The value of a character

[elLoCo 154]

Hasn't this already been discussed over and over? I'm more than sure I heard Rocket say that he was planning to something close to this when the time comes. Obviously there are priorities so it will take quite a while.

Yes, Rocket said something like that in a DevBlog vid, but we can make suggestions how it could be implemented.

Don't forget we are alpha testers :D

[floj 393]

I'm not really comfortable about learning through books. Yes it is the common thing in RPGs to level your character but it has not much to do with real work.

 

I could accept that you are limited to a certain amount of traits, but I am totally sure that you would play different if you had more to lose than just your gear.

 

What i also would propose for the ability you spawn with is, that it is random.

So you can't just kill yourself because your buddy needs an engineer right now.

 

For the grinding aspect:

I think there are some lines of code that for example hinder you to just shoot you friend in the leg in order to learn how to bandage better and so on.

 

- People would just kill themselves over and over to get the right spawn type if you don't give them the starting choice UNLESS there's such a large number of initial spawn types that you'd have to spend hours finding zombies/bandits to kill you that number of times... maybe have different varieties of spawn within each class - to steal from my earlier example - nurse/GP/field doctor/surgeon could all be various classes of medic - not necessarily in a hierarchical sense (ie one's not necessarily better than the other) but diferent in terms of starting gear and specific skills: Nurses can bandage waaaay quicker than a surgeon can, especially for more mundane injuries (minor lacerations etc) but might spawn with less in the way of prescription meds or be less effective at more advanced medicine (using antibiotics, healing gunshot wounds), field medics would be amazing for the gunshot wounds, but not so good in terms of healing infections or general sickness... likewise for mechanic/technician you might have a NASA engineer, your day-to-day sparky, car mechanic or someone from the local mobile phone repair shop.

 

- I disagree with purely learning from repetition of a task, sure it might be able to improve you a small amount, but it in no way matches learning the small tricks and tips you pick up from watching a master work. Maybe have a small increase in skill attainable from purely repeating the task, a larger increase from repeating AFTER reading a textbook on the matter or a very large increase from assisting a master and then repeating the task yourself (which still wouldn't make you a master, but pretty damn close).

 

- I think grinding won't be too much of a matter once resources and infections are balanced properly, shooting (or more likely slashing) your friend in the leg repeatedly will just end up in wasted bandages and sterilisation/antibiotic ingredients - so far I haven't had a single instance of infection from using torn up rags and have found a surplus of medical supplies to treat this...

 

Some other subcategorisations off the top of my head:

 

day hiker/mountain climber/scout leader/mountain rescue (probably a bit too risque for the press to actually have scouts themselves being butchered in Chernarus, although it'd be a bit Battle Royaleish - awesome film)

dinnerlady/kitchen porter/chef/Heston Blumenthal

regular police/armed police/private/marine/sas

[101anavirn 36]

I think this is a great idea! I can picture it now, Groups of people coming together to help survive in the apocalypse, bringing their own unique skills to help form and grow a community.

 

But also in the deep shadows of chernarus, the bandits gather in force.. to destroy these communities.

 

 

WHY ARE WE NOT FUNDING THIS!

[The Legit Pie 18]

How about a system there is a skill tree (With no amazing perks like 30% chance of not shooting a bullet) but every time you do something, like gather wood or reassemble a gun or apply a bandage you gain a point towards that skill

So say after applying 50 bandages you can improve your skill making you apply bandages slightly faster or making blood bags give more blood, or we could move it on so that someone that focuses on mechanics can use more damaged parts to repair vehicles?

And maybe a counter class system where say a mechanic is less talented in the art of medicine?

[No Classes PLEASE 5]

i usually don't post on game forums but i care a lot about the direction of this game and i have to get my two cents in here; for the love of god, DO NOT ADD CLASSES TO THIS GAME!

when i read the OP i was expecting him to get flamed off the forums for this kind of suggestion and was disturbed to see how much support it garnered (albeit i imagine the forum population isn't huge right now, especially given that this is a paid alpha). classes bring a lot of problems with them and are the kiss of death for a game like this.

i don't want to derail this discussion by turning it into a debate about other games, but i do want to compare DayZ with another game that it has a lot in common with; Darkfall. the original Darkfall was a full loot, FFA PvP game with item decay and emphasis on resources and gear like DayZ, but in a fantasy setting instead of a modern post-apocalyptic zombie infection scenario. everyone had access to everything, all spell schools, crafting professions, etc. it had a steep skill grind, but there were no classes. the devs of that game had promised an expansion that was going to improve a lot of the systems already in the game and fix a lot of problems (macroing, scripting, hacking, bunnyhopping). what wound up happening is they scrapped the expansion entirely, and decided to make a new game on a new engine. long story short, they completely lost sight of the original vision of their game that was so unique and loved by many, that the new game turned out to be a much WORSE version of the original game, with missing features, dumbed down gameplay systems, worse performance, safe zones and a class system. and guess what they've been spending all their time doing with all these critical issues to tackle (besides marketing to Asia as a F2P in a last ditch effort to keep themselves alive)? Balancing classes. the game is a monumental failure and is broken beyond repair.

luckily you guys seem to actually be using a better engine, and the performance is actually quite impressive for an alpha. i've played betas in far worse shape. but the minute you add classes to a game like this you're introducing a whole new slew of problems. for one, theres always going to be that one class thats just better than the rest. that means the devs have to dedicate a lot of time to balancing classes, when they could be spending that time on adding more features, zones, improving performance, or any number of other things that would make the game better. that power may shift to a different class from time to time, but its pretty much an ongoing problem for the life of the game.

 

that's the beauty of a classless, everyone-can-do-everything system. you don't have to worry about tweaking the power of different roles and waste precious development time that could be better spent elsewhere. it's naturally balanced because everyone can do everything, your only limitation is the supplies you have on hand. also, do you really want to be dependant on other players to be effective in the game? i know a lot of people roll with clans etc, like any game of this type, but what about when you're playing by yourself, or solo players? do you really want to have to use 10 bandages to successfully stop your bleeding when you got nicked by a zombie that lunged at you from around a corner, because your skill is too low? or worse yet, not even have the ability to stop your bleeding at all because you decided to be a pilot instead of a medic? by adding classes your going to introduce the whole 'tank/healer' problem. everyones going to be running around as the soldier, few will be playing the medic, and even fewer will want to be that cook or pilot.

i don't understand why everyone thinks this will stop or even reduce KoS. KoS will always be a major part of this game, and for most the norm. classes or not. it's the nature of a full loot PvP game. in fact as others on this forum have pointed out, it IS the end game. its what you do once you've got your gear and maybe some buddies (that or robbing people, but how long are you really going to be satisfied running around with a bunch of gear guns and ammo and not shooting someone?). i do think the game could benefit from a little more incentive to not shoot someone on sight, maybe some kind of triggered events that are tuned to require multiple people to complete with improved or unique loot rewards? i don't know, i'm all about adding more depth to the game as long is it doesn't stray too far from the original formula, but classes are not the answer. to me, the fact that most people DO want to kill you is part of what makes the game so great. you constantly have to be on your toes and aware of your surroundings.

the game isn't about killing zombies, it's about killing people, taking their stuff and not getting killed in the process. i think anyone that plays this game thinking its not a PvP game and just a survival sim is kidding themselves. if you really have a problem with KoS i think you're playing the wrong game.

 

please, devs, if you read this, DON'T make the same mistake Aventurine made with Darkfall. maintain the integrity of your original vision, don't sell your soul for a shot at the masses. from what i've gathered you have sold a lot of copies for a fairly expensive paid alpha (which i'm enjoying a lot i might add), and there's a reason for that; people want this kind of game. 200,000 people didn't buy this game for classes, i promise you. in fact i'd bet my bottom dollar a significant amount of those people wouldn't have bought it at all if they ever even heard that word in relation to this game.

 

if you absolutely have to do it, go with the skill book idea, or some kind of perk system, but make the benefits very minimal and affect things like speed of application and control of a vehicle, or the amount of food cooked, whatever, but largely inconsequentual. but anybody should be able to do anything effectively, the main barrier being whether they're using proper quality materials versus makeshift.

 

PLEASE DON'T ADD CLASSES!

Edited December 30, 2013 by No Classes PLEASE

[Ubernaut 297]

Wow, okay. I definitely understand and respect what you're saying here, but I don't think a basic class or profession system would necessarily be the "kiss of death" for DayZ. It should only encourage more team-based play; which, if you haven't tried playing DayZ as a part of a group, is a lot of fun.

[DevilDog (DayZ) 455]

As long as "classes" don't limit what a player can do there is no issue. Lets say this for instance. You have skills and any player can do any skill. So it could go like this.

 

(This is dumbed down only using very few examples just to illustrate my point)

Skills- (Each skill has 10 'levels')

Medical- Increases speed of medical applications

Mechanical- Increases speed of mechanical applications

Rifles- Increases reload speed, decreased wear

Pistols- Increases reload speed, decreased wear

 

Keep in mind, the more you do something the better your skill becomes, regardless of what "class" you are. Now 3 classes you can choose from.

 

Medic/EMT- Med 2, Mech 1, Rifles 0, Pistols 0

Soldier- Rifles 2, Pistols 1, Med 0, Mech 0

Cop- Pistol 2, Med1, Mech 0, Rifles 0

 

So you start with a little boost towards certain skills, but nothing stops you from going in any direction when you are playing. Started as a Medic and want to get better mech skills, go do it.

 

As long as the boosts are small and don't limit/hinder later game play I think it would be fine.

[Ubernaut 297]

Devildog, how exactly would that sort of setup encourage teamwork, though? If I can do everything already, I still have no use for anyone else beyond safety in numbers and bloodbagging.

 

Maybe Rocket did get it right the first time. Maybe we don't need any of this after all. I've just been playing with a group of three, and thought it would be neat if each individual had something unique that they brought to the table to make us depend on one another and others would have a reason to seek out friends.

[Etherimp 1323]

I have a different take on this idea...

 

Make books valuable..

 

Maybe in Garages, you could find "An Introductory Guide to Mechanics", and by "using" this book, you could then unlock the ability to repair vehicles..

 

Maybe in Hangers, you could find "An Advanced Guide to Aircraft Mechanics", and you could unlock the ability to repair aircraft..

 

Maybe in Hospitals, you could find Medical books, which upon using would give you the understanding to give transfusions and use more advanced medical treatments, such as Defibs, etc.

 

Maybe you could find Survivalist guides in survivor camps or tree stands which would allow you to craft traps, or other survival type items out of common household stuff..

 

Maybe in Schools, you could rarely find any one of the books above..

 

Maybe there could be additional books with more advanced training to be taken from them.

 

Maybe every character could start with a random "ability" pre-learned, to reflect their background.. maybe it could give you hints to this background in  your journal.

 

Maybe ANY character could have some limited ability to do any of this stuff, but with a high chance of failure... so if you attempt to repair a vehicle engine but you're unsure of your characters skill level in this area, you could potentially destroy the engine in the process of repairing, and thus waste valuable time/resources.. Maybe without medical knowledge you could actually make someones condition worse by treating them.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Etherimp

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

Not a bad idea, but the devs have avoided these kind of game ideas - an to me that's a big part of what makes DayZ work.

Personally, I'd prefer 'soft skills' that develop as your player goes along and repeats activities. These would be more subtle modifiers (e.g. improved reloading time with practice, improved aim after shooting different weapons, getting fitter with repeat running allowing longer run times before fatigue, greater likelihood of success with suturing/IV line placement after practice), and also some negative effects (e.g. poor physical condition if you don't keep your nutrition in line with energy expenditure, increased susceptibility to illness if malnourished). This allows for a more organic development of a specialisation (e.g. medic, mechanic, soldier, hunter) as the survivor goes along. Also allows for lone wolf players to be generalist enough to do the basics in lots of areas.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Roshi

[landfish 62]

Weird, I posted a topic that is exactly the same as this, http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/159177-classes-in-dayz/#entry1597454. Maybe my topic was harder to read? or maybe the title probably throws off a lot of people, lol. Anyway, I'm completely behind this idea.

 

But, all professions should be accessible to everybody, even if they've already picked a profession. Maybe limit the amount of mastery they gain from their second profession. For example, a doctor can still learn to drive but not to a degree that a mechanic can. This is just so everyone has different advantages and disadvantages, and they need to work together to combat those disadvantages.  

 

This will open up ecological relationships in DayZ, like mutualism, parasitic etc.

Edited December 30, 2013 by landfish

[Manpooshute 0]

I have a suspicion that this very idea is potentially in effect already with the books, being used right now as "placecards" for future utilization.

If it's not being implemented, then it should be. 

 

But I'm pretty confident that there will be something like this in the next 12 months rolled out.

 

I recall hearing or reading a comment from rocket about this, farming, economy ...industry etc ...

 

There is "hopefully" a lot to look forward to in the next 6-12 months

[DevilDog (DayZ) 455]

Devildog, how exactly would that sort of setup encourage teamwork, though? If I can do everything already, I still have no use for anyone else beyond safety in numbers and bloodbagging.

 

Maybe Rocket did get it right the first time. Maybe we don't need any of this after all. I've just been playing with a group of three, and thought it would be neat if each individual had something unique that they brought to the table to make us depend on one another and others would have a reason to seek out friends.

I don't think that group survival thing would really work in this game. Everyone has to have weapon skills, so everyone would end up being a medic, other than your odd mechanic here and there.

 

I think it would be a cool idea for a certain game, but I don't want to be restricted (I'd still play of course).

 

 

I do like the idea of books though. Maybe not to learn skills but at least requiring a manual for a specific vehicle to fix it. Lots of great ideas, I just hope what ever they implement does not change the game.

[landfish 62]

This suggestion also adds quite a value to your character, also, imagine the increase in communications and team work in public hives. I don't think anyone is willing to shoot a doctor if they're suffering from cholera.

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

Regarding the books, it would be great if they provided practical instructions you actually had to follow rather than a skill buff system. That would be a great way to bridge the gap between people without much knowledge in an area (e.g. medicine, mechanics) and those with some real world knowledge.

[landfish 62]

 

 

I think it would be a cool idea for a certain game, but I don't want to be restricted (I'd still play of course).

There should be a fine difference between learning and mastery. You should still be able to learn the skills of a doctor but I don't think you'll ever be better at medicines than someone who have been a doctor their whole life. 

[No Classes PLEASE 5]

Not a bad idea, but given the focus the devs have had on avoiding these kind of game ideas.

 

Personally, I'd prefer 'soft skills' that develop as your player goes along and repeats activities. These would be more subtle modifiers (e.g. improved reloading time with practice, improved aim after shooting different weapons, getting fitter with repeat running allowing longer run times before fatigue, greater likelihood of success with suturing/IV line placement after practice), and also some negative effects (e.g. poor physical condition if you don't keep your nutrition in line with energy expenditure, increased susceptibility to illness if malnourished). This allows for a more organic development of a specialisation (e.g. medic, mechanic, soldier, hunter) as the survivor goes along. Also allows for lone wolf players to be generalist enough to do the basics in lots of areas.

a skill system like this would be much more appropriate and more in line with this type of game than a crappy class system. what all the people that support classes don't seem to understand is classes will never be balanced and on an even keel; one class will always be more powerful and useful than another. its just the nature of the system. it works better in some games than others, but people are always going to gravitate to the most powerful and accessible one.

[DevilDog (DayZ) 455]

Regarding the books, it would be great if they provided practical instructions you actually had to follow rather than a skill buff system. That would be a great way to bridge the gap between people without much knowledge in an area (e.g. medicine, mechanics) and those with some real world knowledge.

I like that, but it would be a matter of time before I just went to WIki to read them all.

[DevilDog (DayZ) 455]

There should be a fine difference between learning and mastery. You should still be able to learn the skills of a doctor but I don't think you'll ever be better at medicines than someone who have been a doctor their whole life. 

I could get on board with that. So using my earlier example, if all skills are ranked 0-10. A medic/emt can start at Medical 2 and can go up to 10. While a soldier would start "Medical" with 0 and could go to 8 or something.

 

That is not too bad. I think to make Mechanic more useful you would need less wear and tear if a mechanic drives.

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

I like that, but it would be a matter of time before I just went to WIki to read them all.

True - I guess a similar situation exists for the map. But hey - you'd still have to look the stuff up and you might learn something :)

[gannon46 788]

i agree if we had some sort of specializations like the more you healed someone the more efficent u get like more blood restored, or my favorite the more u repair vehicles the faster you repair or at least put on tires( that guy would never get murdered LOL). but like you said spawn with some basic knowledge but can advance in doing things and reading books. but no damn xp bar noooooooooooooooooo but nontheless i don't know how it can be implemented with out one. skyrim maybe? and there should be absolutely no combat experience perks bull crap making your recoil lower by killing 100 survivors combat is your skill your mind needs to stay that way.

Edited December 30, 2013 by gannon46

[Roshi (DayZ) 397]

and there should be absolutely no combat experience perks bull crap making your recoil lower by killing 100 survivors combat is your skill your mind needs to stay that way.

I think there is something to be said for improved proficiency with a weapon with repeated use - that is the basis of any motor learning. I would expect it to be linked to expended rounds, not kills - if bullets are relatively rare then improving weapon handling becomes a trade off with conserving ammo. Any effects should be subtle - maybe give you a bit of an edge.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Roshi

[Etherimp 1323]

I think there is something to be said for improved proficiency with a weapon with repeated use - that is the basis of any motor learning. I would expect it to be linked to expended rounds, not kills - if bullets are relatively rare then improving weapon handling becomes a trade off with conserving ammo. Any effects should be subtle - maybe give you a bit of an edge.

 

Just no.. 

 

This is wrong for the same reason that the argument about keeping weapon dispersion high just because our "characters" are supposedly "civilians" with no training, rather than military.

 

Guns should have realistic mechanics, period.. The player behind the gun is the only factor which decides how accurate they are or how well they control recoil, etc.

 

 

The only type of stuff I can see this applying to is like.. the ability to attach weapon modifications or possibly a small bonus on reload time (which is already short.)

Edited December 31, 2013 by Etherimp

[Dauntless (DayZ) 9]

So you'd like for DayZ to be more about cooperation than 24/7 Deathmatch?

 

Sounds too far-fetched for the community.

[combatcomm1 234]

 Time survived stats, learned skills, beards etc. If losing your gear is the only thing that sucks about dieing in the game then why the hell would anyone let someone hold them up?? If a bandit takes all or most of your good gear then isn't it pretty much the same as if they had shot you in the first place? 

 

If I have a group of 7 bandits holding me up and I am risking, dieing, losing my current time survived stat, beard or whatever, then yah, I am probably going to comply because my gear is not everything. But as it stands right now, beyond just wanting to see what transpires during a hold up, there is little difference between getting your gear stolen and dieing. Maybe if you're super inland you are losing your position but that's it really. 

 

I guess until your life means more than just your gear I will personally not be taken alive. I'll take every last one of them that I can down.