Combatlogging, what it is, and how to prevent it

[phoboss 224]

Look at the date of the original post.

And besides, there are a billion threads about everything without any constructive feedback, so where is your problem with me giving this some actual thought and coming up with a solution?

Edited January 15, 2014 by phoboss

[scull 11]

Look at the date of the original post.

And besides, there are a billion threads about everything without any constructive feedback, so where is your problem with me giving this some actual thought and coming up with a solution?

What's wrong with so many people thinking rocket does not know what he Is doing .I don't know you tell me.?

Try the suggestions forum if that's really what your about

Edited January 15, 2014 by Scull

[phoboss 224]

Nobody said anything about him not knowing what he's doing. But one of the reasons for an open alpha test is, that you get MUCH more feedback about the game. You have literally a million people thinking about ways of how to improve the game, instead of the 20 people you have in the dev team. 

And it wouldn't be the first time that someone on the forums had an idea nobody in the dev team had thought of before and that then actually gets implemented. Sometimes your to close to see the solution. 

I'm not saying that this is the case here, or that I found the ultimate solution, I simply had an idea and I wrote it down to maybe, just maybe, inspire the dev team with some fresh thoughts.

It's definitely better than just whining about the problem. 

Edited January 15, 2014 by phoboss

[scull 11]

Nobody said anything about him not knowing what he's doing. But one of the reasons for an open alpha test is, that you get MUCH more feedback about the game. You have literally a million people thinking about ways of how to improve the game, instead of the 20 people you have in the dev team.

And it wouldn't be the first time that someone on the forums had an idea nobody in the dev team had thought of before and that then actually gets implemented. Sometimes your to close to see the solution.

I'm not saying that this is the case here, or that I found the ultimate solution, I simply had an idea and I wrote it down to maybe, just maybe, inspire the dev team with some fresh thoughts.

It's definitely better than just whining about the problem.

Yes true that is what the suggestions forum is for.

[phoboss 224]

Yes true that is what the suggestions forum is for.

True, if a mod would move this thread there, I'd be totally down with that ;)

 

But like I said, look at the date of my orignal post and then take a look at the first post in the suggestions forum. You'll come to the conclusion that that forum wasn't around when I created this thread ;)

At least I think it wasn't.

Edited January 15, 2014 by phoboss

[larky2k 9]

If you want to sort out Combat logging you need to sort out the cause. i.e Find a way to curb the amount of KoS in game. KoS=Combat logging

[phoboss 224]

I'm sorry but you're completely wrong. Read my initial posting. 

Especially the definition of combatlogging. 

 

Combatlogging is logging out of the game when your character is in danger of being detained, robbed, wounded or killed.

 

Being KoS'd is not the only reason people combatlog. They could combatloged because they're attacked by zombies, because someone is trying to rob them, because the got wounded in a firefight THEY started and a bunch of other reasons. "Fixing" KoS has no affect on combatlogging. (Besides KoS does not need "fixing". But thats something for another thread)

[larky2k 9]

KoS is the cause of combat logging. Because everyone you meet kills you with out warning. People get fed up and log the minute they see anyone nearby. So you telling me if there was no KoS there would be still Combat logging. I was playing the game from day 1 and the first week KoS was rare. no threads whatsoever of combat loggers. Suddenly threads of KoS increased so did people moaning about people Combat logging. Im sorry but KoS is the cause of combat logging cause no one trusts anyone. 

[phoboss 224]

And I'm telling you, you're wrong. People combatlog because they don't want to die and lose all the gear they gathered. But you don't die just because people Kill on sight. If you attack me, and I fire back at you and you get wounded in the process, you can hardly call that KoS. But you'd still die and lose all your stuff, so you combatlog, go onto a new server, bandage, maybe use saline or blood bag with a friend and then come back to my server to hunt me down. 

KoS stands for kill on sight. which means killing someone as soon as you lay eyes on them. and that can not be (nor should they try) fixed. it's part of the game's mechanics. If you disagree, I'd encourage you to watch movies like "the road". people are ruthless when it comes to survival. and in this scenario its mostly kill or be killed. But its hardly the only reason people kill each other. And because of that, "fixing" KoS will have no effect on combatlogging. Even if they could fix KoS, which they can't, people would still combatlog, when they get wounded or are in danger of losing their gear (through death or robbery).

Edited January 15, 2014 by phoboss

[tacticalbacon76 2]

Dont for get about the Alt+F4 trick that gets around the timers

[phoboss 224]

Dont for get about the Alt+F4 trick that gets around the timers

I haven't. Read again. If you hit ALT+F4 or pull your network cable or whatever else, its considered a combatlog. And the appropriate mechanic comes into play.

[blooregardo 0]

Many of these proposals seem kind of draconian, and they give innocent players no cushion whatsoever.

 

In the even of a combat log, maybe something clientside could take note of any zombies that they alerted, then spawn the same amount of zombies in proximity next time the player logs in.

 

For the big wall of text below, I'd only be talking about clientside disconnects in the sense that the player has paused and clicked on the disconnect button, and isn't taking into account server crashes or connection issues. That will be addressed later in the post.

 

I think some punishments should really depend on the frequency of the offense. I like to play in short spurts between classes, and in a game like this, it's very easy to lose track of time, and sometimes more extreme cases of things that demand your attention like emergency bathroom breaks, et cetera.

So, another option, perhaps a better one, clientside disconnects would occur after starting a timer that increases with each server during a period of 24 hours (for example: 1st server, "30 seconds until disconnect" second server ~"7 minutes", third 20 minutes, fourth an hour, et cetera). If the player tries to disconnect in or very near, for example, an airfield or city, the timer is doubled. Server hopping in particular still technically be able to occur, but it would become tedious to the point that it would be self-defeating.

 

However, in the event of emergency, the player is allowed to skip once a day.

If a player has an honest reason to skip the timer, they could click an "It's an emergency" button (which would quit the game entirely rather than reurning to the menu) and disconnect without consequence. This would only occur under the condition that the player has only initiated a disconnect at most, once or twice that day. After one use, or if the player has disconnected too many times, if the player tries to skip the timer again within, say, 12 hours, that button is replaced with "I'm willing to lose my character". So there's potential for abuse, but very little. Potential combat loggers would still spawn with any zombies they alerted in the previous server still in the vicinity.

 

I suppose it still allows for abuse once a day, but it will at least make potential abusers think twice. If they have abused it and then an emergency strikes, they can still disconnect immediately, but they lose their character as a consequence for crying wolf.

 

As far as connection issues and server crashes*:

 

*(I don't know if the game has it's own way of differentiating client-side disconnects from server-side ones, such as a server crash or player being kicked, but I'm going on the uneducated assumption that it does)

 

If they have a low internet connection, why are they playing DayZ?
They could either pay for a better internet connection, join a closer server, or don't play at all.

~Just my 2 cents

 

Either you're forgetting to take into account that this is not an option for a lot of people, or you're content with the game being exclusively available to certain people. Which is a perfectly valid opinion for a player to have, but that's not an attitude game developers are supposed to have as it alienates potential customers.

 

If you live metropolitan area in Europe or the United States, sure. But in a more rural areas around the world, your options are limited between shit internet, and shit internet. Servicemen and women stationed overseas typically have unreliable internet connections as well. Even in the United States, an enormous amount of people stll use dial-up connections, and while dial-up friendly probably too much to ask for, I doubt the DayZ dev team would exclude a group of people that large willing to fork over $30 just because Comcast isn't available for them in the sticks.

 

To adress shitty connection, I think the game should allow spontaneous, forceful disconnects (bad connection or just unplugging the cable), but in the event of client-side disconnects, disallow the player from connecting to another server until a certain timer has passed. That way, if there's a server crash or some other server-side issue, the player isn't punished for it. If an honest player's connection shits out, they can attempt to rejoin the server and pick up where they left off, and if their connection is still too crappy to rejoin, then the timer won't even matter to them. And if a player is actually combat-logging, they have no choice but to return to that specific server until the timer expires.

[phoboss 224]

You can always disconnect from the game if you have to, just not while under attack or while fighting. I don't think thats unreasonable. This system punishes people for "cheating". Which combatlogging is. Your're cheating your way out of a death or robbery by disconnecting. If you have bad diarrhea, and have to leave right this instance then thats to bad, but why should my gaming experience suffer because you have to leave. 

Instead of a timer you could also go the other way around and say, as long as you're not in combat, you can exit immediately, but your char stays in game for 30 more seconds. This way you don't have to wait if you really need to leave this second, but you can't just run away from a confrontation.

 

At the end of the day, it doesn't really matter. Combatlogging will be addressed accordingly, and from what I can tell, you won't like it. 

But like I said in my original post, for a lot of people PvP is a big part of the game, and you cheating them of this experience by leaving instantly, is just wrong. Under normal circumstances everybody should have 15-30 seconds before logging out. If you don't then don't play DayZ. 

As for the 2 minutes while in combat, hell if it where up to me, I'd say you stay in the game for 10 minutes when you combatlog. But thats just my personal opinion. 

[ibKabob 2]

Ghosting, server hop farming, combat logging..... all due to the nature/design of public HIVE.  If servers were to manage the guns like the vehicles in the MOD, server hop would end .  Imagine coming back to the server you were just on after ghosting on another and you get a message, " Client state has changed since last known point! Do you want to check your Firearms at the Door? ".  If I had a server and I could implement gun control, I would.  No more hopping! Problem solved. 

 

Although problems created?

Some clients don't like being tied to a server?  I suggest multiple characters to allow people to use other servers instead of moving chararcter from server to server without penalty. Each chararter can have it own "home server". You could still hop but you won't have any guns when you do so.

[phoboss 224]

That is not a valuable option. Some people don't like private hives. They have a number of downsides not everyone is willing to accept. 

[ibKabob 2]

That is not a valuable option. Some people don't like private hives. They have a number of downsides not everyone is willing to accept. 

 

One either accepts those downsides or combat logging, ghosting, and farming,  will always be a part of the game, your timer won't get rid of it.

Note: vehicles have always been server dependent therefore advanced players will always return to that same server, so much for the public HIVE.

 

With my solution,  you can always leave your guns behind in a stash go to another server and get your other guns from the stash there. The stashes can be lined up on the map.   And, I don't prevent the player from moving to other servers, just their guns.

[phoboss 224]

One either accepts those downsides or combat logging, ghosting, and farming,  will always be a part of the game, your timer won't get rid of it.

No it wouldn't totally get rid of it, but it would bring it waaaaay down, to an acceptable level. Sure you can server hop, but you will eventually have to wait 15 minutes. If you're ok with that, go for it. 

Combatlogging would not work at all, and neither would ghosting. It would be impossible. Because once you switched the server, you can't go back to the last one you were playing on. 

[ibKabob 2]

Although I agree that a 15s logout timer will help, It won't "bring it waaaaaaay down"  and also, what is acceptable? I can still get server hop ghosted by some dink, in an area I scouted, and made sure was clean, and for the same reason, farming is still a major problem. Any idiot can get geared up with an M4 in a few hours then go "hunting" for bambi, which could be the server your on, total KOS and banditry comes from having no pain from dying and losing that easily acquired gear (made worse when people suicide until they get the spawn point they want to more easily retrieve their gear). People who play the game as intended are far more cautious than the majority of bandit A-hols running around Elektro  (I've always wondered why they seem so suicidal). Have you ever noticed that DAYZ is the ONLY (unlike BF3/4) game that has hundreds of servers all with a small handful of people in them? Hmmmmm... farm on!  All bandits go to high pop servers AFTER farming their equipment in low pop servers is my guess.     

[phoboss 224]

Well you either didn't read my entire post or you didn't understand it completely. 15s logout timer is for when you're not actually in combat. If you are involved in any kind of hostile action, you stay logged in a lot longer. And "server hop ghosted" is not a thing. Ghosting is when someone is under attack, changes the server, switches position and then comes back to the original server. But he can't do that with my solution because he's banned from the last server if he switches. 

And that someone logs in behind you could happen on a private hive as well... I log out in the barracks, take a break, come back in, right after you checked them. BOOM you're dead...

[ibKabob 2]

I can still ghost (sorry hop) the same position through multiple servers... is my point. You are looking only at a small facet of the problem.

Edited January 18, 2014 by ibKabob

[ibKabob 2]

Perhaps you can tell me why the public HIVE system is so wonderful?

[phoboss 224]

 

I can still ghost (sorry hop) the same position through multiple servers... is my point. You are looking only at a small facet of the problem.

Yes you could, but every time you switch, you'd have to wait a longer period of time before you can join another server (up to a 15 minute total). Would you be willing to do that? I'd guess most people wouldn't. And I'm not looking at only a small facet of the problem, you just seem to think its as simple as switching of the public hive.

 

 

Perhaps you can tell me why the public HIVE system is so wonderful?

Pros of the public hive include but are not limited to:

in case of performance issues or the server goes offline you can always switch the server

if the server turned off forever because the people paying for it, stop playing and don't rent the server anymore, you can just play on a different server (on a private hive all your stuff would be gone)

you can report admins that abuse their power for their own gain

[B!Z3 4]

i like the idea of 30 seconds for the  logout timer  and 2 minutes a ghost of urself sits in its place after you have logged out and anybody that would  alt+f4 to get around the timer  should be instantly killed .

[ibKabob 2]

 

 

Yes you could, but every time you switch, you'd have to wait a longer period of time before you can join another server (up to a 15 minute total). Would you be willing to do that? I'd guess most people wouldn't. And I'm not looking at only a small facet of the problem, you just seem to think its as simple as switching of the public hive.

 

 

Pros of the public hive include but are not limited to:

in case of performance issues or the server goes offline you can always switch the server

if the server turned off forever because the people paying for it, stop playing and don't rent the server anymore, you can just play on a different server (on a private hive all your stuff would be gone)

you can report admins that abuse their power for their own gain

 

Okay, now that you have just demonstrated why it sucked to fix up a chopper in the MOD just to have the admin ditch (which actually happened to me and this is going to be the same in SA by the way).  You should be able to see why treating the firearms like vehicles, tents, stashes, etc would be okay even with the public HIVE structure. I am not advocating private hive if you noticed, just gun control.  This could be done on server by server basis.

 

My guess is that you love taking those guns to other servers, right?  Well not being able to take your guns would be a better fix for those problems previously discussed. The timer will only work in some specific instances, not for others.  For example,   you are on Elektro's famous sniper hill taking shots at someone down in the city. I am on the other hill across from you, so my combat timer doesn't get turned on..... I ghost in behind you because it is only a minute wait with the timer.....BAM your dead.

Okay Okay make the timer longer right?  This kinda starts to get ridiculous, no?

 

Leaving the server adding additional minutes would hamper this but would make the game painfully slow for new players when finding a good server, I believe that this is a poor solution, but I will conceed that it would slow things down. 

 

Once you have a server you like then my solution seems to be/apply better.    Since the reasons for changing servers frequently are moot when considering vehicles,tents, stashes, etc. They keep you married to that server anyway.

[phoboss 224]

Ok first let me say that I never actually said that I like the public hive. I simply stated to benefits of it. As soon as the game is at a state where me and my friends decided it's worth it, we will be setting up our own (private hive) server. Because we believe the pros outweigh the cons. 

So no, I do not like the public hive very much.

 

Secondly you just proved my point that you did not understand my idea. I stated several times now that my solution makes ghosting IMPOSSIBLE! You can not go back to the server you last played on as soon as you switch to a new one.  So you can server hop (to a certain degree), but if you go from server A to server B, in order to change position and ghost someone, once you joined server B, you cannot go back to Server A for 15 minutes. Good luck ghosting someone with a 15 minute delay.

Edited January 18, 2014 by phoboss