Stealth / Zombie Dynamic - Constructive Criticism Thread

[mtuckner 46]

It all depends on Rocket's intent. Does he intend for players to sprint and train 15 zombies through town, losing them in a warehouse to search around? Does he intend to have the zombies so tough that everyone needs to crawl everywhere. Or does he intend a mix of the various situations - say 15% crawling, 25% crouch walk, 50% crouch jog, and 10% zombie train for those "oh crap" moments?

What would be the best experience? A variety of styles mixed together, or a dominance of one particular method of movement? I think the answer is clear; a mix of movement methods is desirable (what the breakdown should be would be a bit more subjective). The next step is to figure out what mechanics create the desired game play outcome.

I still think tougher zombies with the 1.7.0 aggro ranges. How can they be tougher to elicit more fear and higher danger with the lesser aggro? I propose the following:

1. Tougher zombies - Headshots are just as lethal, but increase the shots necessary for the body to bring them down by one or two (one shot pistols anywhere with 1911 is too easy). The zombies can be more formidable, and it can still fit within the scenario; Just as a druggie hyped up on PCP or Bath Salts can take more body damage due to adrenaline, so can these infected. A head shot incapacitates no matter what.

2. Increase Striking Damage - The increased bleed chance is good, but a zombie whack is still relatively harmless. Up it a tad more to make mistakes a little less forgiving.

Playing with these two mechanics can probably find that balance while restoring the fun of moving around town.

[Kain Phalanx 9]

Still beside the point. Or would you be happy for the game to stay this way forever? It's still in Alpha, it can still be changed, and we are here because we want it changed.

Optimizing playstyle and strategies is fun, but only if it's within well established rules, for me. You're basically optimizing for a broken game.

[chibigoat 59]

Stealth is basically pointless now other than hiding from players.. it's not possible to get into a town and out with fat lewts without agroing at atleast 1 zombie... which tends to come with more.

[Nalamin 0]

The game is currently broken in this area. I think Rocket was attempting to increase the danger from zombies and chose methods that just don't work. I am confident that most of the changes of the last few days will be removed after further evaluation.

Basically, zombies should be pretty easy to avoid as long as you use patience and stealth. Placing them on loot points is a bit of a problem with the current aggro levels but otherwise I actually like that component. But a single shot shouldn't bring to much aggro...esp with a pistol. If you are inside a building aggro should be reduced as well.

As to this idea that zombies should "hit" harder...why? They are basically unarmed; how are they causing massive injuries when unarmed? How do they knock survivors out with a single blow? Are they ninja zombies? This has happened to me five or six times and just seems silly to me. If you want them hitting that hard give them an axe or bat. The big danger of zombies should be the swarm...a death from a thousand blows.

[EnermaX 59]

Itsn't this the 10th thread about the some topic?

Anyway, I think 1.7 was best regarding aggrorange/stealth. I hope they take care of this issue.

[Cormac McCarthy 15]

zombie vision is perfect, zombie hearing is to good, they have nasty gunk in there ears lol

[ARBY 3]

I agree, I also believe they should fix zombies warping into buildings. These two and it would be perfect.

[mikyjax 3]

Sorry, just made a new thread about this, I should have put it here.. didn't see:

--------------------------

The ratio enterable building / stealth difficulty seems (to me) unbalanced.

When we come to a small town there is already "a lot" of infected. No prob with that. Problem is you will maybe have 1 enterable structure and MAYBE loot inside and maybe interresting loot.

I love to prone between zombie with an m9 silenced to clean my path. (I am lucky to have a silent weapon) --> Prone + m9 sd works flawlessy.

But, some structures required to be entered at least in crouch stance or you can broke leg or never be able to enter. If you have a z a lil too close and no more sd ammo... ONE single crouch walking step and you got the 9 others going agro. Kinda frustrating, specially when there is no loot inside.

Lot of infected inside buildings preventing any stealth tentatives. I don't know if there are brought there by players or spawning there but it's very annoying.

When prone you are almost invisible (no sound + 1 eye bar) why not to be totally invisible (0 eye bar) when proning holding shift. This move is very very slow and could offer a total stealth. The option is available in arma you could make it usefull in dayz.

The fact that running and firing a gun is the same amount of bars seems unbalanced.

I won't say the actual detection system is ruining the experience since it's not, but I find there a lot of frustrations maybe not necessary.

I think it would be great that the gun sound would be a lil more penalizing while the basic move would be more forgiving because too much stealth ruins the stealth, for now it s far more interresting to run like crazy everywhere sit in a building and fire z 1 by 1 wich is boring and not really the point I think.

Thanks for this awesome game.

[WeTheFallen 4]

i agree with the sentiments of 1.7 having the right feel to it, Some of the best moments i can recall in gaming have been simple stealth missions into a grocery store. Tonight ive watched multiple players just train zeds around, This causes WOW flashbacks in no enjoyable way.

There were times that i thought stealth play was perhaps too easy, but that was the appeal to this game rather than playing a generic fps shooter, now the aggro system is simpley obnoxious.

factor in the increased damage, and the fact that players are constantly leaking and all seem to have brittle bone syndrome, doing anything has become a chore.

Edit: this is the stealth I love. there was no moment in it iwasnt on the edge of my seat....

[MysteriousSpoon 0]

Yes, you're definitely correct about what you've said, however alpha is alpha and everything is still being added and tested, I look at it this way. He is testing all different types of zed mechanics so that eventually he can get it just right for the players, this will take a long time unfortunately (as we have seen from past zed fuck up patches) and we should expect to see more retarded zed behavior in future updates until Rocket gets it to a good, solid playable level.

Hopefully sometime soon we should be seeing the zed behavior that we want :3

[MrLizard 0]

100% agree with the OP.

[Shag 90]

I think stealth zed machanic is perfect in fading light.

During the day things get harder. However, it seems there is more ammo spawning too. Perhaps it would be prudent to find some buddies (I know this is fucking hard) and try and clear out some zeds.

I like the new aggro system. Maybe toned down very very slightly. The effects of the new zeds has really stopped much of the deathmatch BS you used to see in chenro/electro (or was that the no gun spawn).

If the zed spawn rate is sorted, a new investigate state is added which buffers walking state and aggro state (investigate when they hear you/gunfire/light/smoke - aggro when they see you) and stop the crazy zig zagging - and you have a great zed recipe.

YOU SHOULD BE SCARED OF ZOMBIES!

[l mandrake 61]

+1 have to agree, in 1.7.1.4 zeds are over-sensitive, i.e. they see me before I see them, so I spend most of my time being 'ambushed' by zeds out of nowhere and doing the old Benny Hill procession across the countryside. OK it's good for a sudden fright, but not very immersive after a while:

suggestion: lower zed hearing by 15-20%

[Prof. Awesome 3]

100% agree!

[andreamit 2]

I think stealth needs a serious balancing, now it's just I won't say impossible but not worthy, to try and go unoticed. Since you can lose aggro, it's just easier to run and try to lose LOS with zeds.

[Kashus 22]

I like the idea of reverting to 1.7 vision/sound levels for zombies, but make them extremely dangerous if aggroing them. I think getting in and out of town quickly with some clean stealthing, but if you get careless at all, your ass is eaten.

[caballero89 0]

I just started playing yesterday, before this patch and am glad i did. In the few hours i played before i went to bed, i fell in love with the game, i enjoyed the lvl of sneeking i had to do to avoid some zombies, it wasn't so hard that you had to crawl thru towns, and avoid any houses with stairs. If i came in today, i would have left the game by now lol. Im hoping they are going to revert the stealth back to how it was pre-today.

There are to many little quirks in the arma engine to have them that able to detect people. You can bump into something and start running for a split second, and you can't crawl up stairs for starters(at least i couldn't) If this happens, i don't think you should have the whole town on ur a** lol.

[farran 0]

I really liked DayZ until the new zombie AI came out. I thought the stealth was a perfect balance for detection range' date=' etc. during 1.7.0. I'm good at this game as well, and with the new whacky zombies I can still get into town and get out with loot, so failing isn't the problem. The problem is the balance of movement while around zombies. It is dominated by prone crawling more than anything. Crouch walk is even a massive risk, and forget about crouch jogging as before. It's just not all that fun to be honest.

Yes, there is more fear of the zombies now and more care must be taken - but that doesn't improve the game by making them difficult in this manner. I think the 1.7.0 stealth was fine, but find a different way to make the zombies feared instead of this new AI - which frankly, Arma AI is terrible and trying to make the zombies smart isn't working well.

If you want zombies to be a real obstacle to be feared, make it so they do more damage when you make a mistake during stealth. Make it so one zombie howls, and calls the others nearby or something.

As is, you have to just belly your way through which is just boring. Even still, you go to crouch to loot something and a zombie 20 yards away will aggro, or you will crawl through a door and your character stands up - again causing aggro. It's just a less engaging experience.

Just wanted to get my opinion out there.

[/quote']

The more they change, the more stops playing Dayz as it is now.

all of our members have stopped playing days and we are 30.

I mean, the more they change what we think is really good, the more stops playing

Dayz. Now we have reached a point where major changes are made constantly.

I Quoting Rocket:

"You Have to Be brutally honest, sit down, and maybe sometimes it makes you want to rage, but sometimes you've Designed mechanics are stupid and They need to be removed. We're variable to experiments like that, and the community is more or less okay with it. The crippling bugs might get moaned about a little, but people are really quite Accepting. "

I really hope Rocket listen to us.

//farran

[caballero89 0]

from

replaced by makarov = hacked gear according to people on the forum.

I really liked DayZ until the new zombie AI came out. I thought the stealth was a perfect balance for detection range' date=' etc. during 1.7.0. I'm good at this game as well, and with the new whacky zombies I can still get into town and get out with loot, so failing isn't the problem. The problem is the balance of movement while around zombies. It is dominated by prone crawling more than anything. Crouch walk is even a massive risk, and forget about crouch jogging as before. It's just not all that fun to be honest.

Yes, there is more fear of the zombies now and more care must be taken - but that doesn't improve the game by making them difficult in this manner. I think the 1.7.0 stealth was fine, but find a different way to make the zombies feared instead of this new AI - which frankly, Arma AI is terrible and trying to make the zombies smart isn't working well.

If you want zombies to be a real obstacle to be feared, make it so they do more damage when you make a mistake during stealth. Make it so one zombie howls, and calls the others nearby or something.

As is, you have to just belly your way through which is just boring. Even still, you go to crouch to loot something and a zombie 20 yards away will aggro, or you will crawl through a door and your character stands up - again causing aggro. It's just a less engaging experience.

Just wanted to get my opinion out there.

[/quote']

The more they change, the more stops playing Dayz as it is now.

all of our members have stopped playing days and we are 30.

I mean, the more they change what we think is really good, the more stops playing

Dayz. Now we have reached a point where major changes are made constantly.

I Quoting Rocket:

"You Have to Be brutally honest, sit down, and maybe sometimes it makes you want to rage, but sometimes you've Designed mechanics are stupid and They need to be removed. We're variable to experiments like that, and the community is more or less okay with it. The crippling bugs might get moaned about a little, but people are really quite Accepting. "

I really hope Rocket listen to us.

//farran

Would be nice to hear what Rocket says about the new stealth. I myself am gonna stick around, idk if im going to play tho until something changes, i can't even get into towns during the day without every zombie in the city after me, i died and spawned back in with a zombie running at me from the road lol, i had to book it to the dock next to the town i spawned near, and had at least 23 zombies sitting on the edge. (i guess they can't go onto docks/piers?)

[thygrrr 1]

I POSITIVELY like the new zombie and stealth dynamics.

Some ground types cause a bit too much noise when crouch-walking (dry grass = surprise zombie buttsecks), but overall it is absolutely FINE.

Stay close to walls and cover for your visibility to drop sharply. This is very realistic and easy to learn.

[stimpen 0]

+1 Agree. But zombies should not be more powerfull than now. A couple of times they have broken my bones on the first hit and I was close to die after the latest patches.

If they where even more powerful you would die if you did just one mistake.

Boring and timeconsuming to prone and crawl the whole time. croush is totally worthless nowdays and the zombies line of sight doesent seem to be affected by buildings.

[Kashus 22]

I posted this in another thread, but I'll post it here too, because I feel that it is pertinent to the discussion.

This what I have missed from the game.

The creepiest times I have had were when I was in a building with a couple zombies around it at night and knowing that a player might be out there as well, waiting for me to exit ("Was that a player's footsteps?!?!? or a zombie?!?!?! Is there someone in this building with me?!? FUCK HURRY, I need to get the fuck out of here!"). It's the anticipation of an eminent and quick death that frightened me. It made me want to take bizarre routes to certain buildings so that I could scope it out effectively. The new night changes and super zombies have erased that sense of unease for me. I am sure that I am not alone in my opinion.

[BennyBoy 16]

There's one positive from the increased sensitivity of the zed's, and that is everyone is so pre-occupied with not aggro'ing them that they are less likely to shoot players on sight now.

I was on UK7 last night and a player crouch walked right past me at Pustoshka, it was really dark so he may not have seen me, but I didn't shoot him either - which is pretty darned rare up north on that server.

[Bal Sofs Tihl 7]

It seems to me that the biggest problem is this: an infected hears you crouch walking from way far away and immediately sprints right to you, forcing you to run to get out of his line-of-sight, which attracts more infected which forces more running. The effect is that stealth is limited and playing the game as an arcade-y shooter/freeze tag simulation is the best way to search for supplies, even when you are solo. This is not fun.

My suggestions:

1. Lower the noise levels of crouch walking. It is not that hard to crouch and sneak along quietly in real life and I think making it slightly easier than in real life would be best, in order to account for a lack of control and body awareness in the game.

2. If an infected detects you by sound only, it should make some kind of identifying noise and then walk at its regular walking speed toward the location at which you made the sound. Only when it spots you visually from a close enough distance to identify you as food should it go into sprinting kill mode. If these infected were madly chasing after every little noise, then they should be sprinting all over the place at all times. I hear a ton of fence clanging and horses and other ambient noises that should make them crazy, but that is not how it works. So, three modes: roaming , alerted and kill.

3. Gunshots should be much louder. Right now, most gunshots make about the same amount of noise as running, it seems. Make gunshots put all infected spawned for your character into alerted(walking toward the sound) mode.

I think this would create the best stealth game. Unfortunately, I have no idea how feasible that is within the engine.

[okano666@hotmail.co.uk 81]

It was so shockingly easy before this patch it was even funny.

Zombies were no worry at all, they were so blind they couldnt even see you crouch walk past them 5yards away in broad daylight.

Now they are alot better, it takes time to get into town and you actually aggro zombies if you want to move fast.

In big towns and alot of players its not just the other players you have to worry about now.

Man Up guys :)

Hope you get abit more used to it