The topic of realism and player killing

[maddogx 10]

Is "The Walking Dead" not realistic?

Yes. You know how in walking dead peope's loyalties to each other are constantly put to the test' date=' up to and including killing each other just for a chance at surviving a little longer? Do you remember when they encounter other survivors whose intentions they are unsure of? You know how those are the most compelling parts of the story, those tense moments when you as the reader/watcher are also unaware of what's going to happen?

Is "28 Days/Months Later" not realistic?

Yes. Do you remember the part in 28 Days Later when they finally arrive at the military base and supposed safety, only to realize that the men inside cannot be trusted in any way? They grow suspicious, and then fearful, finally culminating in sexual violence and the iconic scene in the movie which is not zombie-on-human but human-on-human violence.

Do you get it? That a central theme there is that humans in this situation would be every bit as dangerous, savage and unpredictable as the infected? That's, like, a central theme to the entire film and something rocket has captured incredibly well in just a short period of time.

Is "The Road" not realistic?

Did you read The Road? Did you get to the parts where people eat each other to survive? Did you get to the parts where they encountered other humans and were so afraid that at one point they inadvertantly murder a man in fear for their own safety? Remember?

Once again we see the theme of uncertainty, and inhumanity that results form the struggle for survival and fear for ones wellbeing.

My belief is that people just dont play the way they would navigate a zombie apocalypse in real life, and just utilize the game as a pvp fps zombie game

Okay, so what? Does everyone have to play the game exactly like you in order for you to enjoy it? Why not find people who think like you, group up with them, set some goals and begin accomplishing them. The other people in the game, the ones who are completely free to play the game they want to play, will make things more interesting for you and your friends in a lot of ways. Let them. It's not a bad thing if you have to play strategically or think about your own personal safety before you go wandering off into the wilderness.

Why do you think there is such a big gap in what media portrays, and what people project in this game?

There's not?

ZedsDeadBaby nails it in every single paragraph. Kudos.

[stevejeon 0]

Bowie and Crockett would have killed each other for a can of beans...

That's kinda depressing.

[fml 29]

Yes. You know how in walking dead peope's loyalties to each other are constantly put to the test' date=' up to and including killing each other just for a chance at surviving a little longer? Do you remember when they encounter other survivors whose intentions they are unsure of? You know how those are the most compelling parts of the story, those tense moments when you as the reader/watcher are also unaware of what's going to happen?

Yes. Do you remember the part in 28 Days Later when they finally arrive at the military base and supposed safety, only to realize that the men inside cannot be trusted in any way? They grow suspicious, and then fearful, finally culminating in sexual violence and the iconic scene in the movie which [b']is not zombie-on-human but human-on-human violence.

Do you get it? That a central theme there is that humans in this situation would be every bit as dangerous, savage and unpredictable as the infected? That's, like, a central theme to the entire film and something rocket has captured incredibly well in just a short period of time.

Did you read The Road? Did you get to the parts where people eat each other to survive? Did you get to the parts where they encountered other humans and were so afraid that at one point they inadvertantly murder a man in fear for their own safety? Remember?

Once again we see the theme of uncertainty, and inhumanity that results form the struggle for survival and fear for ones wellbeing.

Okay, so what? Does everyone have to play the game exactly like you in order for you to enjoy it? Why not find people who think like you, group up with them, set some goals and begin accomplishing them. The other people in the game, the ones who are completely free to play the game they want to play, will make things more interesting for you and your friends in a lot of ways. Let them. It's not a bad thing if you have to play strategically or think about your own personal safety before you go wandering off into the wilderness.

There's not?

Yes I remember that in walking dead. What I don't remember is everyone shooting eachother on sight, in every instance. Rick went from being completely alone, to having a group of 12 or so people. How many humans did he kill along the way? 2. How many did he kill on sight? 0. And of course they were unsure of peoples motives, my point is that specific element isn't in the game. You already know their motives. They are just going to kill you no matter what you have or how big of a threat you are.

Yes I remember that in 28 days later. Do you also remember where the men didnt shoot the survivors on sight? Do you also remember where they contacted a guy on the radio and attempted to meet up with him?Although they were paranoid, do you remember when they finally got there and the guy let the people in, without shooting them when he first saw them? Do you remember when in the beginning of the movie when the girl did not kill the guy when she first saw him? You get my point? You can cherry pick your examples all you want. The fact it, they are not killing people 99% of the time. They actually find out their intentions, and sometimes, they join eachother.

No, everyone does not have to play the game exactly like me in order for me to enjoy it. Maybe you should direct that post to the 1st person only thread.

I never said everyone needs to not shoot me on site. I never said everyone needs to work together and stop the violence. All I ever said is co-operation is a central theme to zombie apocolypse, and shoot on sight is a central theme to CoD or counterstrike. Currently, dayz is purely shoot on sight. Is shoot on sight in any of the mentioned examples? No. Even in the road he shoots out of fear of his life, not sport.

I dont understand why this is so hard to grasp.

[maddogx 10]

I dont understand why this is so hard to grasp.

What's hard to grasp is the point you're trying to make.

You're essentially complaining that people aren't behaving the way you expect them to behave. So... what?

Human behaviour is what it is. If people want to kill you for sport, that sucks, but it's also life. Calling this behaviour "unrealistic" because you saw people acting differently on a TV show is not going to make people act differently in game, but it seems this is exactly what you are trying to achieve.

ZedsDeadBaby is accusing you of wanting everyone to play like you because that's basically how you're coming across.

[istari766 0]

The reason people wouldn't kill each other IRL is because of having a conscience or because they are desperate for human interaction i.e. they are lonely. However this is a game, and with all games, these things get thrown out the window for many people. The only people that would be playing "how they should be" are people that enjoy role playing, which is usually a minority.

So how do you "fix" this problem.

Well you could implement penalties for people who don't conform to this "realistic" way of playing, or you could give benefits to people who do. None of these implementations would be particularly realistic mind you. But would nudge people in one direction or another.

Personally I am a a fan of benefits for team players, I think team work should be useful. But I don't think it should punish solo players, simply make it harder for them to accomplish certain things. And I think it should be amoral, that is, it should benefit bandit groups just as much as friendly groups. But that is my opinion.

[fml 29]

I dont understand why this is so hard to grasp.

What's hard to grasp is the point you're trying to make.

You're essentially complaining that people aren't behaving the way you expect them to behave. So... what?

Human behaviour is what it is. If people want to kill you for sport' date=' that sucks, but it's also life. Calling this behaviour "unrealistic" because you saw people acting differently on a TV show is not going to make people act differently in game, but it seems this is exactly what you are trying to achieve.

ZedsDeadBaby is accusing you of wanting everyone to play like you because that's basically how you're coming across.

[/quote']

Thats not what I am trying to "achieve". Its an example that you all can relate to because you've seen it before. In real life would you walk shoot the first person you see? That is not how I am coming across at all. You guys are just so brainwashed and biased that its what you guys want to believe, so you can feel superior or like your are playing the game "the right way" The mentality here is "I live and he dies so I win and I am smarter" "Oh look at this guy wanting to team up, he must suck. I think he sucks therefore

a. He is a carebear

b. He wants everyone to hold hands and bandits to be beacons of light so everyone knows they are coming for a mile away.

okay i really did just give up mid post im done forever bye kiddos.

all I request is that you not enforce your own agenda on it and try to realize rockets goal. Have you guys even watch rockets e3 interview in its entirety? Of course not. You dont even have to reply to this post with a lie. We already know. It shows.

Have a good day everybody.

[maddogx 10]

Personally I am a a fan of benefits for team players' date=' I think team work should be useful. But I don't think it should punish solo players, simply make it harder for them to accomplish certain things. And I think it should be amoral, that is, it should benefit bandit groups just as much as friendly groups. But that is my opinion.

[/quote']

Hmm, I think we need to differentiate between solo vs. team play and COOP vs. PVP, because those are different issues. Not all solo players are murderers, just as not all team players are universally friendly.

Rewarding cooperative play is probably the right way to go about it, I'd say. Although I'm not opposed to measures that punish murderers in some way - though it would have to be subtle. Skin changes and map markers are off the table for me.

I dont understand why this is so hard to grasp.

What's hard to grasp is the point you're trying to make.

You're essentially complaining that people aren't behaving the way you expect them to behave. So... what?

Human behaviour is what it is. If people want to kill you for sport' date=' that sucks, but it's also life. Calling this behaviour "unrealistic" because you saw people acting differently on a TV show is not going to make people act differently in game, but it seems this is exactly what you are trying to achieve.

ZedsDeadBaby is accusing you of wanting everyone to play like you because that's basically how you're coming across.

[/quote']

Thats not what I am trying to "achieve". Its an example that you all can relate to because you've seen it before. In real life would you walk shoot the first person you see? That is not how I am coming across at all. You guys are just so brainwashed and biased that its what you guys want to believe, so you can feel superior or like your are playing the game "the right way" The mentality here is "I live and he dies so I win and I am smarter" "Oh look at this guy wanting to team up, he must suck. I think he sucks therefore

a. He is a carebear

b. He wants everyone to hold hands and bandits to be beacons of light so everyone knows they are coming for a mile away.

okay i really did just gave up mid post im done forever bye kiddos.

all I request is that you not enforce your own agenda on it and try to realize rockets goal. Have you guys even watch rockets e3 interview in its entirety? Of course not. You dont even have to reply to this post with a lie. We already know. It shows.

Have a good day everybody.

You seem to be mistaking me for someone who murders everyone else on sight. Stop getting so upset. It shows.

[Refried 14]

hollywood has NEVER accurately depicted human nature and using movies/tv as a basis for reality is just insane

the fact that i even have to point that out makes me incredibly sad

bottom line: scared humans are dangerous humans. go look up friendly fire numbers for any given conflict.

[Powermolch 3]

Bye.

And as said. Most of us team up AND kill strangers AND Achieve Goals like Raiding Towns and Airfields, Building Bases and Vehicles.

There is no OR. Its AND.

[zombieballs 0]

Bye.

And as said. Most of us team up AND kill strangers AND Achieve Goals like Raiding Towns and Airfields' date=' Building Bases and Vehicles.

There is no OR. Its AND.

[/quote']

yeah being a survivor is stupid. bandit fps style is the only way to go. its how you get places!

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

Yeah, dude. Sorry. You shot your entire argument in the foot by referencing all the film and literature you did - which all include both instances of human cooperation AND brutal, unforgiving inhumanity.

The Road is especially appropriate because their encounters with humans early in the book - the cannibals who literally hunt them as meat - color and influence their encounter with the man later in the book who shoots the man in the leg with an arrow at first sight. The Man is literally "shot on sight" in The Road by a man who is afraid to allow them to approach - even though he's not sure if they are friendly - and later is murdered as a result. Yet you pony it up as evidence that such things should be disallowed or discouraged in the game? You could not have picked a better story to emulate the experience you have in DayZ of finding some lone people to cooperate with, but mostly being constantly afraid that you might not survive your next encounter with a survivor.

The same is true in 28 Days Later. Yes, you have humans with whom you cooperate - but you also have rapists and murderers who may not "shoot on sight" but they take a guy out in the woods and execute him, then they try to move on to the rape only to be murdered themselves!

How can you fail to admit that rocket has done an almost uncanny job capturing exactly this kind of dynamic - small groups of survivors who trust each other, but who move among many other survivors and groups whose intentions are unclear? Violence is incredibly common, both for survival and for other reasons.

Even the experience of building a group in the game emulates this literature amazingly. You can have a very small group of trusted friends, but if you try to make a very large, diverse group of people you might not trust implicitly, then all of a sudden you start to get suspicious of people even in your group. Are they who they say they are? Are their intentions true?

The fact that you use these films and literature as an example of why the game should be altered in a way that would make these kinds of stories LESS common and LESS intense, heart-pounding, frustrating and brutal is infuriating to me, honestly. On a very real level I am angry at you for trying to use this material to argue against DayZ's design when it, in fact, does an amazing job recreating the experience of the characters in all of them.

---

yeah being a survivor is stupid. bandit fps style is the only way to go. its how you get places!

Registered today? Cool, man. Welcome to the forums and discussion. Is this the general quality of post I should expect from you, or more of a one-off kind of "I'm just going to act like a retard for a quick second" kind of post? Just want to know what to expect in the coming weeks from the likes of "zombieballs" as he critiques DayZ's design with his insight and sharp wit.

[zombieballs 0]

op is an idiot! this game is fps not rpg. if you see someone youre gonna got shot

[zombieballs 0]

Funny you mentioned the road. It has exactly the same feeling as DayZ.

Trust No One!

Shoot on Sight or Hide and run if you can!

Steal if you can and survive yourself.

Sometimes trust somebody' date=' give him something to eat but get the fuck away then.

Or as Fallen Earth states: Life is cheap, Bullets are expensive.

[/quote']

if this has the same feeling as dayz then dayz has taken a wrong turn. do you even know what rocket plans for this game? He stated he doesnt want it to be shoot on sight. You are only proving op point

[Powermolch 3]

Im not sure if you arent the OPs fake account anyway. You registered after he said he is leaving the forums and are answering in the same threads with a more aggressive manner.

[xximrtwoixx 104]

Look at the groups in the referenced materials; they largely consist of people who had existing relationships prior to society's break down. In the case of the walking dead these subgroups merged into a larger less cohesive group. They don't trust outsiders of their core group. This is nearly exactly what happens in Day Z now, players play with people they already know. It would be the same IRL, you would group up with family/friends not random people you meet.

Do you Trust a complete stranger now?

Would you trust them more knowing there would be no consequences to their actions other than those you or your group could impose on them; and knowing that they want/need everything you own?

Media will never show shoot on sight as the norm or prevalent interaction between people in an apocalyptic scenario because it would disconnect you from the protagonist if they were the shooter. Or if they were not the shooter it would mean the protagonists death, or become repetitive as a plot device. Thus citing entertainment media as "realistic" is a flawed argument.

Day Z or a IRL "Without Rule of Law" scenario perfectly represents "Game Theory" interaction. People are pitted against each other for a finite amount of resources in a zero sum scenario. Resources are not exactly finite in Day Z as they respawn, but looting them off a corpse is guaranteed vs random spawns just as IRL it would be guaranteed to take something from someone vs trying to find it yourself. In a survival scenario supplies are your main focus and Day Z perfectly represents this, nearly all interactions in the game revolve around obtaining something. I need food, bandages, morphine, guns, car parts etc. Other players are a source of materials, either directly, or indirectly. When they are dead they don’t have a chance to loot the location you want to loot. This is survival in the natural state, there is not enough for everyone, bottom line.

In this environment people will act in whatever way they believe maximizes their success. This closely resembles the "Natural State" as indicated in prior posts, life becomes nasty brutish and short.

In combat initiative is the greatest advantage thus shoot on site/stalking will occur as people learn that shooting someone unawares will greatly increase their chances of survival. Add to this the fact that it’s easier to loot a corpse than rob a living person conflict over resources will lead to murder rather quickly. You could argue that people refuse to give up their gear when robberies are attempted because they don't really value their life but they are simply making a rational decision based on the fact that they would be gearless either way.

The biggest factor and to me the only one that one could argue increases shoot on sight or general violence is that people have a chance to learn and evolve because it is a game. This learning curve is dependent on the player but sooner or later everyone goes from "Rick" to "Shane". I think this closely resembles reality in that as time goes on in a "Without Rule of Law" scenario people become more and more jaded. The only difference is the weak/dumb simply never get weeded out. Because everyone can respawn and there is no option of bugging in every player will go through this evolution and be exposed to this cycle of violence, so there are 25-50 "Shanes" running around every server before you know it.

Lastly there is the "Perma Death" function that adds to the cycle of violence, respawned players are not only distrustful of each other they also become vengeful. "I've gotten murdered X times so I'm going to murder whoever I see." This is common in any Perma Death game and to me what incites so much emotion and tension to a game. Hell it made Tom Clancy's End War entertaining even.

There is your explanation of why in both DAY Z and IRL shoot on site would be the norm rather than the exception; it’s just so much easier. Good luck with your evolution "Rick".