Suggestions to solve the biggest issues

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Good and evil are hard to forget isn't it?

Rocket is taking a poll wether he should get rid of the bandits for now because it's making the mod more complex to code than it should be (check his poll for details)

the current friction with bandits is that most noobs that hear about them are scared shitless at the first one they see they have a fight or flight response, where they should see "oh there is a player", does he look hostile to me?"

From the bandit side: "Fucking noob killed me! *pissed, go kill a few peoples*"

The bandits skin is nothing more than an enforced stereotype.

[super pretendo 2]

Sure the bandit skin is a brand that doesn't necessarily reflect you as a player, but that's really the way of things, in game or in real life. I have a bandit skin and it's harder for players to trust me. But I can also know who to pick out in a down to bring "frontier justice" and clean towns of PKers.

[The Killing Joke 43]

Sure the bandit skin is a brand that doesn't necessarily reflect you as a player' date=' but that's really the way of things, in game or in real life.[/quote']

I respectfully disagree with the 'real life' aspect. I know a whole metric tonne of jerks who hide in plain sight. I hope that the game developers return the game to its roots, in this regard.

TKJ

[super pretendo 2]

I'm saying people aren't always what they seem on the outside in real life

[The Killing Joke 43]

I'm saying people aren't always what they seem on the outside in real life

Ahh, gotcha! Sorry, I misunderstood. (All the more reason to do away with the bandit skins altogether!)

;)

TKJ

[Leechman 8]

Sigh, I'm not going to argue whether bandits should be punished. I'm over it.

Your suggestion will alienate a section of the playerbase and goes against the developer's intentions.

Whether you believe it or not, you are adding rules to the game that inhibit player freedom AND immersion. Something rocket is vehemently against.

Whether you realise it or not your system is a punishment that exhibits favouritism to one playstyle. Be open-minded about what your are suggesting.

Shifting the balance of risk is what is needed. Make zombies far more dangerous. Especially towards 'active'(firing guns, running etc) players. Zombies are the key, and the perfect deterrent.

Is having to do this a dealbreaker in a survival mod that's already 225 square miles of land that people travel on foot?

Correcting your size dimensions here.

It is Kilometres not miles.

And Just for the record' date=' the map is 15km x 15km. When people hear "255km2" I think they get the wrong idea about size.

15km is not a huge amount of distance to run. It's not even half a marathon. And that's only if you're running from absolute south (in the ocean) to absolute north or from absolute East (in the ocean) to absolute west.

Because I was fighting a griefer, I had to crawl back to a town with 600 blood with a broken leg. But thats what this mod is, it's hardcore.

I understand hardcore. Because a crawler zombie was so silent in the dead of night (I had no moonlight) and got a lucky knockout I was crawling back to the NE airfield from the far side of Krasnostav with a broken leg, 212 blood and the shakes to find friends for medical supplies. Instead, I found their corpses and the horde that took them down hovering over them. I managed to move most of them away with my trusty whiskey bottle and got some morphine/pain killers. I passed out as I was about to climb the ladder to the control tower to find the guy who had blood packs and get promptly stumbled over by a zombie who decided to turn the corner and path straight towards me.

Your spawn suggestion does nothing to improve the 'hardcore' nature of the game you speak of. In fact it detracts from it, by separating potentially hostile players from the mix along the beach.

Instead, shift the balance of risk. Make Active methods of playing more dangerous by increasing the number and hostility of zombies. When you see another player and have to weigh up the risks of shooting him for his beans (or just for fun) against the massive number of zombies that will descend on you for firing your gun, an your chance of survival, you are deterring reckless gameplay and creating the challenge which you seem so adamant about while making the overall game more realistic and fun.

What we have now is just displacing the bandits with no resolution for the players that tried to do something within the game. So let's give players the power to resolve such conflicts themselves with this small change.

I'm not entirely sure I understand your meaning behind these sentences. Your suggestion of affecting spawn locations/starting gear IS 'just displacing the bandits with no resolution for the players that tried to do something within the game'.

I'm also not sure how affecting spawn locations/starting gear will 'give players the power to resolve such conflicts between themselves'

The way I'm reading them, it sounds like you're arguing against yourself? :/

[super pretendo 2]

Because changing respawning into something more damning for players that grief lets opposing players anti-griefing efforts more permanent. Let's say we absurdly did the very opposite of what I suggest, and low humanity players pick their spawn locations and get to respawn with the gear they had. Would killing them really solve anything? Not really.

[Leechman 8]

How about instead, we don't change anything to do with spawn locations?

Nobody gets a choice and its all random. Everyone is happy. The End.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

Griefing imho is an integral part of this game, and play a big role in the adventure and danger sense of it.

Actually ... i don't even think this word has a meaning in this context, there are plenty of zombie related games that do not involve players killing players to satisfy this kind of gameplay, the reason everyone is flocking toward this mod is because it's basically NOT like your average zombie MP game.

[super pretendo 2]

How about instead' date=' we don't change anything to do with spawn locations?

Nobody gets a choice and its all random. Everyone is happy. The End.

[/quote']

But clearly everyone is not happy. We need to put the power into the hands of the players to be able to solve griefing problems themselves, and spawning tweaks can do this. Why are you so mouth-frothingly against this?

Griefing imho is an integral part of this game' date=' and play a big role in the adventure and danger sense of it.

Actually ... i don't even think this word has a meaning in this context, there are plenty of zombie related games that do not involve players killing players to satisfy this kind of gameplay, the reason everyone is flocking toward this mod is because it's basically NOT like your average zombie MP game.

[/quote']

Where do people get this idea that i'm arguing against player killing? Player killing as a game mechanic should be left as is with players always able to kill other players: no artificial "no-pvp" shit. PvP is awesome, but that doesn't mean it needs to outweigh the zombie and survival aspects of a zombie survival game in the ludicrously gigantic way it does now.

[The Killing Joke 43]

But clearly everyone is not happy. We need to put the power into the hands of the players to be able to solve griefing problems themselves' date=' and spawning tweaks can do this. Why are you so mouth-frothingly against this?[/quote']

I'm fairly certain people are against it, because a simple 'good for everybody' solution hasn't been found. Most (not all, I guarantee you) would not argue if there was a fair treatment for good guys and bad guys alike. Unfortunately, ideas like 'give the good guys nice spawn points' or 'make the bad guys spawn in their underwear with no weapons' aren't fair. (Phrasing!)

Unfortunately, when you have a 'fix' that favours one player type (Bandit skins, anyone?) you automatically have that player type who now have a complaint.

TKJ

[super pretendo 2]

I am a bandit. But I don't think I need to be coddled by the developers and be given some special privileged position where I can ruin everyone else's gameplay without any consequence.

And I never said bandit's should spawn without weapons. The fact that you need to misrepresent the suggested solution indicates that you can't argue against my real suggestion.

[The Killing Joke 43]

I am a bandit. But I don't think I need to be coddled by the developers and be given some special privileged position where I can ruin everyone else's gameplay without any consequence.

And I agree. But' date=' where we seem to differ, is in the fact that you cannot give unfair treatment out just because a bandit goes around killing innocents. Oh, and sure you are.

And I never said bandit's should spawn without weapons. The fact that you need to misrepresent the suggested solution indicates that you can't argue against my real suggestion.

Don't go giving me that 'God of the Gaps' crap. Firstly, nowhere did I say you said anything I posted. And I believe my stance of 'no unfair treatment' holds true against any suggestion where a player group is unfairly hindered.

TKJ

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

In all the best zombie books & movies, the zombies are a backdrop for what is the real meat of the story:

The reactions and interactions of the different protagonists in a chaotic world where they are torn between their needs, their wants and clinging to the last shreds of civilisation.

[super pretendo 2]

In all the best zombie fiction, human-human encounters are met with trepidation and drama, not d4rksn1p3r420[n0sc0pe]'s leet dubstep killstreak. The world should definitely be savage. But not to the point of player interaction being a battle of getting the first shot and nothing else.

There SHOULD be a possibility someone is a dick, and they should have the power to kill people. But it shouldn't be as banal, shallow and thoughtless as it is now. People should be afraid of the zombie apocalypse that just destroyed the world first, and in a close second, the inhumanity of some other humans. Not the other way around.

[The Killing Joke 43]

There SHOULD be a possibility someone is a dick' date=' and they should have the power to kill people. But it shouldn't be as banal, shallow and thoughtless as it is now. People should be afraid of the zombie apocalypse that just destroyed the world first, and in a close second, the inhumanity of some other humans. Not the other way around.[/quote']

I disagree, and here is why.

Zombies are like a hungry animal. They have a single base instinct, and that is to kill players. Humans have an instinct to not only survive, but to thrive. Some, by any means necessary. In this game, we don't have to worry about the zombies - they do one trick, and one trick only. They attack. People, on the other hand, people are savage.

In EvE Online, I watched a player everybody respected rise through the ranks of a Corporation over the course of six months, and making a bunch friends while he was at it, steal EVERYTHING that a bunch of players who had played for OVER TWO YEARS had gathered. The same can be done in this game, mark my words.

And I wouldn't have it any other way. Regardless of whether I'm the one who does it, or who has it done to them.

TKJ

[super pretendo 2]

The grimdark misanthropy that "hurr humans are always 100% evil" just doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Even opposing humans have reason to cooperate against the unthinkable, and this is one of the most compelling aspects of zombie fiction is when humans that would normally hate eachother and kill to take their stuff are forced to cooperate and find common cause.

And in eve online there is a karma or "security level" system and it works

[The Killing Joke 43]

Your opinion of what does, and does not, stand up to scrutiny is just that - your opinion. I have mine, and while it differs greatly, I recognize it's just that as well. Time will tell if the bandit skins remain in-game.

And in eve online there is a karma or "security level" system and it works

It didn't affect me in the least. I never killed anyone who didn't shoot me first. That being said, I was one of the most hated players in the game because of my use of legal game mechanics. I was "The" Ninja Salvager who started a revolution. I was, and am, Tchell Dahhn. (I got a magazine article written about my exploits, actually.)

But enough about me. Let's talk about you. What do you think of me?

:D

TKJ

[super pretendo 2]

Your opinion of what does, and does not, stand up to scrutiny is just that - your opinion. I have mine, and while it differs greatly, I recognize it's just that as well. Time will tell if the bandit skins remain in-game.

n...no... outside of taste and opinions there is a way humans react and interact in the face of catastrophe, and it isn't to try to get freaking killstreaks when it makes no sense for their own survival and civilization

[samjwbrowne@gmail.com 15]

I agree in principle with pretendo, but I'm really not sure how it can be applied to a computer game. That's the main difference, and what causes the huge bandit problems that occur, is that killing someone in a game is something you don't even think about. Whereas in real life you would (very, very hopefully) think twice about killing someone for the sake of it. Or even to survive, without even asking for help or something first.

Maybe the problem will be a long way towards being solved by just fixing direct chat (which I understand is being worked on). As is, communication between you and a guy around the corner is ridiculously difficult if direct voice isn't working, which means that 90% of the time it's way easier to shoot someone incase they shoot you. If you do decide to try and communicate first, it's lost in the sea of side chat and you become infinitely more vulnerable simply by opening the text box. Further, it's a hell of a lot easier to type 'friendly' and be lying than to convince someone by voice.

I've personally been in situations where I've desperately needed some kind of supply (usually painkillers), and seen someone. Easiest and by far safest solution at this stage in the game would be to shoot him and hope he has them (as my friends on Skype were urging me to do), but in the end I risked using the chat system to ask if he has any and would help me. He did, which made my friends reconsider and agree that it was probably better I didn't shoot him (except for one of them, but he's a dickhead). So if I could have just asked him easily over direct, while keeping my gun on him, and gotten a response there would have been a lot less risk involved.

Sorry this is so long... apparently I'd rather be writing essays on how vital communication is to humanity, than one on what issues TV journalists are facing in 2012 (due tomorrow!).

[Leechman 8]

We need to put the power into the hands of the players to be able to solve griefing problems themselves' date=' and spawning tweaks can do this. Why are you so mouth-frothingly against this?

[/quote']

I've explained why I'm against this.

ideas like 'give the good guys nice spawn points' or 'make the bad guys spawn in their underwear with no weapons' aren't fair.

More or less sums it up.

You're suggesting something that gives a blanket punishment to ALL players who have low humanity. Whether they chose that lifestyle' date=' or want to remain that way or not. If you want to know my reasoning read my previous posts in this thread. Not going into detail again.

Also, you've said before the 'put power in the hands of players' thing. I still don't see how unfairly altering the spawn points of bandits is putting power into the hands of survivors to solve the problem themselves. IT MAKES NO SENSE.

You keep harping on about how you're a bandit therefore your idea is somehow immediately valid. Try and be open minded.

no... outside of taste and opinions there is a way humans react and interact in the face of catastrophe, and it isn't to try to get freaking killstreaks when it makes no sense for their own survival and civilization

Whether or not you realise it, your opinion on what would happen in an apocalypse such as this is irrelevant. No-one can know what would happen. Using your beliefs to back up your arguments is poor reasoning.

Maybe the problem will be a long way towards being solved by just fixing direct chat

I think this is what is making people more concerned about bandits at the moment. With Direct Chat fixed, people might be a little more relaxed about it all.

[Goldstein (DayZ) 46]

Instead of nerfing banditry, I think it would be better to emulate (hypothetically) the advantages of cooperating with other survivors. At the moment, the real-life advantages are kind of missing and the balance tips wildly in the favour of banditry.

Theoretically by killing off survivors indiscriminately, you're increasing the power of the zombehs and your own liklihood of becoming lunch. (not quite how it works atm)

For longterm potential, the equilibrium needs to always be in a state of flux.

i.e. Co-operation is needed to bring the zombies under control. With zombies semi-contained, allegiances break down as resources get more scarce, banditry returns.

Zombies regain strength during that chaos, the cycle begins over. Win.

An emphasis on trade would be good too. A Post-apocalypse economy is lacking, and substituted for by a lucky dip of spawns. If someone likes being a bandit, they should have certain goods to offer those that prefer to carebear. (i.e. weaponry and goods found outside of towns.. or acquired 'unethically')

Likewise, citydwellers should have access to goods that a lone bandit wouldn't have a hope in hell of acquiring solo. (i.e. food and medical goods, that could only be acquired by large scale raids on zombie hoarde dominated areas like hospitals and shops)

The necessity to trade would also encourage interraction (so long as brownie points were no longer given for capping someone of the opposite persuasion) This is for good and bad also. The odd mexican stand-off over a can of beans vs. a productive deal, maybe finding some people to team up with and go off on a raid with.

Ultimately towns should be terrifying zombie riddled places, and the outskirts a hunting grounds that only the smartest survive. Yet both working in harmony. Over-confident large groups of survivors trying to head out into the woods should expect to attract a lot of attention and no mercy. Ditto for dirty harry rocking up to zombieholics anonymous meetings in the town square.

That's just how I view the world through zombie-shaped glasses. Sorry if it was longwinded :P

[super pretendo 2]

Whether or not you realise it, your opinion on what would happen in an apocalypse such as this is irrelevant. No-one can know what would happen. Using your beliefs to back up your arguments is poor reasoning.

That's not what an opinion is. You can't have an opinion on the mass of bromine, it's just fact. There is a way humans react to catastrophe, and saying "LOL EVERYONE WILL JUST TRY 2 GET KILLSTREAKS LUL" is fucking ludicrous and ruins the atmosphere of the game.

[Leechman 8]

Ugh...

I think I just had a brain aneurysm.

I quit this thread.

[Thesreyn 18]

That's not what an opinion is. You can't have an opinion on the mass of bromine' date=' it's just fact. There is a way humans react to catastrophe, and saying "LOL EVERYONE WILL JUST TRY 2 GET KILLSTREAKS LUL" is fucking ludicrous and ruins the atmosphere of the game.

[/quote']

Are you...

Are you fucking serious? How fucking stupid are you?

Ignoring everyone who is telling you that you have literally no knowledge of the sort of catastrophic situation we're talking about, let's head right to the meat of this issue:

Humanity was forged out of groups of people fighting and KILLING other groups for whatever reason they wanted. That is pure group psychology, and it's known as in-group and out-group. Your stupid fucking opinion demonstrates clearly that you have no knowledge of actual human behaviour and whilst your optimism is commendable, the fact that you are trying to push it as fact relegates you to the box marked "Fucking stupid, dispose of in nearest eugenics bin."

You are wrong. Plain and simple. Get it through your skull.

As for the actual debate? This game is in Alpha. There will be more motivation for players when other features are introduced, but guess what? Some people enjoy this mod by killing other players. The fact that you're too much of a child to handle the death of your pixels maturely is not the problem. In fact, beyond the very few people on the forums complaining about it, there is no problem. This is a vocal minority, but it is just that: a minority.

This mod is going extremely well. If PvP were such a problem, we wouldn't be seeing dozens of new servers and hundreds to thousands of new players. So get the fuck over it.