Third person idea

[dulix11 731]

I'm not sure if this has been suggested, but here it goes:

So third person has been a target of debate in the standalone, mainly because it is very exploitable (looking around corners, looking behind things etc) so why not set it out like this:

Players, zombies, loot, vehicles and anything of interest is invisible until your character is directly facing it. So it will seem as though nothing is there if you're looking there in third person. Hopefully then it will encourage more people to use first person in firefights and engagements.

If you're hiding behind a wall in 3rd person, scanning for players no-one will appear, but as soon as your character is facing them, they appear again.

The human eye can see ~150º if the internet is correct, so players in a 150º FoV will appear to the player.

I have edited a large portion of this suggestion as most people seem to be focused more on the third person idea rather than the others.

Thats all for now, please tell me what you think.

Edited June 24, 2013 by dulix11

[applejaxc 2500]

Was interested until I got to "Arrow hybrid thing should be included."

That is an ArmA 2/3 feature, used because UAV and teammates can identify and locate targets and relay that information to the team. There's a tactical level of information attempted to be portrayed in the map that video games can't correctly relay real life situations.

I hope to God that it isn't included in the SA. It's basically cheating. Official servers are run on veteran difficulty for a REASON: Things like map markers aren't seeable. You have to be playing on an easy-mode (recruit or whatever is just above it) to be able to use map markers.

[HazZarD87 166]

Third person is there for a reason. Because the arma engine severly limits you in the amount of movements you can make they have included third person. It helps you see how you are positioned because you cannot feel it like in real life. And the looking around corners etc. is there since IRl you would be able to peak around things, trough cracks in fences or just slightly raise your head to see, whereas in the ArmA engine you'd have to kneel and expose far more of yourself. 3rd person serves a purpose and as we could see in the SA videos it's simply gonna stay.

[dulix11 731]

Was interested until I got to "Arrow hybrid thing should be included."

I didn't say that the little cursor should be included. I was using that as an example:

You hide behind a wall and use 3rd person to look around the place; there is no-one there, but as soon as you look out there, and get a player in your LoS, whether that be in 1st or 3rd person, they appear. They are invisible as long as you are hiding behind a wall, using the 3rd person camera to look for people.

So, once you properly spot a person, then decide to hide behind the wall again, the person stays there, but doesn't move in the right direction. The 'dummy target' might move 30m toward you, but if you get the player in your LoS again, you'll find he only moved 10m in front.

Thats what happens with the arrow. It might move 50m toward you, but upon closer inspection, the real player hasn't moved.

Very hard to explain :/

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

Beans for the idea that players/zeds/loot etc are all invisible to you in 3rd person until it comes within your characters line of sight. That is a sweet idea that eliminates the supernatural advantage 3rd person currently gives the users of this exploit.

Edited June 23, 2013 by (MUC) Feral

[Target Practice (DayZ) 1335]

My second idea is that you can blind fire.

You duck behind a wall and hold down shift while you click and you put your gun around the corner to fire. Of course you don't know exactly where the target is, but it could be useful to make sure that the person has their head down while you or your buddies make a run across the road.

This one's been suggested a couple of times, and my personal opinion is that it would be a wonderful way of wasting all your ammo and not a whole lot else.

Unless you wanted it to be horribly overpowered, it would be realistic to assume that you have an icecube in hell's chance of actually hitting anything person-sized from more than 20-30m away. The person you're trying to hit is going to know that, and will likely just go prone (or even just stand still) and wait for you to burn through all your ammo whilst hitting absolutely nothing, then wait for you to have to stick your head to run because you don't have enough ammo left to fight.

It's a nice idea, and it wouldn't break the game or anything like that, but I simply cannot see any situation where it's actually going to be a valid and useful tactic - use it in the open (behind a wall in a field or something) and your opponent will just wait for you to run out of ammo. Use it in a town and your opponent will either just flank you or wait for the thousands of zombies you just aggroed to get you instead.

[King Tubbs 224]

the idea that player loot ect should be invisable has been brought up before BUT it is unworkable the amount of sever useage to do this would be extreame

its unworkable unless you are happy with 10 fps on a top of the range pc

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

the idea that player loot ect should be invisable has been brought up before BUT it is unworkable the amount of sever useage to do this would be extreame

Where'd you get that idea?

The "server-usage" would be the same. The server is always trying to tell you where everything is, the only difference would be that your client doesn't render most of it (because it's out of your line of sight).

If anything you'd get more FPS that way

O/T. I think we're getting a similar "stance adjust" to ArmA3, so poking around corners is possible without "blindfiring".

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

the idea that player loot ect should be invisable has been brought up before BUT it is unworkable the amount of sever useage to do this would be extreame

its unworkable unless you are happy with 10 fps on a top of the range pc

how exactly can rendering less items on the screen increase fps?

edit - lol, ninja'd at 1:07pm

Edited June 23, 2013 by (MUC) Feral

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

The "ghost" enemy (when out of LOS) would be more confusing than anything else.

It'd be better to just not show people if you shouldn't be able to see them, then leave it up to the player to estimate/guess how far a person might have moved in that time.

[Mos1ey 6301]

Beans for the idea that players/zeds/loot etc are all invisible to you in 3rd person until it comes within your characters line of sight. That is a sweet idea that eliminates the supernatural advantage 3rd person currently gives the users of this exploit.

It kind of goes the opposite way and turns it into a supernatural disadvantage though. The think removing the ability to free look while in 3rd-person would be the best way to deal with it.

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

It kind of goes the opposite way and turns it into a supernatural disadvantage though.

No it doesn't, they have the option to switch to 1st person at any time, in 3rd person they would see more of the landscape than a 1st person player and exactly the same amount of players/zeds/items as a 1st person player - i.e. all those within the FOV and only those within the FOV. It's completely fair.

The think removing the ability to free look while in 3rd-person would be the best way to deal with it.

This wouldn't nullify the ability to see over 10 feet high structures or around corners the player is 3 - 4 metres away from, they'll just rotate the player instead of free looking.

Edited June 23, 2013 by (MUC) Feral

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

It kind of goes the opposite way and turns it into a supernatural disadvantage though. The think removing the ability to free look while in 3rd-person would be the best way to deal with it.

I don't think it would bring any kind of disadvantage. You're only blocking objects from view which wouldn't be visible to a player in FPV.

The only disadvantage would be thinking you have an advantage, when really you don't. ^_^

As (MUC) Feral pointed out, removing free-look (having a fixed 3dp camera) would still allow for corner-peeking and seeing over walls, it would just be a bit fiddly.

Considering that (from what I can gather) 3dp was included to give players awareness of their own positioning, restriction of the view-angle would pretty much defeat the purpose.

I'm waiting to see how LOS-drawing, aim-deadzone and lack of crosshairs play into FPV/3dp for SA. I think those have more potential as gamechangers than fixed camera angles if they're done right.

[Mos1ey 6301]

The idea of something being within your FoV yet invisible just doesn't sit well with me. I'd rather 3DP was removed completely than that.

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

The idea of something being within your FoV yet invisible just doesn't sit well with me. I'd rather 3DP was removed completely than that.

everything that lies within your characters FOV would be visible, anything that lies outside your characters FOV, ie from the viewpoint of some supernatural, out of body being that floats about 10 feet behind and 6 feet above your character would remain hidden, for me it is this strange 3rd person mechanic that doesn't sit well. But, some peeps can't seem to be able to live without it, so let's make it fair for all.

Edited June 23, 2013 by (MUC) Feral

[Zuulass 45]

i say just remove third person

and add a little HUD man at the bottom left of screen showing how you are standing/crouching/prone

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

and add a little HUD man at the bottom left of screen showing how you are standing/crouching/prone

It's not about stance, it's about knowing how far your arse sticks out when you poke your head around a tree and stuff like that.

If folks can't tell whether or not they're standing up, they're beyond help. Besides, suggesting for things to be ADDED to the HUD is a big no-no.

[Feral (DayZ) 622]

i say just remove third person

beans for this, I hate that 3rd person exists.

and add a little HUD man at the bottom left of screen showing how you are standing/crouching/prone

Chabowski says it all for me on your 2nd suggestion....

It's not about stance, it's about knowing how far your arse sticks out when you poke your head around a tree and stuff like that.

If folks can't tell whether or not they're standing up, they're beyond help. Besides, suggesting for things to be ADDED to the HUD is a big no-no.

Edited June 23, 2013 by (MUC) Feral

[Clumzy (DayZ) 377]

Third person is there for a reason. Because the arma engine severly limits you in the amount of movements you can make they have included third person. It helps you see how you are positioned because you cannot feel it like in real life. And the looking around corners etc. is there since IRl you would be able to peak around things, trough cracks in fences or just slightly raise your head to see, whereas in the ArmA engine you'd have to kneel and expose far more of yourself. 3rd person serves a purpose and as we could see in the SA videos it's simply gonna stay.

Nobody said anything about removing third person, and I think that being unable to peek through cracks in a wall is a tad bit more realistic than being able to use magic powers to know where someone is when you shouldn't be able to. 3rd person may be staying, but that doesn't mean it will be the same.

I do hope that this gets implemented.

[dulix11 731]

I edited the post to contain only the third person idea, thats all we've come to focus on so, please continue.

[fluxley 2228]

Where'd you get that idea?

The "server-usage" would be the same. The server is always trying to tell you where everything is, the only difference would be that your client doesn't render most of it (because it's out of your line of sight).

If anything you'd get more FPS that way

O/T. I think we're getting a similar "stance adjust" to ArmA3, so poking around corners is possible without "blindfiring".

But then you get the issue of having client decide what you can see which will be vulnerable to sciddies and goes against the whole idea of moving all decisions over to the server.

Players, zombies, loot, vehicles and anything of interest is invisible until your character is directly facing it. So it will seem as though nothing is there if you're looking there in third person. Hopefully then it will encourage more people to use first person in firefights and engagements.

If you're hiding behind a wall in 3rd person, scanning for players no-one will appear, but as soon as your character is facing them, they appear again.

The human eye can see ~150º if the internet is correct, so players in a 150º FoV will appear to the player.

I'm not sure if i totally understand what you're saying here, is it..

1: If you are behind a wall third person only shows you whats on the other side if its within your characters FOV,

or

2: If you are behind a wall third person doesnt show you anything on the other side until you move your character around the wall.

Option 1 has potential i'd say if you also move the third person camera in closer to the player, maybe as close as 1ft either side of the players head, this would encourage a situation where play would be in first person but as you come to a wall you could switch to this slightly detached view to simulate being able to peek around or over, combined with only being able to see where the character is facing this would force the player to have to adjust themselves potentially giving their position away through going slightly too far around the corner or making noise.

Option 2 i'd say defeats the whole point of having third person, its there to compensate for first person views limitations, not being able to peek over fences, not having functional rear view mirrors in a vehicle, might as well do away with it completely.

[dulix11 731]

But then you get the issue of having client decide what you can see which will be vulnerable to sciddies and goes against the whole idea of moving all decisions over to the server.

I'm not sure if i totally understand what you're saying here, is it..

1: If you are behind a wall third person only shows you whats on the other side if its within your characters FOV,

or

2: If you are behind a wall third person doesnt show you anything on the other side until you move your character around the wall.

Option 1 has potential i'd say if you also move the third person camera in closer to the player, maybe as close as 1ft either side of the players head, this would encourage a situation where play would be in first person but as you come to a wall you could switch to this slightly detached view to simulate being able to peek around or over, combined with only being able to see where the character is facing this would force the player to have to adjust themselves potentially giving their position away through going slightly too far around the corner or making noise.

Option 2 i'd say defeats the whole point of having third person, its there to compensate for first person views limitations, not being able to peek over fences, not having functional rear view mirrors in a vehicle, might as well do away with it completely.

Option 2 is what I mean. People just don't like being able look around the corner and spotting their target before he even has a chance.

[fluxley 2228]

Option 2 is what I mean. People just don't like being able look around the corner and spotting their target before he even has a chance.

Yeah, in that case might as well just get rid of third person. the only use it would have left would be to allow people to see their character and that can be done in the inventory screen.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

But then you get the issue of having client decide what you can see which will be vulnerable to sciddies and goes against the whole idea of moving all decisions over to the server

If the server handles EVERYTHING surely it'd be no different than aiming and shooting.

The client wouldn't have any say apart from the direction in which your FOV is facing.

Yeah, in that case might as well just get rid of third person. the only use it would have left would be to allow people to see their character and that can be done in the inventory screen.

The inventory menu doesn't show a point of reference for the world or the placement/stance of the character.

It's more about where you are in relation to everything else than what clothes you're wearing. The gear-model would cover quite a lot of the self-visual aspect but the other functions of 3dp, regarding awareness of your positioning, are the reasons for it being included in the first place.

I'd be happy if 3dp just showed nothing except the player, as far as I can tell, that's what it's for.

[fluxley 2228]

If the server handles EVERYTHING surely it'd be no different than aiming and shooting.

The client wouldn't have any say apart from the direction in which your FOV is facing.

true, and aimbots are going to be a problem that they may never resolve, no need to add another potential exploit.

The inventory menu doesn't show a point of reference for the world or the placement/stance of the character.

It's more about where you are in relation to everything else than what clothes you're wearing. The gear-model would cover quite a lot of the self-visual aspect but the other functions of 3dp, regarding awareness of your positioning, are the reasons for it being included in the first place.

I'd be happy if 3dp just showed nothing except the player, as far as I can tell, that's what it's for.

I didn't consider this as personally i can manage quite well without being able to see my characters body, you can use free look to get a pretty good idea of your position even in first person.

I'd really like to see them work to overcome the flaws of 1st person rather than try to nerf third person.

Things that need to be fixed:

The character needs more flexibility of movement, the ability to peek over walls and around corners in a slow and smooth action that reveals a minimum amount of the players head, another example being a position between prone and crouched that allows you to just see over tall grass without being blatently obvious.

Better audio, more ability to place an enemies position through sound,

Working rear view mirrors in vehicles and the ability to lean to the side when in a vehicle as often the corner pillar can severely obstruct your view.

FOV is too limited in the current mod but that will be easily adjustable in the standalone so thats a step in the right direction.

if they fix all that far more people would be willing to play on first person only servers, and we can just leave the third person servers alone.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Fluxley