. I think if I came upon a bearded, grizzled, scarred, one eyed character in the wilderness, I would be much less likely to shoot him in the face. In fact, I think I would want to know his story and what he had learned. How the hell did you lose that eye man?

 

I'm currently on my second character since the day of release. I have seen some shit. I've killed and been wounded by players and zombies. I've gotten really ill, black and white screen, from both injuries yet managed to nurse myself painstakingly back to health. These are the defining experiences of my play through. It would be nice if there was visible evidence of them on my body. But in reality, I'm just kitted up in matching cammo just like any other server hopper could be in a couple hours. 

[rn_max 202]

The road to hell is paved with good intentions ... and KoS topics.

 

For some people, a first person game with firearms and somebody else to shoot will always equal fun and entertainment.  No theories, no customisation, no amount of forum space will change that.

 

Pixel killing is nothing more than how some people get their kicks in this video game SANDBOX, there are no rules against it and the game mechanics deliberately allow for it.

 

DayZ is what players, both individually and collectively, make of it when playing.

[semipr0 402]

DayZ is what players, both individually and collectively, make of it when playing.

 

This is very true but this can be said of any game experience wherein there are very few controlling systems in of which to define a path outside of that.

 

The ideas behind this post are essentially rooted in attempting to add a structure to the experience which is somewhat unobtrusive to the sandbox nature of the game.

 

Again I'm saying lets make it a bit more like real life to give that simple structure. You don't do/or do things in your life depending on the weight of the negative to positive benefits you achieve from either choice. You don't eat an entire pizza by yourself because to do so is inviting yourself to the cardiac ward at some point down the line, and/or you do eat a whole pizza by yourself because you really like pizza and you are unconcerned with the need for angioplasty at some point in your future.

 

The point of the above example is both choices have benefits and deficiets, and every choice has these benefits and deficiets, even such simple choices as...watching pornography or watching a documentary....meaningless choice in practicality but in the same general vein, you either gain or lose something from either experience. Its an invisible structure of personal development....we all live in it daily so we don't even really notice it. Some people may not notice it at all as its literally just instinctual and below the need for thought to them...or in some unfortunate cases they may be incapable of complex self awareness in any regard whatsoever.

 

So yeah, what you say is true...but what DayZ can be is more than just what the players make of it. Its all in how the experience is defined. Right now beyond geography, retro-architecture, basic human survival and ballistics...DayZ doesn't really have any definition at all. So without an definition of experience, the experience is simply what is made of it at any given time.

[Scerun 227]

Thanks for the putting all that together!

 

While I don't necessarily agree with there being sanity/stability infliction per murders, since it seems to be far too broad-sweeping to possibly fairly measure each scenario. I do agree, however, that there should be one.  Though perhaps, where I feel you're wrong, is simply the ailments of the murders. instead of suffering delusions (which I think is a bit contrived, and a student-level solution to a far more complex issue). A good-guy may feel the guilt a murderer may have after a 100 kills, after he has only killed one himself. So something as arbitrary as saying 'good guys can kill more, because they're good' doesn't necessarily reflect a reality, and I'll conject that it won't make a good system - one that's is simply too black or white.

 

The good ideas, are certainly the attachment you have to your character. Definitely, more clothes will help that out. Hairstyles, etc. Facial hair/hair growth would be fantastic. Perhaps as your hair grows longer, you get access to style in certain ways? Longer styles, clearly, will need longer hair. I know things like this to the arma-cross-over community of DayZ to be silly, fluff items, but attachment to your character is something that is very lacking from the mod, and currently the standalone. It's absolutely right, that DayZ is, and always has been, simply a glorified deathmatch, for everyone to troll each other over VOIP, spew slurs and team up with their super-leet mega-tactics clan and fight other self-aggrandised clans in tawdry team deathmatches. DayZ is meant to be more than that.

 

I'd love to see character customisation that makes use of how common RPGs, amd MMORPGs do it. Lists of faces, hairsyles. Adjust cheek-bones, nose size, eye angle, etc, etc. It's things like these that create an attachment to your character. DayZ was all about "Your Story", but why should I care about my story? There isn't one. I'm using a generic character.

 

 

 

Unfortunately, the solutions to KoS are not going to be direct countermeasures, but instead, a whole tonne of indirect measures.

 

Let's include what I've said above, and say that upon death:

 

--You must redesign your character. This makes sense, because the last one died. You are a new story; a new person. Tedious? Perhaps, but let's not rule it out immediately. 

 

--You wake up on the beach, ill, dehydrated and almost starving. Your blood is full, but your health has seen better days. If you want to, as-the-crow-flies, make a bee-line back for your gear and carry on with an inconsequential death and continue deathmatching with your clan, then you have to first get your new character into good health.

 

 

In these two examples, I guess I've just gone for increasing the weight of death, but there'll be more to it than just punishing deaths. Right now, death is only a consequence if you're alone. If you've got friends to camp your gear - where's the consequence? A bit of tedium isn't consequence. Those two ideas above don't necessarily do anything to stamp out the corpse-camping, and that's something that will need a very direct solution, and a bit of bravery to go around (Say, upon death, you lose access to the server for an hour, two hours? Just spitballing, here).

 

 

 

Any way, I thought I'd pitch in my ideas,and I'm glad to see that there's more to this community than "TLDR", and idiotic smack-talking. Appreciate the time you put in!

Edited January 3, 2014 by Scerun

[rn_max 202]

I said it in more detail across in (yet) another related topic, but here's the TL;DR version:

 

All the time the game is full of guns ... expect to be shot.  Say goodbye to most of the guns ... say goodbye to most of the shooting.

 

Simples!

 

 

Out of interest (or not) here is my long-winded post:  http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/161100-system-to-punish-kos/page-4#entry1625170

[Scerun 227]

I said it in more detail across in (yet) another related topic, but here's the TL;DR version:

 

All the time the game is full of guns ... expect to be shot.  Say goodbye to most of the guns ... say goodbye to most of the shooting.

 

Simples!

 

 

Out of interest (or not) here is my long-winded post:  http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/161100-system-to-punish-kos/page-4#entry1625170

 

 

I don't necessarily agree with this solution. The problem isn't, strictly, KoS. It's the violence between all the players (because there's nothing else to do, and it's more beneficial to kill otther, stranger, players. The risk of keeping them alive outweighs the reward). So, if you remove more guns, and add more table legs? It won't be Kill on Sight, but Pummel on Sight, and there we go, we have a new epidemic on our hands. The problem isn't guns, but the fact the game facilitates no real use of your time other than using these guns to kill one another.

[Bakercompany86 347]

This is a very well written and well thought out post.  Thank you for sharing.

 

I do however disagree with the majority of it.

 

Your ideas are well thought out, but personally I don't want to see any kind of "mental health" mechanic in the game.  Every time I read one of those it's just another idea of how to punish people who kill on sight.  This one seems to be just that only a little more fancy.  I really don't want anything like this in the game at all.

 

Someone mentioned before about progressive beard growing or something like that as far as character progression.  The problem is most people cover their faces with gas masks eventually.  I'm still not opposed to the idea however.  I do want a grizzly beard on my character.

 

I also don't really want to see any sort of in-game benefit for surviving longer.  It's not a horrible idea at all, but I think it's actually going to encourage killing on sight.  The longer I survive, the more powerful I become.  So they'll just eliminate any threats upon sight.  But this could work in the game in theory.

 

I also don't want to see any sort of skill development in the game.  As mentioned about the portable gas stove and such.  I like the current "find it and use it" system.

 

While I agree, hardly anyone can field strip an M4 like every character in this game can.  At best I think we should require a wrench/screwdriver/pliers in order to add/remove mods from an M4 or any weapon.

 

Outside of that, No skill development for me please.

[semipr0 402]

I said it in more detail across in (yet) another related topic, but here's the TL;DR version:

 

All the time the game is full of guns ... expect to be shot.  Say goodbye to most of the guns ... say goodbye to most of the shooting.

 

Simples!

 

 

Out of interest (or not) here is my long-winded post:  http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/161100-system-to-punish-kos/page-4#entry1625170

 

I think you're kind of focused solely on the fact that I used KOS in the title and you're not fully understanding what I'm suggesting or why. While what I suggest could benefit the situation of "KOS" its main thrust in theory is to provide definition, direction and purpose for the experience.

 

The reduction in KOS mentality is only a possible happy side effect of what I'm proposing. I find the key issues which are a lack of direction and purpose are the root cause of that problem..and other problems the DayZ experience has always had.

Edited January 3, 2014 by semipr0

[Bakercompany86 347]

I think you're kind of focused solely on the fact that I used KOS in the title and you're not fully understanding what I'm suggesting or why. While what I suggest could benefit the situation of "KOS" its main thrust in theory is to provide definition, direction and purpose for the experience.

 

The reduction in KOS mentality is only a possible happy side effect of what I'm proposing. I find the key issues which are a lack of direction and purpose are the root cause of that problem..and other problems the DayZ experience has always had.

 

 

I truthfully have faith and belief that when Zombies are implemented to their fullest, the KoS ratio will drop drastically.

 

Zombie AI tweaks, increase in number (drastically) and the implementation of hordes are all planned.

 

Right now there is no incentive to not fire off a shot from your Mosin on the hills overlooking the Balota airfield.

 

Make it so 10-20 Zombies come chasing you at full speed, and you'll think twice.

[Scerun 227]

Outside of that, No skill development for me please.

 

 

I think I can agree with you there. I think. It's hard to say! Do I not like the idea of skill development, because it's a bad idea, or because it'll fundamentally change a game I'm otherwise used to?

 

I'll go with the first, but, this kind of thinking is in the right direction. Though, if there's anything I can agree with, in the OP, is that a lack of "Who am I?", and attachment and association with my character, or any one else's character being as non-existent as it is, is causing a problem. The vision of Rocket's "This is your story..."   has fallen well short in all the time the mod has been out, and I'd like to see the SA finally take that direction. It should be a game about story-telling - rewarding the creative minds with a unique experience. Instead, my story is "Had a shoot-out at Balota. Respawned. Went back for my gear, and continued deathmatching.". Hardly intriguing! While, yes, it's, alpha, I only feel the need to bring up these points so strongly,  because it doesn't feel like any developments in the mod, or what I've seen of the SA so far, have done anything to achieve what I imaged DayZ was supposed to be. Hopefully the Development team see that there is a portion of the community out there who do want all that entails of the slogan "this is your story" and not just some gimmicky e-peen arena for all the super-leet tacticz teams

 

 

 

I truthfully have faith and belief that when Zombies are implemented to their fullest, the KoS ratio will drop drastically.

 

Zombie AI tweaks, increase in number (drastically) and the implementation of hordes are all planned.

 

Right now there is no incentive to not fire off a shot from your Mosin on the hills overlooking the Balota airfield.

 

Make it so 10-20 Zombies come chasing you at full speed, and you'll think twice.

 

 

 

and again, absolutely right! All small details that'll go towards changing the landscape

Edited January 3, 2014 by Scerun

[rn_max 202]

@semipr0

 

Oh I understand what you posted, but specifically answer why that direction will not matter a jot if the game remains full of guns.  They are and will remain the primary focus for many players.

 

I use this with caution ... but you simply don't get it and its not about agreement, but understanding this.  A GAME full of GUNS will have endemic amounts of shooting in it, no matter if there is basket weaving, grand designs home construction, or theme park management on the menu.

 

Also, no contrived system like starvation from gunpowder residue ruining your appetite, or having every zed in town chase gunshots, or whatever other silly scheme will change anything.  Some people will NOT value their player character, to them it is a means to wield a gun and shoot other players, nothing more.  The moment you get that is the moment you begin to understand what drives players who habitually kill on sight in this game.

 

Simple fact is that shooting other players has been THE number one staple of competitive video games for two decades.  So if you provide a crap load of firearms, they WILL be used to shoot players.

 

In simpler English, if that is possible ... using melee weapons is NOT the same as sniping elektro from a bush.  You WILL be seen, you WILL be in engagement range of the other player, you WILL have to reach their position within two metres or so, to initiate anything.  There is risk, there is consequence and there is failure, none of which, your average bambi sniper or lulz killer will particularly want.

 

 

Some players simply aren't motivated the same way and don't take the game seriously ... at all.  I would suggest that too many of the tiny minority that make up these forum dwellers do take it too seriously.

 

Sheesh people, get out of your own head space every now and then ... see things from an outside perspective, or even imagine what the opposition are thinking.  You don't have to agree with a view to understand it and disagreement is often mistaken for misunderstanding by people who cannot or will not see past their own point of view.

 

This however, is not my point of view, it is nothing more than how I see it from the outside, so to speak.  I don't kill on sight, but neither do I want to see some silly kindergarten rules enforced to manipulate the neutrality of the sandbox to appease the butthurt faction.

 

 

All this game does is imitate life, in that the majority of people are sheep, who, lacking any direction, cannot think or act for themselves past their next meal ... harsh perhaps, but if not true, there would be no problem in anyone dreaming up an end game past shooting other players.

 

In DayZ guns are that direction by their proliferation and drastic reduction is most likely to shift that focus to something else.

Edited January 3, 2014 by RN_Max

[Bakercompany86 347]

I think I can agree with you there. I think. It's hard to say! Do I not like the idea of skill development, because it's a bad idea, or because it'll fundamentally change a game I'm otherwise used to?

 

I'll go with the first, but, this kind of thinking is in the right direction. Though, if there's anything I can agree with, in the OP, is that a lack of "Who am I?", and attachment and association with my character, or any one else's character being as non-existent as it is, is causing a problem. The vision of Rocket's "This is your story..."   has fallen well short in all the time the mod has been out, and I'd like to see the SA finally take that direction. It should be a game about story-telling - rewarding the creative minds with a unique experience. Instead, my story is "Had a shoot-out at Balota. Respawned. Went back for my gear, and continued deathmatching.". Hardly intriguing! While, yes, it's, alpha, I only feel the need to bring up these points so strongly,  because it doesn't feel like any developments in the mod, or what I've seen of the SA so far, have done anything to achieve what I imaged DayZ was supposed to be.

 

 

I understand your concern.

 

However we have probably seen less than 25% of the games features implemented.  I mean in the future we're even looking at having Cannibalism in the game. We have literally no idea what direction Rocket is going to take this in.

 

But honestly if it stayed in it's current status as far as character development I'd be happy.  It's not just my mentality within the game that makes it my story.  The immersion of this game is also what does it for me.

[whtwlf 8]

I'm not sure this'd ever stop people killing on sight, however, it might make them leery of engaging for no reason. Either way, I like a lot of the suggestions and how they're geared towards individual character progression. Just those small bits of character customization (facial hair, scarring, etc.), as you said, makes you less of a cookie cutter clone and thus immerses you more in the experience.

Edited January 3, 2014 by whtwlf

[Scerun 227]

All this game does is imitate life

 

 

Then why can't I poop?  :o

[semipr0 402]

@semipr0

 

Oh I understand what you posted, but specifically answer why that direction will not matter a jot if the game remains full of guns.  They are and will remain the primary focus for many players.

 

I use this with caution ... but you simply don't get it and its not about agreement, but understanding this.  A GAME full of GUNS will have endemic amounts of shooting in it, no matter if there is basket weaving, grand designs home construction, or theme park management on the menu.

 

Also, no contrived system like starvation from gunpowder residue ruining your appetite, or having every zed in town chase gunshots, or whatever other silly scheme will change anything.  Some people will NOT value their player character, to them it is a means to wield a gun and shoot other players, nothing more.  The moment you get that is the moment you begin to understand what drives players who habitually kill on sight in this game.

 

Simple fact is that shooting other players has been THE number one staple of competitive video games for two decades.  So if you provide a crap load of firearms, they WILL be used to shoot players.

 

In simpler English, if that is possible ... using melee weapons is NOT the same as sniping elektro from a bush.  You WILL be seen, you WILL be in engagement range of the other player, you WILL have to reach their position within two metres or so, to initiate anything.  There is risk, there is consequence and there is failure, none of which, your average bambi sniper or lulz killer will particularly want.

 

 

Some players simply aren't motivated the same way and don't take the game seriously ... at all.  I would suggest that too many of the tiny minority that make up these forum dwellers do take it too seriously.

 

Sheesh people, get out of your own head space every now and then ... see things from an outside perspective, or even imagine what the opposition are thinking.  You don't have to agree with a view to understand it and disagreement is often mistaken for misunderstanding by people who cannot or will not see past their own point of view.

 

This however, is not my point of view, it is nothing more than how I see it from the outside, so to speak.  I don't kill on sight, but neither do I want to see some silly kindergarten rules enforced to manipulate the neutrality of the sandbox to appease the butthurt faction.

 

 

All this game does is imitate life, in that the majority of people are sheep, who, lacking any direction, cannot think or act for themselves past their next meal ... harsh perhaps, but if not true, there would be no problem in anyone dreaming up an end game past shooting other players.

 

In DayZ guns are that direction by their proliferation and drastic reduction is most likely to shift that focus to something else.

 

Again I'm not inherently opposed to DayZ having guns in it....what the problem is for me is regardless of how many guns there are, there is no purpose, there is no depth and thus the experience becomes bland and boring and lacks any challenge whatsoever in a rather short amount of time....it always has. I've always played DayZ in spurts. About 45 days at a stretch, off and on, then I stop..cause its boring.

 

The prevalence of guns or even a lack of them would not change the shallow nature of the simulated experience. To change that, you must add tangible benefits for having invested the time.

[rn_max 202]

Then why can't I poop?  :o

 

 

That depends on your diet ... and your psychological well being I guess.  You could try getting up from your computer and visiting the toilet occasionally!  :lol:

Edited January 3, 2014 by RN_Max

[semipr0 402]

I truthfully have faith and belief that when Zombies are implemented to their fullest, the KoS ratio will drop drastically.

 

Zombie AI tweaks, increase in number (drastically) and the implementation of hordes are all planned.

 

Right now there is no incentive to not fire off a shot from your Mosin on the hills overlooking the Balota airfield.

 

Make it so 10-20 Zombies come chasing you at full speed, and you'll think twice.

 

I don't think this will ever be a deterrent because it never was a deterrent. If you played the mod especially in the later versions previous to the SA's release, on Veteran or Expert difficulty servers...the entire "dinner bell" situation of firing off an Enfield in a populated area was only, at best, a minor annoyance for experienced players.

 

I have no faith in AI, especially not Arma AI...zombies aren't going to get more complex..they're not going to start "thinking" and will likely opt for the old methods of simply substituting quality for quantity in that regard...I.E. total numbers of zombies being increased, total damage per hit being increased..but again these are not problems for experienced players of the game beyond...perhaps, a very dark night where they can't see at all and they have no weapons.

 

So...again, 10 - 20 zombies aren't going to make me think about much other than when I have to move out of their way and how far I have to go to lose them all..which frankly won't be that far...cause you can hardly implement AI that will chase a player all the way across the map without annoying the shit out of people...so that'll never happen, so...again, zombies are not a deterrent nor are they an obstacle...and largely they add nothing definitive to the experience at all except to qualify it as a Zombie Horror Survival game....and the emphasis is pretty heavy on survival and not so much on Zombie or Horror.

Edited January 3, 2014 by semipr0

[BlindProphet 34]

The issue is everyone is the same...so you propose a solution to make people the same...  See thats the thing, nothing of what you proposed would change anything, because its essentially like collecting gear.  

 

We don't connect with the characters of the walking dead because of how they look as much as how they act, and deal with other people.  We don't connect with Rick because he can run for longer, or lift more.  We connect with him because of his character, because of his experiences.

 

People act as if having a beard and such is great, scars showing up is great...yet at the same time will be covering all of that up with gear.

 

I don't connect with my characters because of how I look or the gear I find.  Its how I found said gear.  How I managed to survive so far.  How I got held up at the military base south of Zeleno and then was let go after I had made it from electro, up to NEAF, across to NWAF and then south to there.  How just a little earlier I had finally found a can opener in vybor...after having searched every building just about in my path.  Heck it wasn't untill NWAF that i found an axe...(Seriously do you realize how many buildings are along that path I took and they hadn't all been picked over.  I found a lot of things along the way, but no axe...).  Those experiences?  Thats what tie me to my current survivor...scars, beards, none of that would tie me to it any more.  It might be cool or nice to have some of those but it doesn't make the character any more mine...as its not like my scar is going to be any different than yours, or yours from mine...  My experiences though...those are not going to be yours.  They're entirely mine.

[Scerun 227]

That depends on your diet ... and your psychological well being I guess.  You could try getting up from your computer and visiting the toilet occasionally!  :lol:

 

 

Heh! Well, I won't go s far as to regurgitate what I've said before, and what Semipr0 said above, but I don't think you should be ignoring what's said, and telling us we're the ones who aren't listening to opposing views. There's more to suggest that KoS is a not a result of "The prevalence of guns or even a lack of them", but indeed, as said  "the shallow nature of the simulated experience" - and I absolutely agree with it. It has nothing to do with human nature or other unfounded beliefs based on a very abstract game.

 

Certainly, there will always be those that won't take the game seriously and just go around killing and taking hostages for the lulz and upvotes on reddit. But, I'm one of those who just goes around murdering any and all, because there's, well, nothing else to do -  DayZ Mod, alike. Once the game is deepened (as I'm sure it i will be!), and hopefully in the right ways that steer from the deathmatching/clanmatching and towards a story-telling RPG, then I'll be one of the many who'll choose co-operation over murder, because there'll certainly be benefits to co-operations, and it'[ll be way more fun.

[rn_max 202]

DayZ is a self-confessed sandbox.

 

Welcome to Chernarus.

 

A 225 km2 open world post-soviet state and one of the areas hit by a new and presently unknown infection which has wiped out most of the world's population. You are one of the few who have survived and now you must search this new wasteland in order to fight for your life against what is left of the indigenous population, now infected with the disease.

Go Solo, team up with friends or take on the world as you choose your path in this brutal and chilling landscape using whatever means you stumble upon to survive.

 

This is DayZ.  This is your story.

 

 

I seem to remember that from somewhere

 

What was there to not understand?  Nobody sold it as S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or some other epic plot.  You do what it takes to survive and for as long as possible.  The story is how you do that, nothing more.

 

The only score shown in the mod is "Day X" on logging in.

 

 

Who Are You? OR "How to make DayZ not all about KOS in a few not so easy steps".   I seem to remember.

 

Erm ... one line answer?  It's a sandbox, grow some imagination.  Like I said, sheep without direction ...

Edited January 3, 2014 by RN_Max

[Scerun 227]

This is DayZ.  This is your story.

 

 

This alone says that this is a game about telling stories. Stories, of an RPG nature. the game does very little in its current state to encourage that, and I feel the community at large are simply taking DayZ to be Arma with zombies, when I honestly believe it's supposed to be, well, not-that.

 

The issue is everyone is the same...so you propose a solution to make people the same...  See thats the thing, nothing of what you proposed would change anything, because its essentially like collecting gear.  

 

We don't connect with the characters of the walking dead because of how they look as much as how they act, and deal with other people.  We don't connect with Rick because he can run for longer, or lift more.  We connect with him because of his character, because of his experiences.

 

People act as if having a beard and such is great, scars showing up is great...yet at the same time will be covering all of that up with gear.

 

I don't connect with my characters because of how I look or the gear I find.  Its how I found said gear.  How I managed to survive so far.  How I got held up at the military base south of Zeleno and then was let go after I had made it from electro, up to NEAF, across to NWAF and then south to there.  How just a little earlier I had finally found a can opener in vybor...after having searched every building just about in my path.  Heck it wasn't untill NWAF that i found an axe...(Seriously do you realize how many buildings are along that path I took and they hadn't all been picked over.  I found a lot of things along the way, but no axe...).  Those experiences?  Thats what tie me to my current survivor...scars, beards, none of that would tie me to it any more.  It might be cool or nice to have some of those but it doesn't make the character any more mine...as its not like my scar is going to be any different than yours, or yours from mine...  My experiences though...those are not going to be yours.  They're entirely mine.

 

 

 

On the contrary, I feel character customisation on that level is what makes me associate with my character. Imagine if every walking dead character looked the same, and sounded the same. Would you still feel the same about them, and their character? Being able to design my character is what makes me connect with the world. I don't like wearing masks and all that, simply because it de-humanises your character, and all association is lost beneath all the defacing rags and military equipment. I opt for the chest holster over the assault vests because it helps me build an idea of a character. Just like in the Walking Dead, and all film/TV, characters are designed very specifically. their costumes and how they act and speak are all what help the viewer associate with them and it's what defines them. It should be no different for a computer game that is trying to achieve the same level of emergent story-telling

[semipr0 402]

DayZ is a self-confessed sandbox.

 

Welcome to Chernarus.

 

A 225 km2 open world post-soviet state and one of the areas hit by a new and presently unknown infection which has wiped out most of the world's population. You are one of the few who have survived and now you must search this new wasteland in order to fight for your life against what is left of the indigenous population, now infected with the disease.

Go Solo, team up with friends or take on the world as you choose your path in this brutal and chilling landscape using whatever means you stumble upon to survive.

 

This is DayZ.  This is your story.

 

 

I seem to remember that from somewhere

 

What was there to not understand?  Nobody sold it as S.T.A.L.K.E.R. or some other epic plot.  You do what it takes to survive and for as long as possible.  The story is how you do that, nothing more.

 

The only score shown in the mod is "Day X" on logging in.

 

Life is a sandbox, the choices you make define who you are and what you achieve.

 

DayZ is a sandbox, the choices you make determine absolutely nothing...there is nothing to achieve because...there is nothing to achieve.

 

That is not a sandbox, that is using "sandbox" as an excuse for not having slightly more complex game dynamics.

 

So in truth, self "professed" sandbox would be a far more accurate description. The last true "sandbox" game was SWG...but that is a subject for another forum entirely.