556 Supressor useless?

[-Gews- 7443]

There's no good reason to be using subsonic 5.56. It would be fairly useless. Especially for anti-personnel purposes. If you really wanted a subsonic .22 you'd just use a .22 LR in the first place.

IMO they shouldn't even give players the option to use or make subsonic 5.56, for the most part it would be a gimmick that is based entirely on video game logic.

[Land Squid 22]

There's no good reason to be using subsonic 5.56. It would be fairly useless. Especially for anti-personnel purposes. If you really wanted a subsonic .22 you'd just use a .22 LR in the first place.

IMO they shouldn't even give players the option to use or make subsonic 5.56, for the most part it would be a gimmick that is based entirely on video game logic.

 

 

Have you ever, you know, actually shot a suppressed firearm with both super and subsonic ammunition?

[-Gews- 7443]

Have you ever, you know, actually shot a suppressed firearm with both super and subsonic ammunition?

Nope, suppressors are a prohibited device under Section 84 (1).

There is no need to shoot them - it's quite obvious that subsonic 5.56mm has far too many drawbacks to be worth using it.

"Video game logic" because many people don't understand all the problems subsonic 5.56mm would create. If ARMA 2 had done it properly it would have had less damage than a Makarov and it likely wouldn't reliably cycle, so in ARMA terms you'd have a "sometimes bolt-action" Sa61 SD.

[korpisoturi (DayZ) 127]

subsonic 5.56, like shooting a PP-gun :D

 

But if you think of it from gameplay's view they should either just make suppressor suppres sound or add special ammo, fuck realism.

[Land Squid 22]

1: Nope, suppressors are a prohibited device under Section 84 (1).

2: There is no need to shoot them - it's quite obvious that subsonic 5.56mm has far too many drawbacks to be worth using it.

3: "Video game logic" because many people don't understand all the problems subsonic 5.56mm would create. If ARMA 2 had done it properly it would have had

 

4: less damage than a Makarov and it likely wouldn't reliably cycle, so in ARMA terms you'd have a "sometimes bolt-action" Sa61 SD.

 

1: So you have zero actual experience with these systems but feel confident enough in your lack of knowledge to make sweeping judgements about what is "realistic" or not.

 

2: You're conflating your opinion with mechanical reality and are attempting to impose it on others. If one desires to eliminate as much of the sound signature as possible then modified ammunition is a necessity. That it is accompanied by a set of drawbacks is the simple reality of getting the sound signature to that minimal state.

 

3: That other people, obviously including you, do not understand all of the problems, and benefits, that are inherent to subsonic 5.56mm being fired in an unmodified gas system is not "video game logic." The proper term for that is ignorance. Video game logic would dictate that it behaves in a specious and assumptive manner without regard to fact, a concept which has most obviously gone out the window with the last couple pages worth of commentary about the real world dynamics of this sort of technology.

 

4: So what if it doesn't cycle? We already know it will do that. The rifle becomes what is known in firearms parlance as a straight pull bolt action. Then again if any sort of gunsmithing gets added in that could easily be correct by, oh I don't know: replacing the buffer spring with one of less weight, reducing the buffer weight, milling the bolt carrier group of excess material, switching from a carbine length gas system to a pistol length system and possibly reaming the gas port to a larger diameter.

 

Oh, and even if the rounds are only as powerful as a makarov... IT WILL STILL KILL YOU! You want video game logic? How about trying to argue the point that "well X is less powerful than Y when it replaces Z so it shouldn't be included..." when it doesn't freaking matter how powerful X, Y, or Z is, because all three will still kill you.

 

 

ETA: Oh hey, 10 seconds on google and what do I find? Subsonic 5.56mm that will reliably cycle an unmodified M4 action. (Video at link.) http://www.ebr-inc.net/556Subsonic.html

And other ammo made intentionally to not cycle. For the uninitiated, the only difference between these two is the bullet weight, and choice/amount of propellant used.

http://www.ebr-inc.net/556UltraStealthMatchSubsonic.html

Edited January 11, 2014 by Land Squid

[Electi 149]

I do not want to read all that wise and intelligent shit post but i just want to say that's please make it like in real life

[mi.hassler@web.de 1]

Nope, suppressors are a prohibited device under Section 84 (1).

There is no need to shoot them - it's quite obvious that subsonic 5.56mm has far too many drawbacks to be worth using it.

"Video game logic" because many people don't understand all the problems subsonic 5.56mm would create. If ARMA 2 had done it properly it would have had less damage than a Makarov and it likely wouldn't reliably cycle, so in ARMA terms you'd have a "sometimes bolt-action" Sa61 SD.

If you have never used one with both kinds of ammo, then you shouldnt talk here.

5.56 subsonic will still kill, but only with directly hitting life important organs.

 

a big variety of semi/full-auto firearms dont need special customization to cycle with subsonic ammo. Including the M16/M4. And even if not, by using a supressor and supersonic ammo you would still have the nice effect of not getting spotted when engaging enemies. because they still cant here where the fire is coming from. They will only hear the bullet passing them without knowing from which direction it came.

[-Gews- 7443]

1: So you have zero actual experience with these systems but feel confident enough in your lack of knowledge to make sweeping judgements about what is "realistic" or not.

Yes.

 

2: You're conflating your opinion with mechanical reality and are attempting to impose it on others. If one desires to eliminate as much of the sound signature as possible then modified ammunition is a necessity. That it is accompanied by a set of drawbacks is the simple reality of getting the sound signature to that minimal state.

If you want the quietest sound possible you need to eliminate the sonic crack. Yes.

 

3: That other people, obviously including you, do not under all of the problems, and benefits, that are inherent to subsonic 5.56mm being fired in an unmodified gas system is not "video game logic." The proper term for that is ignorance. Video game logic would dictate that it behaves in a specious and assumptive manner without regard to fact, a concept which has most obviously gone out the window with the last couple pages worth of commentary about the real world dynamics of this sort of technology.

 

Video game logic is subsonic rounds appearing in the first place (below).

 

 

4: So what if it doesn't cycle? We already know it will do that. The rifle becomes what is known in firearms parlance as a straight pull bolt action. Then again if any sort of gunsmithing gets added in that could easily be correct by, oh I don't know: replacing the buffer spring with one of less weight, reducing the buffer weight, milling the bolt carrier group of excess material, switching from a carbine length gas system to a pistol length system and possibly reaming the gas port to a larger diameter.

On gunsmithing: just because it's possible doesn't mean it's plausible. Players are not going to find machine shops and start making modifications.

 

Oh, and even if the rounds are only as powerful as a makarov... IT WILL STILL KILL YOU!

Fair enough.

 

 

ETA: Oh hey, 10 seconds on google and what do I find? Subsonic 5.56mm that will reliably cycle an unmodified M4 action. (Video at link.) http://www.ebr-inc.net/556Subsonic.html

And other ammo made intentionally to not cycle. For the uninitiated, the only difference between these two is the bullet weight, and choice/amount of propellant used.

http://www.ebr-inc.net/556UltraStealthMatchSubsonic.html

 

I see it cycling the action. I don't see it reliably cycling the action, that's just what the ad copy says it will do and would require further testing to verify. It also says it's "restricted" which means no customer reviews.

 

 

 

 

 

Going back to this:

 

You want video game logic? How about trying to argue the point that "well X is less powerful than Y when it replaces Z so it shouldn't be included..."

 

 

Yeah, okay, you are right: just because something is redundant or of limited use isn't a valid reason for excluding it (see Ozelot on .22 LR). Ranting about the poor ballistics was myopic.

 

 

So to the real reason I don't want to see subsonic 5.56 rounds:

 

You wouldn't find subsonic 5.56 rounds in the game world, they don't fit the Chernarus setting, survivors wouldn't attempt to create them either, their inclusion would be not at all believable. That goes for subsonic cartridges for pretty much all other rifle calibers as well. One could come up with some kind of backstory to attempt to explain their presence but the same could be said for anything.

[Land Squid 22]

1a: Video game logic is subsonic rounds appearing in the first place (below).

 

2: On gunsmithing: just because it's possible doesn't mean it's plausible. Players are not going to find machine shops and start making modifications.

 

3: I see it cycling the action. I don't see it reliably cycling the action, that's just what the ad copy says it will do and would require further testing to verify. It also says it's "restricted" which means no customer reviews.

 

1b: You wouldn't find subsonic 5.56 rounds in the game world, they don't fit the Chernarus setting,

 

4: survivors wouldn't attempt to create them either, their inclusion would be not at all believable.

 

5: That goes for subsonic cartridges for pretty much all other rifle calibers as well. One could come up with some kind of backstory to attempt to explain their presence but the same could be said for anything.

 

1a/b: Once again it isn't game logic if something actually exists in real life and you're straying back into the opinion/conflation trap.

 

2: You don't need a full shop to make modifications. Of the previous modifications I listed only trimming material off the BCG would require an actual machine.

 

Buffer spring: Stretch it out by hand and trim a few coils off with a pair of wire snips.

Buffer: Use a hammer and punch to drive out the roll pin and dump out the reciprocating weights.

Gas block replacement: Use a hammer and punch to remove old gas block and replace.

Gas system/barrel replacement: Same as above but also use wrench to remove barrel nut and swap barrels.

Gas port: Use a hand chuck with drill bit to open up the gas port in the barrel. (Note: While I would prefer a drill press, with care it is entirely feasible to do this with manual tools.)

Hammer spring: Bend and/or trim legs with wire snip.

 

3: Watch the video a few more times. If it wasn't functioning reliably the cyclic rate wouldn't be steady and uninterrupted. It would be erratic in timing, sluggish, and show evidence of short-stroking/being under gassed.

 

4: Again stating what other players will or wont do is your opinion and has no actual bearing on what actions they will or would like to take.

 

5: No. And just off the top of my head is a wonderful Russian round: 9x39mm.

Edited January 11, 2014 by Land Squid

[-Gews- 7443]

1a/b: Once again it isn't game logic if something actually exists in real life and you're straying back into the opinion/conflation trap.

It exists and like many other things it is rarely used.

"SOCOM13-005:"

"Today, there is no sub-sonic ammunition currently type classified for use in the calibers provided by any DoD Service... no current sub-sonic rifle round will consistently cycle the action on gas operated weapons."

 

That rules out the USMC explanation. Just because something exists doesn't mean it is likely to be seen. Same could be said for many other in-game items however (Payday masks, Magpul products, Colt Pythons).

 

 

2: You don't need a full shop to make modifications. Of the previous modifications I listed only trimming material off the BCG would require an actual machine.

 

Buffer spring: Stretch it out by hand and trim a few coils off with a pair of wire snips.

Buffer: Use a hammer and punch to drive out the roll pin and dump out the reciprocating weights.

Gas block replacement: Use a hammer and punch to remove old gas block and replace.

Gas system/barrel replacement: Same as above but also use wrench to remove barrel nut and swap barrels.

Gas port: Use a hand chuck with drill bit to open up the gas port in the barrel. (Note: While I would prefer a drill press, with care it is entirely feasible to do this with manual tools.)

Hammer spring: Bend and/or trim legs with wire snip.

If someone did all that to get SS to cycle their rifle would be unreliable with full power ammunition, overgassing, bolt bounce, premature wear, potential feeding problems... does not seem like a good tradeoff for the post-apocalyptic survivor.

3: Watch the video a few more times. If it wasn't functioning reliably the cyclic rate wouldn't be steady and uninterrupted. It would be erratic in timing, sluggish, and show evidence of short-stroking/being under gassed.

YouTube... I won't believe it's "reliable" until someone does actual tests on its reliability.

 

4: Again stating what other players will or wont do is your opinion and has no actual bearing on what actions they will or would like to take.

Not players, people in the real-life equivalent. It is an opinion but so is everything to do with this game.

 

5: No. And just off the top of my head is a wonderful Russian round: 9x39mm.

Which is a completely different animal... designed from the outset to be as effective as possible while remaining subsonic, used by several militaries, actually fairly popular in the Chechen wars... 9x39mm would make more sense to see than 5.56mm subsonic and as a subsonic cartridge it makes more sense as well.