SA-Suggestion: Introduction of Microskills

[GodOfGrain 191]

Microskills

 

[shortened repost of a DayZ Mod suggestion in January '13]

 

Summary

 

"Progression through equipment" is a core part of DayZ. But in itself it is not sufficient to ensure a player's identification with his character. The low value of life & death is a structural flaw of DayZ and is certainly one reason for the abundance of PvP.

 

If progression through equipment is not enough, it has to be progression bound to the character.

That could be some visual changes (e.g. growing a beard), but that would be of limited effect.

Ergo, a skill-based progression should be considered for DayZ.

 

Don't imagine a skill-tree aka Diablo. There are no "level-ups", spendable exp points, no unlocking of skills etc.
There wouldn't be any visible information for the player except from what he observes within the game.

 

The concept

 

In the beginning, we thought of a concept of "getting better at what you do".

E.g. you gain in medical skills by applying a bandage, get better at gutting animals by doing just that.

 

I guess that is the initial starting point of most skill-related suggestions. But it does not work this way.
Basically it would be a problem of "training skills":

 

"The motive of something has to be the effect your action causes, and not a skill you gain"

 

Although I am not the type of player who would grind skills, I'd probably hunt down every animal I come accross; not because I need food, but to gain exp in this. A skill system for DayZ should make the training or grinding of skills impossible or unfeasible.

 

 

Trainable skills require a drawback

 

But there is a valid principle to avoid this: If gaining exp in this area has a very big disadvantage / drawback.
Think of the desease + immunity system. To gain an immunity you suffered a potentially lethal illness; so there is no incentive to intentionally getting a desease just to be immune in the future. Significant drawbacks prevent any false incentives!

 

It is not possible to find realistic disadvantages for many potential "skill areas", which limits the extent of this model. But one area where it would work well is medical skills:

 

If every injury you endure in the game has a certain chance to cause an infection / desease, potentially resulting in your death, you will not injure yourself on purpose. So here we can add a progression by training without any grinding effects. Applying bandages could be trained regarding speed and success probability. A blood bag applied by an inexperienced player could result into an infection with 10% probability, while an experienced medic would have a 1% chance.
 

Mechanical skills could be another area, e.g. regarding the speed and success probabilty of repairs.
It is more difficult to implement a drawback here, but it seems possible:
- Time effort: To finish a repair action takes between 3 minutes (tire) to 6 minutes (engine).
Exp only granted if action is completly finished
- Risk: During this action a soundfile is played (*repair sounds*) which can be heared by other players over some distance.
- Risk #2: (Very small) chance of hurting yourself during a repair.
- Weight / size of repair parts prevents people of carrying repair parts with them just for the sake of using them should they find a vehicle.

 

In summary, progression by training can be introduced where a significant drawback is implemented. This makes training a skill on purpose not a suitable option. The areas of medical and mechanical skills are suited in this regard and would also be a nice addition to the gameplay; we could have an experienced medic or mechanic in our team.

 

 

A potential addition: Progression over time

 

A system where the character progresses by actually "doing things" is limited to areas where a significant drawback can be implemented. A system of progression in medic or mechanical tasks is already an improvement. But we could make a further step by introducing "progression over time-played".

 

This is a very simple system: Your character progresses  over time-played. The major advantage is that the incentive is very clear: Staying alive. There is nothing to think about, no unintended incentives which would cause e.g. grinding. It would not affect player behavior and perception of the game world, despite rewarding "time stayed alive".

 

The differences between a freshspawn and an experienced player should be substantial, but not huge and should never effect combat. The only information a player gains about his character is by observing him in the game world.

 

"Fitness" and "Abilities"

 

So besides medical and mechanical skills, there could be two further categories:

"Fitness", which represent the character's general condition, and "abilities", which includes specific things such a lighting a fire.

 

Fitness

 

"Stamina" in the context of an enhanced stamina concept
"Strength" in the context of an item system which includes the weight of objects
"Dexterity" as a general skill which influences the success in other abilities like "gutting animals"

 

"Abilities"

 

Lighting a fire, gutting animals, chopping wood, ... fishing ...

 

Example: "Lighting a fire"

This would now take 30 seconds with a certain success probability. You'd possibly need several attempts (matches - scarce) to light a fire.  If you character has gained experience over time, success probability will increase, duration will decrease.

 

These "abilities" will simply improve over time. For instance, after your character survived for lets say 100 hours, your success probability for making a fire increased from 70% to 90%; so it is a significant, but subtle difference. All abilities are influenced by the genereal conditon of the character, e.g. dexterity.

"Fitness" is a bit different. These values also raise over time, but they can also be temporarily reduced or influenced by e.g. hunger, thirst, illness etcetera or permanently reduced by e.g. a gunshot wound.

 

 

An example how it could work:

 

There could be a range for skills from 0 - 100 points, fresh spawn starts with 50.

[Again, points are displayed nowhere, and improvements are only incremental, so nearly unnoticable]

 

Now imagine a fresh spawn running around for 20 hours. All skills (fitness and abilities) have raised to 60.

The player goes to Cherno for some n1 PvP, gets a round to the chest and retreats.

 

All "abilities" are still at 60. But the characters fitness level has dropped permenantly. Depending on where the character was hit, stamina might have dropped to 40, dexterity to 55, strength to 50. He will have less endurance, can carry less or for less time, and his lower dexterity reduces his efficiency in all "other abilities" like lighting a fire.

 

[You could also choose to implement an effect on weapon handling if dexterity drops below 50. That means: Wounded characters have worse weapon handling, while all characters at 50 or above (starting value) would have the same weapon handling skills, ergo level playing field.]

 

Now his points will raise again over time. For gameplay reasons, points below the starting value of 50

could increase at a faster rate, perhaps twice as fast. The system is so flexible... Imagine, you could also have a very strong effect of a gunshot wound, e.g. reducing fitness values to e.g. 30 in this example; but part of it will recover after medical treatment and only the rest will be a permenant reduction.

 

 

Incentive to "hide your character"?

 

There is a significant drawback in hiding your character to gain exp.
Beside the fact that survival should be difficult, ergo the game should not allow players to sit around endlessly...
It is fucking boring. Who should feel compromised to adopt to a very defensive style just for this slow gain of exp. Remember, we are talking mikro skills here, which have a distinct effect, but are in no way game deciding. And they take a loooong time to build up.

 

The positive thing is: Even if there is this school kid with way too much time at hands, who has his other school friends bring him food and water to his little hut in the woods...

it would not affect you! Hell, he will be able to light a fire during rain in no-time and everyone around him cheers for him, yes man, you got it! But you still can pop his head with a 9mm round. :D

 

 

 

Summary: What do we gain?

 

I'd always prefer to have "real skill" at work; not the character is learning ingame but the person behind the monitor. But we have to be realistic, DayZ will never be the mother of all simulations. Perhaps things from TOH will be introduced, regarding heli mechanics. But you cannot simmulate everything, from gutting animals over fishings to medical stuff. Minigames are not a solution.

 

The introduction of item degredation and player customization (clothes) in the SA are certainly going in the right direction. But will it be enough to create a strong identification to your character and give enough incentive not to risk your life in PvP? DayZ developers should probably not wait too long to see what will happen in the SA. Once we are back at a PvP fiest, it manifests itself. In my opinion, the introduction of a system of micro skills should be contemplated early in SA alpha development and - if seen as a suitable addition - added rather sooner than later.

 

A system of micro skills will be a real incentive to stay alive. This will have a distinct impact regarding the abundance of PvP. The system I described above has no problem regarding wrong incentives, as "progression by doing things" has a significant drawback or it is simple progression over time-played.

 

Further, mikro skills can add additional depth to the gameplay. They are a great tool to combine with other mechanics, e.g. to simulate effects of deseases, wounds, thirst etc.

This system is not gamey. There are numbers working in the background, but that's it.
You won't see anything from this system besides what you can observe from your character ingame. Imagine your character was alive for 200 hours, perhaps being the dedicated medic of your group. Now you die. You may start a fresh life on the coast, you may be more angry than in DayZ mod (that's what we want). You may also think: "Damn, these nice abilities my previous character had". But what can you do now? There is nothing you can do to get your skills back faster. No false incentives. So you keep on going and will forget that the skill system even exists.

Everything what makes DayZ great today will remain in the game. No + in "gutting animals" will make tactical awareness anything less important, nor communication, navigation, decision making etc.

Edited February 7, 2014 by GodOfGrain

[h3retic 224]

no thank you :)

good effort but we will never see skills in dayz

[Target Practice (DayZ) 1335]

+1 to this whole thing.

 

Like yourself, I believe that the concept of 'learned skills' will add another layer of depth to characters, in particular things like medical and mechanical skills, as not only will it allow players who choose to play that way the benefit of being more efficient at their chosen skills, it benefits the wider playerbase by encouraging interaction between players - if you're badly injured and require extensive medical treatment, do you trust your unskilled buddy to do it, or do you put a call out to find a skilled medic to come and help you?

Found a broken down car in Elektro town centre? It's going to take you 6 minutes of standing out in the open to repair it, but bring in a player who's an experienced mechanic, and you can be out of there in 4.

 

I also absolutely agree that these skills need to be 'fringe' benefits - things that may save you a bit of time or allow you to reduce a bit of risk in a specific aspect of gameplay, but not something that will give you a distinct 'tangible' advantage over any other player in an immediate life-or-death survival situation. The last thing I want to see is a 'aiming' perk where I can't hit anything over 100m away unless I've spent 5 hours laying on my belly in a field somewhere shooting zombies for target practice (pun unintended).

Edited December 25, 2013 by Target Practice

[reapers239 57]

No thanks that make so zombies have skills too which we need levels and so. Days skills comes from our brains and good choices. There is a game called nether and is what you want.

[martink8190@gmail.com 149]

Not sure of this approach...

 

IMO we should have each unique ability from fresh spawn which server would randomly assign. What I mean by that is if I were to spawn as a doctor, ( the life I'd have had before Zeds ) 

I'd have the ability to heal and help sick players. Just as IRL, not everyone can heal them self, let alone diagnose the sickness. 

 

If I were to spawn as a machinery - handyman, I should have the ability to repair damaged parts to workable extend ( from ~ ruined ) and the knowledge to change tires or fix cars. 

 

Other people / players should be able to repair shoes, clothes and so on..

 

Why would they do that if somebody ask them to? TRading purposes of course and hopefully offering different interactions than ...KoS.

Edited December 25, 2013 by Colonel-Wicked

[gsp167 95]

No thanks.

[Intactus 128]

This!

All my beans for the OP. :thumbsup:

I sincerely think that's the best suggestion on the forums right now.
Anything that adds more flesh to this game in such a balanced and discrete way is an idea of pure gold says i.

People really should have a reason to give a shit if their toon dies. Atleast people who play that way to begin with. We'll always have them "torpedoes" who don't give two shits about anything and just rush in head first but nevermind, you got those people in real life as well. Go find your nearest crack-addict and see for yourself.

 

Not sure of this approach...

 

IMO we should have each unique ability from fresh spawn....

This is the dumbest idea on the forums right now. Having a special skill from the start that makes shit easier and you even get to choose what it it? HAH! :D Never.

Give the OP a thought or two. This is great approach to make people have some benefits for playing smart and surviving.

[BelMarduk 169]

no 'skill trees' in any form or function. Bad idea. Your 'level up' is your gear. I also think with the SA, the longer your character is alive, the better he gets at resisting disease. Beyond that skill sets are just a bad idea in this kind of game. IM(not so)HO.

Any 'skill', no matter the 'drawback' has the potential for anyone to grind. Medical? even more so in the SA than in the MOD. Mechanical? finally fix a car, grind to fill it up with parts, head to a secluded area and grind fixing it. Most of the other , shall we say 'mundane' acts such as starting a fire, or gutting animals, honestly whats the use? I mean a 'lvl 1 fire starter takes 30 seconds where a lvl 20 takes 20 seconds' really seems just plain silly. If you give a boost (of say %25 more meat) for the 30'th animal gutted, then gutting animals is going to be a priority grind.

That all said, I do think that a players character should have some sort of 'bump' for his longevity. Example, First day on the coast, I take a bullet to the knee (well, jets just say the fatty part of the thigh as a knee shot would be fatal in a post-apocalyptic scenario ). There is going to be some nerve damage etc even after being 'fully healed' there for the next time I get shot in the leg, it will no56tt35t be nearly so 'immediately' gimping.

[BelMarduk 169]

Not sure of this approach...

 

IMO we should have each unique ability from fresh spawn. What I mean by that is if I were to spawn as a doctor, ( the life I'd have had before Zeds )

I'd have the ability to heal and help sick players. Just as IRL, not everyone can heal them self, let alone diagnose the sickness. 

 

If I were to spawn as a machinery - handyman, I should have the ability to repair damaged parts to workable extend ( from ~ ruined ) and the knowledge to change tires or fix cars. 

 

Other people / players should be able to repair shoes, clothes and so on..

 

Why would they do that if somebody ask them to? TRading purposes of course and hopefully offering different interactions than ...KoS.

I have thought about this approach, you do realize that virtually everybody is going to take the 'military/mercenary' option. Unless a clan is forming up and specifically putting together a 'party'... Pick your game that has fighter thief or magic user as choices, and how many times do you play through the game before you take the magic user if ever?

[glowfow@hotmail.com 55]

Snipple

 

Have you even read his post? He mentioned no skill trees and his idea is actually quite subtle, fair and devote of intentional grinding. There are some areas that might be a bit exploitable, but the advantage gained from these skills over a fresh spawn is subtle enough to discourage people afking for long periods. Plus you won't gain an unfair advantage in combat situations, (re)read his post and give it a second thought.

Edited December 25, 2013 by JoostVoordeel

[Sooden 301]

Have a feeling the people that say 'no' right away are just interested in killing, they don't wanna have to worry about deeper aspects, this has happens in MMOs as they develop and start loosing complex depths of games*1 in order to get new 'toy box' player and hoping old player will stay (and they do stay, that's why it works). As we are in alpha, this is where the depth should be added and just hope it not reduced later on in life.

 

Also, I know when I was learning a few survival skills, the more they where used, the more proficient I became at them. Weird concept eh?

 

*1) I have noticed games where you can craft something and have to collect all the parts, and store them till you have them all... but then this system is remove and the item its self become easy available. Not sure how much this happens now. I find very few mmo i want to play anymore

Edited December 25, 2013 by Sooden

[Intactus 128]

 

Any 'skill', no matter the 'drawback' has the potential for anyone to grind...

- Go read the original post a few more times.

Imho the beauty of this system is that the casual killer/player doesn't even have to care about this and they can still casually kill and grief and do whatever just as effectively but the players that really care for their performance, value those days survived and like to organize and conduct according to their standards, it gives another layer of depth in the game. It's brilliant.

[martink8190@gmail.com 149]

I have thought about this approach, you do realize that virtually everybody is going to take the 'military/mercenary' option. Unless a clan is forming up and specifically putting together a 'party'... Pick your game that has fighter thief or magic user as choices, and how many times do you play through the game before you take the magic user if ever?

 

I never said we could pick up the role that we want to. Sorry if it came out that way but what I mean is that it would be random.

 

Also, not every spawn would need to have the knowledge and be just that, a new spawn.

[martink8190@gmail.com 149]

 

 

This is the dumbest idea on the forums right now. Having a special skill from the start that makes shit easier and you even get to choose what it it? HAH!  :D Never.

 

 

 

Or perhaps you are so limited that you were simply unable to even comprehend my post?

Edited December 25, 2013 by Colonel-Wicked

[Intactus 128]

No, and i didn't mean to upset. I just meant that the whole point of the thread was to make surviving worthwile by adding a system that rewards extended lifetime and makes it more bitter to start over so that the way we appreciate our lives would atleast come within a mile of the way we cherish our gear etc. Having that kind of "specialization" available from the start gets us to nowhere.

[GodOfGrain 191]

yea, bumped :D

 

Adress KOS via microskills, Dean!

 

Or do something else :D But do something. We need player interaction besides exchanging bullets.

 

A higher value of life due to microskills will at least result in a more passive / evasive behaviour of players.

Especially for group play it will become much more immersive, we would get away from: "Here you have your gear back, buddy".

[skyline-gtr 130]

Im sorry but I think you have missed a few important points.

 

 

"Think of the desease + immunity system. To gain an immunity you suffered a potentially lethal illness; so there is no incentive to intentionally getting a desease just to be immune in the future. Significant drawbacks prevent any false incentives!"
If you were not aware, a very common method in real life to gain immunity is to inject a small amount of the disease.

 

"If every injury you endure in the game has a certain chance to cause an infection / desease, potentially resulting in your death, you will not injure yourself on purpose. So here we can add a progression by training without any grinding effects. Applying bandages could be trained regarding speed and success probability. A blood bag applied by an inexperienced player could result into an infection with 10% probability, while an experienced medic would have a 1% chance."

This is easily exploitable and could promote grinding.

 

"Mechanical skills could be another area, e.g. regarding the speed and success probabilty of repairs.
It is more difficult to implement a drawback here, but it seems possible:
- Time effort: To finish a repair action takes between 3 minutes (tire) to 6 minutes (engine).
Exp only granted if action is completly finished
- Risk: During this action a soundfile is played (*repair sounds*) which can be heared by other players over some distance.
- Risk #2: (Very small) chance of hurting yourself during a repair.
- Weight / size of repair parts prevents people of carrying repair parts with them just for the sake of using them should they find a vehicle."
This is easily exploitable and could promote grinding.


"This is a very simple system: Your character progresses  over time-played. The major advantage is that the incentive is very clear: Staying alive. There is nothing to think about, no unintended incentives which would cause e.g. grinding. It would not affect player behavior and perception of the game world in any way because it is so simple."

This is easily exploitable and could promote grinding.

 

 

 

It doesnt matter how you word it, or how long winded your post is. When you start handing out rewards for actions, then it will cause some people to stop playing the game, perform the actions and gain the reward.

I was going to point out some more obvious mistakes but I feel my above points are sufficient. If you do require more understanding about how your logic is flawed then I will surely oblige.

[GodOfGrain 191]

Im sorry but I think you have missed a few important points.

 

 

"Think of the desease + immunity system. To gain an immunity you suffered a potentially lethal illness; so there is no incentive to intentionally getting a desease just to be immune in the future. Significant drawbacks prevent any false incentives!"

If you were not aware, a very common method in real life to gain immunity is to inject a small amount of the disease.

 

"If every injury you endure in the game has a certain chance to cause an infection / desease, potentially resulting in your death, you will not injure yourself on purpose. So here we can add a progression by training without any grinding effects. Applying bandages could be trained regarding speed and success probability. A blood bag applied by an inexperienced player could result into an infection with 10% probability, while an experienced medic would have a 1% chance."

This is easily exploitable and could promote grinding.

 

"Mechanical skills could be another area, e.g. regarding the speed and success probabilty of repairs.

It is more difficult to implement a drawback here, but it seems possible:

- Time effort: To finish a repair action takes between 3 minutes (tire) to 6 minutes (engine).

Exp only granted if action is completly finished

- Risk: During this action a soundfile is played (*repair sounds*) which can be heared by other players over some distance.

- Risk #2: (Very small) chance of hurting yourself during a repair.

- Weight / size of repair parts prevents people of carrying repair parts with them just for the sake of using them should they find a vehicle."

This is easily exploitable and could promote grinding.

"This is a very simple system: Your character progresses  over time-played. The major advantage is that the incentive is very clear: Staying alive. There is nothing to think about, no unintended incentives which would cause e.g. grinding. It would not affect player behavior and perception of the game world in any way because it is so simple."

This is easily exploitable and could promote grinding.

 

 

 

It doesnt matter how you word it, or how long winded your post is. When you start handing out rewards for actions, then it will cause some people to stop playing the game, perform the actions and gain the reward.

I was going to point out some more obvious mistakes but I feel my above points are sufficient. If you do require more understanding about how your logic is flawed then I will surely oblige.

 

Hmm, you adress three points:

 

1) Medical skills (learning by doing)

2) Mechanical skills (learning by doing)

3) The (additional) "progression-by-time-played" system

 

Regarding 1)

Yea, ok, I think i get ya. Exploitable by performing medical actions on a fresh-spawn (where it doesnt matter if he dies to infection)

On the other hand, the system works regarding all actions performed on the own character.

Perhaps there is a solution?

 

Regarding 2)

Cannot see your point. The proposed measures should make it unfeasible to grind mechanical skills.

Grinding would be possible to some degree, but unfeasible

 

Regarding 3)

Yes, it is possible to stay hidden and have your friends feed ya.

Some people will do that, most wont.

(Because it is a ) boring and b ) should be unfeasible due to scarcity of resources)

 

Most people would follow their normal play style, but just be a little bit more careful

Edited February 7, 2014 by GodOfGrain

[Longs 42]

People will always kill on sight tho. It's just too much fun for some people to know that they've ruined someone's day by killing their character that they've spent the last 6 hours perfecting. Handcuffs and force feeding have just added a new dynamic to their amusement.

[six_ten 35]

No thanks.

[skyline-gtr 130]

2) grinding is inconvienient?? Whats new dude. Will not stop it happening.

3) grinding is boring?? Whats new dude. Will not stop it happening.

 

When you start handing out rewards for actions, then it will cause some people to stop playing the game, perform the actions and gain the reward.

[GodOfGrain 191]

People will always kill on sight tho. It's just too much fun for some people to know that they've ruined someone's day by killing their character that they've spent the last 6 hours perfecting. Handcuffs and force feeding have just added a new dynamic to their amusement.

 

 

hehe, yes. Even I would continue to play the "hunting game", would continue to look for action.

But I'd approach it differently!  Because I have more to loose.

 

If you actively engage in PvP all the time you will die sooner or later.

Higher value of life = Less PvP

 

Increasing the value of a player's life won't solve all problems. That's the challenge of a game like DayZ which wants to work

without arbitrary rules. The game has to employ a multitude of game elements working in the desired direction.

Edited February 7, 2014 by GodOfGrain

[GodOfGrain 191]

2) grinding is inconvienient?? Whats new dude. Will not stop it happening.

3) grinding is boring?? Whats new dude. Will not stop it happening.

 

When you start handing out rewards for actions, then it will cause some people to stop playing the game, perform the actions and gain the reward.

 

There is a huge difference to normal games.

In other games you have skill progression as the core mechanic which defines how good you are in the game.

That is why I have called it "micro skills": They are in no way game-deciding & do not affect combat.

 

You are right, there is an incentive to e.g. hide in the woods or carry heavy car parts over kilometers. But the incentive is not very strong. That means that 95% of players will not grind skills (nor feel in any way that they are missing out).

 

The remaining 5% may choose to grind, but who cares? The don't gain any advantage over you in battle.

Edited February 7, 2014 by GodOfGrain

[skyline-gtr 130]

Do you have a source for you percentage numbers, or anything to back them up ?

[pillock 850]

I am not in favour of developable 'skills', like crafting or medical expertise or mechanics, for character progression. I think that takes the game in the wrong direction.

 

But I do like the idea of physical conditioning. When you start out as a fresh spawn, you ought to be weak and unfit - get tired easily, require sustenance more often, get sick or injured more easily and take longer to recover from it. But players who have looked after their character over a long period of time, keeping them well fed and watered, free of sickness and injury, and not knackered them out too often by constantly running around everywhere - they should be rewarded in the increased physical health of their character. So, you get to turn yourself into hardened survivor who is stronger and fitter, can carry heavier equipment over longer distances, can run longer (and maybe faster?), can recover from sickness more quickly and be less susceptible in the first place, can recover from injury faster, can sustain longer periods of hunger and thirst.

 

I'd like to see much more made out of fatigue, so you have to manage it. Physical exertion tires your survivor, but conditions them - unless you over-exert, in which case it has the opposite effect. This wouldn't be "skill grinding", it would be "training".