BUIS for weapons with optics

[itsDIETZ 20]

I recently watched the latest Devblog (very impressive) and noticed that the M4's that had a red dot or CCO attachments did not have back up iron sights (BUIS) on them. Now normally for games its no big deal but I'd imagine with the direction DayZ is going they will probably need batteries (especially considering rockets gameplay, his CCO red dot didn't seem to be on but maybe I just missed it).  Just suggesting that BUIS be considered as a sight choice, with or without a CCO or other optic. 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j0cPwIbwsM EDIT: Skip ahead to about 2:55 to see what I mean about his red dot not being on.

 

 

EDIT: To be clear for people who don't understand what I mean about using a BUIS in conjunction with a red dot, here is a pic:

 

You can use a BUIS, if properly aligned (cowitnessed) with the CCO, with the CCO still attached. So, there is no need to remove anything, just a quick flip of the sight and your ready to rock.

 

Thanks for reading.

Edited August 7, 2013 by -RoosteR-

[applejaxc 2500]

Or... you just take the scope off after the battery dies...

[itsDIETZ 20]

Obviously, you don't keep up with modern military rifle setups.  A rifle with a CCO (close combat optic) usually still has a set of iron sets (usually folding) that align (cowitness) with the red dot in the event your optics fail, you still have something to fall back on and maintain your fighting position.  I have them on mine, as do many other soldiers world wide.

 

Example: This one isn't a folding rear sight but still a BUIS regardless.

 

Another example: If this happens to you, and you don't have backup sights, you're pretty much boned.

 

Here's a helpful link: http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2012/03/foghorn/ask-foghorn-how-and-why-to-co-witness-your-sights/

Edited August 6, 2013 by -RoosteR-

[Korsbaek 1778]

Or, we could keep it simple, like Applejaxc suggested.

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

 

Im thinking that the optic you saw was just a placeholder due to it's low poly count.

 

With the effort they are putting into the weapons systems, I would be amazed if we cant use back up sights.

 

Also the capability was in A2. I'd bet 50p we'll see similar in the SA.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

[applejaxc 2500]

-snip-

Actually, for your information, I do, and I find your assumption quite rude. Fact of the matter is, if no one is going to complain that the modular attachment system allows sights to be put on too quickly, then there's no sense in leaving back up sights when you can take the scope back off just as easily. So quite politely, fuck you.

[itsDIETZ 20]

Hello there

 

Im thinking that the optic you saw was just a placeholder due to it's low poly count.

 

With the effort they are putting into the weapons systems, I would be amazed if we cant use back up sights.

 

Also the capability was in A2. I'd bet 50p we'll see similar in the SA.

 

Rgds

 

LoK

I was thinking surely they would add something like that, but I thought I'd suggest it nonetheless. Also, I thought they decided to go with high res, low poly weapon models for performance reasons anyway? I don't mind the model that was shown, I just thought it odd that he was shooting with what looked like his CCO off or out of batteries or something and only using the front sight post. It could have been a glitch. 

 

Thanks for the reply

[itsDIETZ 20]

Actually, for your information, I do, and I find your assumption quite rude. Fact of the matter is, if no one is going to complain that the modular attachment system allows sights to be put on too quickly, then there's no sense in leaving back up sights when you can take the scope back off just as easily. So quite politely, fuck you.

No, sir. Fuck you!  :thumbsup:  :D. Seriously, though. You say I'm rude when you come up with a response like "Or... you just take the scope off after the battery dies...". That was rather rude and deserved such a reply. You didn't bring anything constructive to the topic.

 

Back to the topic, I don't understand why you would argue against it. It's not a complicated concept at all and is only beneficial to the player. Game play wise, (and realistically) chances are you aren't going to be carrying (let alone find) both a CCO and a detachable carry handle sight (which they showed in the video). It would be impractical and a waste of precious space. That's the whole purpose behind the BUIS concept. And remember this is a game that tries to be as "authentic" and immersive as possible. So, this is really no stretch for it.

 

Anyways, Thanks for the reply. 

Edited August 7, 2013 by -RoosteR-

[AP_Norris 1018]

How about, when you take off the scope iron sights are automatically put on?

[itsDIETZ 20]

How about, when you take off the scope iron sights are automatically put on?

Hmm, I could see that.  My IRL rifle is set up with a 1-4x scope so to use my BUIS I would have to take it off.  Part of the reason for having them with a CCO, is you don't even have to remove it with them on. Hence, why you need your sights aligned properly.

 

Thanks for the reply

 

My personal rifle:

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

I don't see the issue, since the video that you cite clearly showed rocket nailing zombies with that very same m4. Also, yeah. You could just remove the optic.

[TheOldManoftheNorth 15]

the point he's making- if you have to remove it in your UI during combat, you're combat ineffective... and if the other guy can actually shoot... it means you're dead.  So, technically you should not have to remove the optics to use them.  RCOs or otherwise. 

 

p.s.- Woodland, why not an anglemounted system?

[itsDIETZ 20]

I don't see the issue, since the video that you cite clearly showed rocket nailing zombies with that very same m4. Also, yeah. You could just remove the optic.

 

You don't see the issue? The red dot looked OFF. Which means you have NOTHING to aim with, especially if you removed. Idk WHY it was off (maybe introducing batteries and such, idk). How are you supposed to hit your target without a proper sight?  In the footage he was popping zeds with it regardless (probably because of game mechanics) but for a game that goes for realism, it needs a new battery or a BUIS. Simple. 

 

If you just removed your sight, you're even worse off.

Edited August 7, 2013 by -RoosteR-

[itsDIETZ 20]

the point he's making- if you have to remove it in your UI during combat, you're combat ineffective... and if the other guy can actually shoot... it means you're dead.  So, technically you should not have to remove the optics to use them.  RCOs or otherwise. 

 

p.s.- Woodland, why not an anglemounted system?

You, sir, hit the nail on the head. I guess I'm not the best at explaining myself or something, no one else seems to get it.

 

Also, are you asking why not an angle mounted system in game or on my setup?

Edited August 7, 2013 by -RoosteR-

[AP_Norris 1018]

You don't see the issue? The red dot looked OFF. Which means you have NOTHING to aim with, especially if you removed. Idk WHY it was off (maybe introducing batteries and such, idk). How are you supposed to hit your target without a proper sight?  In the footage he was popping zeds with it regardless (probably because of game mechanics) but for a game that goes for realism, it needs a new battery or a BUIS. Simple. 

 

If you just removed your sight, you're even worse off.

No there's carry handle rear sights and the standard M4 front sight to go with it.

Watch the vid and you can see the front sight basically where the red dot should be.

[LancerG2 369]

I'm in agreement of such an Idea. This game needs to be a pain in the ass, and this will do perfectly. Now we must rserve out batteries for either our NVG/CCO/flashlight. What would you choose as darkness approaches.

[SalamanderAnder (DayZ) 1747]

You don't see the issue? The red dot looked OFF. Which means you have NOTHING to aim with, especially if you removed. Idk WHY it was off (maybe introducing batteries and such, idk). How are you supposed to hit your target without a proper sight?  In the footage he was popping zeds with it regardless (probably because of game mechanics) but for a game that goes for realism, it needs a new battery or a BUIS. Simple. 

 

lol and yet rocket was consistently shooting zombies with the iron sight through the scope, so again. I don't really see your point here. What I'm saying is that the weapon was clearly still effective with the sight turned off. Also you can remove it. All these options exist, and the guns aren't even finished on top of that. They still need to add lots of other functionalities like the bayonet. Let's all just calm down about the weapons until we actually get to try them.

Edited August 8, 2013 by SalamanderAnder

[itsDIETZ 20]

lol and yet rocket was consistently shooting zombies with the iron sight through the scope, so again. I don't really see your point here. What I'm saying is that the weapon was clearly still effective with the sight turned off. Also you can remove it. All these options exist, and the guns aren't even finished on top of that. They still need to add lots of other functionalities like the bayonet. Let's all just calm down about the weapons until we actually get to try them.

Yes, he was. And that's part of what I was getting it. In reality, you would be lucky to hit anything that way. I made this suggestion for the sake of authenticity, which this game strives to achieve. I understand that the weapons aren't done yet. That's why this is in the suggestion section.

 

I was hoping to get more replies from real shooters who would understand where I'm coming from with this. As a gun nut, you constantly take note of things like that.

Edited August 8, 2013 by -RoosteR-

[itsDIETZ 20]

I'm in agreement of such an Idea. This game needs to be a pain in the ass, and this will do perfectly. Now we must rserve out batteries for either our NVG/CCO/flashlight. What would you choose as darkness approaches.

If I remember right, they stated they were adding batteries.  I just wonder if that's why it looked like the CCO wasn't on.  I like the idea a lot myself

[itsDIETZ 20]

No there's carry handle rear sights and the standard M4 front sight to go with it.

Watch the vid and you can see the front sight basically where the red dot should be.

I get what your saying, and that may work fine in game but it isn't realistic at all or practical. Which is why I brought it up. He may be hitting spot on just fine but in reality, would be lucky to hit your target at all.  I saw the carry handle, but swapping back and forth is unrealistic, and why would you want to carry that extra weight in game anyway? That's an extra slot taken up, when BUIS should take up an attachment slot along with your CCO. Do you see what I mean now?

[AP_Norris 1018]

I get what your saying, and that may work fine in game but it isn't realistic at all or practical. Which is why I brought it up. He may be hitting spot on just fine but in reality, would be lucky to hit your target at all.  I saw the carry handle, but swapping back and forth is unrealistic, and why would you want to carry that extra weight in game anyway? That's an extra slot taken up, when BUIS should take up an attachment slot along with your CCO. Do you see what I mean now?

I saw what you were saying from the start.

But personally I don't think it matters all too much, everything is done through the inventory!

[itsDIETZ 20]

I saw what you were saying from the start.

But personally I don't think it matters all too much, everything is done through the inventory!

Well I still would like it to be real, I think many other people would like it too.

[AP_Norris 1018]

Well I still would like it to be real, I think many other people would like it too.

Maybe in a later version.

[scubaman3d 680]

Hello there

 

Im thinking that the optic you saw was just a placeholder due to it's low poly count.

 

 

 

Its actually a bug, not a placeholder. The attachment system works via proxies placed on the M4 base model. The engine is supposed to render the LOD of the proxy mesh which corresponds to the observed LOD in game (i.e. if you're in 1st person view, the 1st person proxy mesh should render for you).

 

This wasn't happening at the time the video was made and the engine was rendering one of the 3rd person LODs (lower poly to save on performance for others). Dean told me just yesterday, this bug was fixed.

 

As for BUIS - yes we are planning on making BUIS for the M4 (actually I have both a MaTech and MBUIS high poly models from previous projects already made so its just a matter of me making something game-ready and then letting Dean and Jirka see what they can conjure up with them).

 

edit: oh and regarding cowitness...its not necessary in the game. Actually the way the game works means the rear sight aperture is just eyecandy. IRL the rear sight tells you 'you're perpendicular to the front post' but you're forced to have perfect perpendicularity in-game because you don't have 6-DOF when aiming. Your aimpoint can turn off but it really won't have an impact on your aim in game :P

 

Of course, for eye candy purposes, I think it should be there...but in practice, it wouldn't surprise me if people go rear aperture-less to maintain greater situational awareness.

[Korsbaek 1778]

Its actually a bug, not a placeholder. The attachment system works via proxies placed on the M4 base model. The engine is supposed to render the LOD of the proxy mesh which corresponds to the observed LOD in game (i.e. if you're in 1st person view, the 1st person proxy mesh should render for you).

 

This wasn't happening at the time the video was made and the engine was rendering one of the 3rd person LODs (lower poly to save on performance for others). Dean told me just yesterday, this bug was fixed.

 

As for BUIS - yes we are planning on making BUIS for the M4 (actually I have both a MaTech and MBUIS high poly models from previous projects already made so its just a matter of me making something game-ready and then letting Dean and Jirka see what they can conjure up with them).

 

edit: oh and regarding cowitness...its not necessary in the game. Actually the way the game works means the rear sight aperture is just eyecandy. IRL the real sight tells you 'you're perpendicular to the front post' but you're forced to have perfect perpendicularity in-game because you don't have 6-DOF when aiming. Your aimpoint can turn off but it really won't have an impact on your aim in game :P

 

Of course, for eye candy purposes, I think it should be there...but in practice, it wouldn't surprise me if people go rear aperture-less to maintain greater situational awareness.

 

You're my new favourite DayZ staff because your grammar is good.