How to not be killed on sight

[DaveAzoicer (DayZ) 135]

So you made generalizations and assumptions, and when caught dead wrong you try to squirm your way out of it by ultimately making more generalizations and assumptions? Alright, well I'm done discussing anything with you.

 

You mean.... exactly like you just did when you created this thread?!?!? Oh. My. God!

 

Seriously thou.

Once they add a higher threat from zombies and something along the good ol' bandit skin, it will somewhat calm down again. Just like the mod.

But dont give me all your bullshit again.

 

Cheers.

[doctorbadsign 645]

Sure, because I have a point and give fair insight on the problem, I am automatically a bag full of stupid.

 

You make the assumption that there is a problem to begin with. 

 

I think the main point of contention is that other people do not agree that there is a problem that needs fixing. 

 

You assume that because players kill you for fun, or for no reason, there is a problem because you do not want this to happen to you. Others would say this is your problem, not the a problem with how the game works.

[MCRoadkill 7]

I believe that once there are more Zeds, people will start to conserve ammo and KOS will get old and not necessary...that is until we can set up bases!

 

True, but don't you think that when there are bases, camps etc. that other people will still try to take stuff from other people by force.

Then you would get raids and all that stuff and sure you can defend your camp but you would need 24/7 guard duty or else your camp would be attacked during RL sleep hours or overrun by Z's

 

About the closing doors.. I do the same thing. I get paranoid if i see a leaf blow past the window making me think was that a player? I close the door so I can check if it's opened to see if he is in the building or not.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

It might have that moral depth for the person doing the killing, but not for me playing against those people.

 

I attempt to avoid killing other players on sight, because I am a principled person, so I try to translate this into how I play the game. However I am aware that in the world of DayZ there are people with no principles who will kill me, meaning that I am forced to make decisions that contradict my principles in order to survive. I probably have shot friendly players because they seemed like a threat to me, and it makes me feel guilty and I question my actions afterwards. Some people wouldn't, but then some people wouldn't in real life.

 

It adds moral depth for me as a player.

 

If you make a decision to kill or not to kill, then it's not really senseless killing. Killing on sight is when people just gun you down regardless. Your mere existence is a threat to them.

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

You make the assumption that there is a problem to begin with. 

 

I think the main point of contention is that other people do not agree that there is a problem that needs fixing. 

 

You assume that because players kill you for fun, or for no reason, there is a problem because you do not want this to happen to you. Others would say this is your problem, not the a problem with how the game works.

 

You do realize how fucking stupid you sound saying that shit when the game is in alpha...?

[El Lowell 3]

You make the assumption that there is a problem to begin with. 

 

I think the main point of contention is that other people do not agree that there is a problem that needs fixing. 

 

You assume that because players kill you for fun, or for no reason, there is a problem because you do not want this to happen to you. Others would say this is your problem, not the a problem with how the game works.

Assumption? Well of course, he's expressing what he and many others view to be a problem. He may be right, he may be wrong, just as are people who disagree with him.

[LeoIvanov 27]

So you made generalizations and assumptions, and when caught dead wrong you try to squirm your way out of it by ultimately making more generalizations and assumptions? Alright, well I'm done discussing anything with you.

 

Thanks for deliberately pointing out where I was caught dead wrong. Oh wait, you didn't! Does that mean I can tell you that you are dead wrong without giving any sort of explanation either? Okay.

 

So you made assumption and generalization, and when caught dead wrong you get pissed off and start telling people to go fuck themselves. Well, I'm done discussing anything with you.

 

 

How did that feel? Next time you throw something as ridicoulus as your reply, make sure you back it up with something, otherwise I won't even bother replying to you.

[doctorbadsign 645]

You do realize how fucking stupid you sound saying that shit when the game is in alpha...?

 

 

Assumption? Well of course, he's expressing what he and many others view to be a problem. He may be right, he may be wrong, just as are people who disagree with him.

 

I was merely expressing why people disagree.

 

Person 1 thinks there is a problem with X and assumes something should be done about it

 

Person 2 doesn't think so therefore does not want anything done to fix a problem that does not in their eyes exist.

 

Hence person 1 & 2 do not agree

 

Its got nothing to do with the game being in alpha. Its to do with whether or not KOS should be treated as a problem to be solved. Personally I do not think it should be viewed as such. I am of course open to hear arguments from the other side, but so far they don't really amount to much other than 'I don't like it, make it go away'.

[LeoIvanov 27]

 Personally I do not think it should be viewed as such. I am of course open to hear arguments from the other side, but so far they don't really amount to much other than 'I don't like it, make it go away'.

 

People get turned off by games like Nether and WarZ because they are "Buggy" and "People can't even talk to each other without getting instantly shot at", yet the very same people praise DayZ for the latter.

 

There is a perfect reason of why DayZ attracts me to it - it's the "Survival" aspect, and the one of a kind game that "Simulates" what would actually happend in real zombie apocalypse. I am old enough to know that in any sort of apocalypse, once you find a gun loaded with bullets, your thoughts will never be anywhere near "How fast can this gun kill a person?!" I played vanilla DayZ because of how it made me feel scared, and the way I interacted with my friend (Once he broke the leg and I had to run 2 towns for a single morphine shot while he was waiting at abandoned gas station).

 

In any sort of apocalypse, those who shoot others on sight are considered maniacs that are too far gone into their mental sickness. Those kind of people will exist, but they are unable to think rationally and will most likely end up being dead on the first year of whatever disaster happens and holds for that long. DayZ tries to simulate the apocalypse, but with such big amount of Deathmatch players, it fails to do so and instead simulates what it's like being on an island full of psychopatic maniacs that want to kill you at any moment. It's not because "I just don't like it, make it go away", it's because it breaks the core element of human interaction in DayZ. You might aswell remove VOIP and handcuffs from the game, people will kill you anyway, why bother.

[Flip4Flap 8]

Paranoia... Will keep you alive!

(at least for a while and it's good for immersion yay :D)

[MCRoadkill 7]

Senseless killing in DayZ has the moral depth of most other video games out there, in that it sends enemies to kill you for no other reason than you're a player in the game.

 

True, when we play games like CoD or BF we don't have any problems with dying and spawning countless times, but when we have a backpack and hard earned stuff we have a problem with it. Maybe because that comes really close to that you want to protect.

 

Some people kill for fun and some kill for self protection, but it's hard to find out wich one it was, maybe the player got so paranoid and was fed beeing killed he decided to finally do the same in hope he got the person who killed him. Since you don't know the name of the person that killed you, you can't hunt him or take revenge. You can never find out.

 

But when you encounter cool ppl ingame and want to add them to your friendlist in steam and team up, I don't see any options for that. Only if you join a clan you can 'easily' team up

[DaveAzoicer (DayZ) 135]

KOS is a problem. But it is a minor problem.

And only because there is no negative effects of doing so for the murderer.

Which in turn "breaks the dragon" (Elder Scrolls reference), by making every other way to play except KoS viable.

And that in iiself make Multiplay useless in a survival game aspect.

I would like to see someway that can identify a KoS/survivor/hero and what else people want to call other players.

It was somewhat ok in the mod where heros/bandits had skins. But it is only a temporary solution.

[Xandariel 14]

While Im not a fan of KoS(Banditry, yes. Stupid cod-like kos, no. killing others cause you have to/feel threatened? sure) I gotta agree with the OP on some points. Players always take their chances. If youre unarmed, they have an axe 9/10 players will hack you to death even if you talk to them ingame and explain youre a new spawn with nothing on you. If you have the axe, the other guy is unarmed 9/10 guys will magically be friendly. Apply axe/fists to any other weapon relation. Guy with pistol, if not in a position to ambush the others, will rarely ever pick a fight with a guy who has an m4 etc etc.

 

So right now, if you are not armed properly DONT run around infront of armed guys like a headless chicken with the mentality of a 5yo kindergarden child who wants to be friends with everyone. IT WONT WORK!

 

And if you have a weapon? Youre still not save. Considering the current drop rate of weapons like the m4, everyone who has 2 brain cells and managed to survive longer than 5 minutes can find a good weapon and ammo. That includes nasty ghosters. Heck, go and hide unless you dont mind dying. The only way to be relatively save is to walk around in a group of 5 ppl in an area where it is hard to get ambushed. If youre on the streets in cherno a lonesome m4 gunner will still take his chance on a group of 5 ppl. And then theres the occasional badass who doesnt care and runs at you with an axe in the open. ^^

 

Hiding, right now, is the best thing you can do to avoid getting killed.

 

And I can just say it again. I am NOT a friend of KoS. But I dont agree with most of the whiners either. I see KoS as a relatively "small" problem. Not because I mind it too much but because you cant do too much about it without a: fundamentally changing the entire game or b: funamentally restricting players of their freedom of choice which can be(in some situations) very decisive on whether or not they will live to see the next day. Sometimes you got the feeling that this guy with the pistol will just attack you when he sees you -> you take him out. If (considering the old system) he wasnt a bandit already or had any murders, youd basically get punished by the game for following what your gut told you to do in order to SURVIVE in a SURVIVAL GAME. And that is not good at all. I want this problem to be adressed. I dont like relying solely on the people I knew for years now and I am on teamspeak with. I dont want to be shot by every single mofo I meet, no questions asked. I want some interaction with others. I want to get robbed legitimately if I am stupid enough to run in a situation that will allow for that to happen. I want this to be a survival RPG MMO rather than a free-for-all-fuckfest MMO with some zombies. But rushing this delicate matter and restricting what ppl are allowed to do or what they get punished for by your imaginary ingame-god(saying ingame so some of you wont get offended irl :P) is not the right way to go.

 

Much rather giving ppl a reason to interact with each other instead of shooting on sight. 

 

How would you rather fight crime in real life? By brutal punishment AFTER the crime was committed or by giving the criminals a reason not to commit the crime in the first place? Act and suggest according to your answer on this question. Its rather similar on this matter.

[DaveAzoicer (DayZ) 135]

If I wasn't at my parents and on the phone. Xandariel, have my beans.

[Xandariel 14]

Haha, thanks.

 

I gotta admit though. When me and my friends are bored, we sometimes go to cherno/elektro and shoot everyone with a weapon(not new spawns though as thats pretty douchy). But we do that, knowing that we will go down one by one sooner or later. Its a last man standing so to say with those who died minding their own business and meeting up with the other dead ones, rather than coming back and continuing the killing spree. Its sort of a "hard reset" on your character that gives you the incentive to find good gear again when youre all geared up and got nothing to find anymore.

 

Other than that, we try to avoid killing others. We always try to approach armed ppl from behind, telling them that we are friendly and that they should either lay down their weapons or not turn around. They turn around with their weapons in their hands(unless its a melee weapon) they gotta die, due to self defense. The only ppl we show no mercy to are ghosters when we find them while we are looting. They get shot while loading in, no questions asked.

 

Its just much more fun, running around in cherno and taking ppl with an axe hostage(when they claim they got friends) or handcuffing them, stealing their blood and then letting them go and giving them some food for complying. ^^

[doctorbadsign 645]

People get turned off by games like Nether and WarZ because they are "Buggy" and "People can't even talk to each other without getting instantly shot at", yet the very same people praise DayZ for the latter.

 

There is a perfect reason of why DayZ attracts me to it - it's the "Survival" aspect, and the one of a kind game that "Simulates" what would actually happend in real zombie apocalypse. I am old enough to know that in any sort of apocalypse, once you find a gun loaded with bullets, your thoughts will never be anywhere near "How fast can this gun kill a person?!" I played vanilla DayZ because of how it made me feel scared, and the way I interacted with my friend (Once he broke the leg and I had to run 2 towns for a single morphine shot while he was waiting at abandoned gas station).

 

In any sort of apocalypse, those who shoot others on sight are considered maniacs that are too far gone into their mental sickness. Those kind of people will exist, but they are unable to think rationally and will most likely end up being dead on the first year of whatever disaster happens and holds for that long. DayZ tries to simulate the apocalypse, but with such big amount of Deathmatch players, it fails to do so and instead simulates what it's like being on an island full of psychopatic maniacs that want to kill you at any moment. It's not because "I just don't like it, make it go away", it's because it breaks the core element of human interaction in DayZ. You might aswell remove VOIP and handcuffs from the game, people will kill you anyway, why bother.

 

True, but any simulation has its limits, and there is no way to get other players to conform to how you want them to play. You can make things harder and more inconvenient for them, but you can never stop them. Just wait for RP servers to come out, I'm sure you'd be perfectly happy on one of those.

 

Also my interactions in game have mostly been non-hostile. I think this idea that everyone will shoot you for fun is a total exaggeration. Mostly when I've been shot, I've been a threat to the other person, so I have to hand it to them that they shot me before I had a chance to react. Yeah I've met some twats with melee weapons that wanted to attack me, but mostly that hasn't ended well for them. A high percentage of player I've met have spoken to me, and asked me if I was armed etc. before reacting.

[dnk 18]

Yeah, as much as KoS can be frustrating for people who want to play cooperatively, that's the game basically.

 

If you do want to play cooperatively, there will be private hives with TS eventually, plus you can always join a squad/clan. But you guys have to realize that teaming up with randoms in pub servers is always going to be very risky (though in the mods I've had decent luck with it), and everywhere you go you need to assume you're being hunted or walking into an ambush.

 

There's a survival game to be had, but the anti-KOS side has to realize that most of that survival aspect comes from surviving other survivors rather than slow zombies.

[doctorbadsign 645]

 

There's a survival game to be had, but the anti-KOS side has to realize that most of that survival aspect comes from surviving other survivors rather than slow zombies.

 

Yep. For me the game would be shit without the risk that other players would pose.

[Xandariel 14]

Yeah, as much as KoS can be frustrating for people who want to play cooperatively, that's the game basically.

 

If you do want to play cooperatively, there will be private hives with TS eventually, plus you can always join a squad/clan. But you guys have to realize that teaming up with randoms in pub servers is always going to be very risky (though in the mods I've had decent luck with it), and everywhere you go you need to assume you're being hunted or walking into an ambush.

 

There's a survival game to be had, but the anti-KOS side has to realize that most of that survival aspect comes from surviving other survivors rather than slow zombies.

I can see where you are coming from. But you fail to see some aspects of it. I am running around with alot of ppl I have known for longer than ArmA2 even existed. I can trust them, put my life into their hands knowing they wont disappoint me. If they fail at something, they tried and failed giving their best. They would never do something to harm me or the group. That gives you a certain comfy zone. And its that comfy zone that dayz was aiming to deny to players. You were supposed to think about your actions, plot how to betray others or if they might betray you before you team up with them. By teaming up with a random player you create a very fragile basis of trust that can be broken any moment if you just so happened to meet the wrong guy. On the other hand, the guy you just found could be the most loyal public youll ever see. You never know that before you try and that makes the biggest thrill of public interaction of dayz. That is actually a HUGE part that most ppl are missing out on, simply because they dont get the chance or wont risk the chance of teaming up with a random player, let alone talking to them. They see you, they shoot. No interaction AT ALL. That is whats bad. If someone sees you with a weapon that you just so happen to aim at him and he takes you out without talking, thats something different. If someone talks to you and you got some good gear and he wants that and he takes you out thats something different aswell. Thats the risk of interaction. But just shooting at someone who doesnt even know youre there is ruining this very underestimated thrill of the game that could improve everyones experience by far.

 

I joined the mod in july 2012 when deathmatching was already at its current high. I learned to shoot everything that moves because my friends told me that I would get killed otherwise. And I acted accordingly, seeing as I had no experience with the game and they did. It took our group near enough 1 year to engage the first few public players in a friendly manner and meet up with them, knowing that they had weapons too. We were very very cautious about it but it worked. But ever since then, we never did it again - until the standalone that is. Experiencing all this interaction with strangers and seeing all different kinds of reactions, from friendly over funny and sad to plain brutal, absolutely blew my mind and made me realize what we missed out on all that time. And everyone agreed on this, up to yesterday or so. We got shoot one too many times once again by some random guys who were camping some places and just shot at everything that moves, so that now it always has a very very bitter taste of not instinctively shooting as soon as we see an armed person. We still try to approach them from a save angle and tell them we are friendly and ask them to lay their weapons down, but if the current trend continues back to where it was at the mod(which it seems to do) we wont do that for long anymore. And that is sad cause thats a great part of the game ruined, once again. I dont want that to happen AGAIN.

[MCRoadkill 7]

True.

Like someone said before, you can make up as many rules and systems as you want but people will try anything to do what they want.

Maybe the best thing is to leave it open and maybe see the situation resolves itself because non-hostile teams clean up and hunt the KoSers.

 

In the end we only face each other, the question is what are you going to do (about it).

 

And to bring out my favorite Zombieland quote: "Either nut up or shut up!"

 

 

@Xandriel

each night i'm running around with 16 to 19 year olds in a group, when I come across a player I leave them alone and I encourage the others in the group to do the same, but you always have a rogue in your team that chases after the fresh spawn or someone else and gets himself killed. It's hard to keep them under control because they can get away with it. That doesn't say anything because you also have players that are double that age and act the same, then again i've played with an older guy and we both acted accordingly (no KoS).

 

But some people are just idiots (sorry), there we were in Elektro on the roof of the firestation and all of a suddenly a fresh spawn climbs on the roof and finds us three/four heavily armed guys and what does he do? He brings out his firsts and starts hitting one of us? What's up with that?

Edited December 24, 2013 by MCRoadkill

[Xandariel 14]

True.

Like someone said before, you can make up as many rules and systems as you want but people will try anything to do what they want.

Maybe the best thing is to leave it open and maybe see the situation resolves itself because non-hostile teams clean up and hunt the KoSers.

 

In the end we only face each other, the question is what are you going to do (about it).

Are you going to take the blue or red pill?

 

And to bring out my favorite Zombieland quote: "You either nut up or shut up!"

And how exactly is it gonna resolve itself? Deathmatchers wont grow tired of killing others. They might grow tired of the game sooner or later and leave, but they wont grow tired of shooting others if thats what is really making the fun aspect of the game for them. But them leaving sooner or later cause they get bored doesnt mean anything. We will have new ones joining and more importantly, we will have alot more ppl who didnt like the deathmatching leaving the game so that in the end we have a half abandoned game with the majority of its player base left being death matchers. Not really a too great thing to picture for a "glorious" future of dayz.

 

Groups of ppl hunting KoS'ers? How exactly do they do that? A bandit skin seems unlikely at the current point into the game, considering all the clothing and how it would ruin this aspect of the game for both, heroes and bandits. And even with a bandit skin. Never been in a position where you had to shoot ppl who werent bandits themselves, simply to protect yourself? 1,2, boom. Youre a bandit. Even though you are not. Wait, what? Exactly. And now leaving the bandit skin aside. How will they find out whos a deathmater and whos not? Simply shoot everyone with a gun? Makes them a deathmatcher too. Global chat wont be a thing, afaik - so no names told. Besides, you dont see names anyways. Are they gonna wait until someone of their group gets taken out before they take action? Thats a very ineffective way, wont happen. And even if it will - how do they know that the guy who killed one of them didnt shoot cause he felt threatened by their presence and not because hes a deathmatcher? 

 

Leaving this to itself wont change it, it will just give this trend the freedom to spread violently until we are where we were at the mod again. Like I said earlier though. I am not a fan of restrictions. I would much rather prefer it to give players an incentive to interact with strangers. Something rewarding, something fun - aside from the experience that they are already missing out on anyways. The game needs something that makes you actually think and decide whether you wanna do x fun experience with x random stranger or just plainly shoot him in the face when he doesnt even know youre there. 

[Gdaddy22 299]

If you say that we all should shoow each other on sight, then what's the point of bloodbags ? If we can't even bloodbag anybody because we will get killed . And what's the point of anything that's supposed to be used in teamwork that rocket works hard on ?

[Xandariel 14]

I think the devs intent it to be for "public use". And I guess at the same time, the ppl who are overly supportive of KoS see it as a nice tool to support their group since most of them are probably not lone wolfs...

[vrsick 11]

If i were to wake up from a coma and someone told me A) its the zombie apocalypse and B ) 95% of all people you meet will shoot you in the face the second they see you for no reason, i would have more trouble believing B. It breaks the immersion of the game and if you don't play the game to try to get into your character,to try to put yourself in the environment  and act like you would act, why not just play on a server that spawns you with a sniper rifle? You would be on a fair playing field and be able to test your abilities appropriately. 

Edited December 24, 2013 by vrsick

[MCRoadkill 7]

And how exactly is it gonna resolve itself? Deathmatchers wont grow tired of killing others. They might grow tired of the game sooner or later and leave, but they wont grow tired of shooting others if thats what is really making the fun aspect of the game for them. But them leaving sooner or later cause they get bored doesnt mean anything. We will have new ones joining and more importantly, we will have alot more ppl who didnt like the deathmatching leaving the game so that in the end we have a half abandoned game with the majority of its player base left being death matchers. Not really a too great thing to picture for a "glorious" future of dayz.

 

I don't know, maybe guessing here, but when people play this game as a regular FPS game, I can imagine that people grow tired of the waiting and need a "quicker fix" and go off playing CoD or BF or even UT.

 

But what I meant was, that a group of non-KoS-ers go around the map and hunt down KoSers, to make it unattractive for them to conduct their business on that part map or server.

You see the same in other games like EVE Online where you can pick different sides like beeing a pirate or carebear etc. everything has a predator and to have areas (servers) in the game wich are known for something (good or bad)

 

For instance in EVE Online you have a security zone controlled by NPC police. The moment a pirate player destroys a players ship in a security zone the NPC police called Concord will come in and destroy you, if you are in lower security zone any players knows that when they are mining there they can get ganked by pirate players, but in a high security zone pirate player don't do that because they don't want to loose their ship, but there is also a trick around that, but in the end people will find ways to cheat the system.

In the end in EVE Online they have some balance and order for the carebears, but the key is to join a clan or coorporation and you would have a system where you could declare war on each other and fight it out.

 

But how could you form a "KoS hunting pack" you ask? Like with everything you hunt...you need bait. Just as they do with the non-KoSers.

Dead guy on the floor, some poor smuck goes near it to loot it and BAM your dead because it's a trap of a KoSer, it also works the otherway around. you could have a freshspawn buddy in your group that acts as bait and set a trap ;)

 

I agree with you on the paradoxal dicussion about good intentions gone bad, non-KoSers become KoSers, but it all depends on the purpose.

You could see it as a 'righteous' police force in the zombie aftermatch, forcing "out-laws" to behave. Just as we have now...

Edited December 24, 2013 by MCRoadkill