Use of advanced network technology like Pikkotekk

[WockaWocka 2]

Hi all

I always dreamt about a FPS that could handle unlimited amount of players.

(and now I am not talking about calculated moves like in WoW, but REALLY bullets flying everywhere, and a lot of stuff made in REAL TIME)

So suddenly someone went out and did this. Exactly this.

A game network protocol that allows pretty much unlimited amounts of players in a FPS game.

Maybe you have heard about Pikkotekk?

Non-technically check this link:

http://www.rockpaper...000-player-fps/

For technical nerds, check this link:

http://www.muchdiffe...ekk-pikkoserver

Maybe this is more of a question for Ondrej to take a look at (it is he that remakes the network code at the moment) but I think all should give this a thought.

So primarly brakes down to one question: Can/should pikkotekk network technology be used in DayZ?

• Pros: Be able to gather thousands of players into Cherno for big "town meetings".
  
• Cons: Will make game more expensive.
  

This "off-the-shelf-network-technology" could be combined with other "network technology improvements" of course, but will not include those ideas here for ease of discussion.

Edited April 16, 2013 by WockaWocka

[Blondedash 403]

Hi all

I always dreamt about a FPS that could handle unlimited amount of players.

(and now I am not talking about calculated moves like in WoW, but REALLY bullets flying everywhere, and a lot of stuff made in REAL TIME)

planetside 2 did it you want that, look planetside 2 up on steam. 6k players per server. Edited April 16, 2013 by The ammo guy

[WockaWocka 2]

Yes, actually more than one game actually do this today.

I play Battleground Europe today, and actually that is also a FPS that can allow a lot of players in the same spot.

But Pikkotekk is different: It has no limit on how many players you can have in one spot, because the protocol allows you to just put more cells into that area. It is more like cell networks: They can be enforced dynamically if the provider just knows there will be a spike of callers (like in arenas or concerts)

Also this is not easy to do, so why reinvent the wheel, when the wheel can be bought of the shelf?

[Ohly 26]

just with your tittle i can tell you :: WWOOOOWW calm down, its a survivor

[leviski 2152]

As cool as this somewhat sounds

Do you really think anyone has the power to host something like this?

I dont even know if backbone gigabyte internet would handle that many players in a complex FPS/survival sim like the SA is going to be

[Blondedash 403]

there isn't enough internet in the world to do this, max players in an fps 6k.

[Ohly 26]

reaching the 6k player limit, in a map like chernarus, this would mean an average of 2.6 player per 100 square meter.... aqually placed in the map, and there would be people in the water !

and think about this, would you play a survivor game where there is more player than zeds ?

[Blondedash 403]

reaching the 6k player limit, in a map like chernarus, this would mean an average of 2.6 player per 100 square meter.... aqually placed in the map, and there would be people in the water !

and think about this, would you play a survivor game where there is more player than zeds ?

the map(s) in planetside 2 was 10kms. cpu heavy games either attack the cpu by huge maps or lots of players.

[WockaWocka 2]

To actually be able to host this -> yes

That is why they did a demonstration that 1000 people online at the same 400x400m is no problem.

Practically for this game?

Well, for me I see a lot of players in the cities already. And if this would be real world you would actually see a lot of survivors 10km close to big cities. So cities would probably be where it is "congested" and where people group up.

Of course I would like to have a bigger map, but maybe the question is: "..and is the current map big enough?"

Although what is the alternative? That we have 500 servers that each take 72 players?

That is to me boring. I do not want to search for where my friends are. I would like them to be in the same consistent world (if possible). With this technology there is also possible to let "cells" move around on a much bigger map (in theory). So you can (and this has been done) to use vast spaces where "cells meet". And in those conditions you would have much more zombies because each cell is capable to host thousands of zombies.

If not clear enough:

This technology has already been implemented in several games. Like "Battlestar Galactica MMO"... not a single problem with bandwidth overload, or any servers going to hot...

Battlestar Galactica MMO

[Ohly 26]

but if the cities are devided in many cells,

and me in a sniping area that would be one cell away from the citie's cells, will i be able to scope and see other player making ''things'' in the citie

because when you talk about it, it sound miraculous, but if all those cells are restrained to comunicate all stuff all around the place to all the other cells i think there might be a problem there,

yeah the cells achitecture sound great, because you would not need one super power server hardware, but an bag full of standard power server hardware connected to each other, so i would mean at a certain point, less energy consumption or less heat production, while requiering a bit more space to store your server...

also meaning that you could restart a server cell by cell so players would not notice their cell have been restarted...

anyway, being 6k on a little map is ....... strange, but the possibilities it shows is quite attractive

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

Yes, yes and yes!

I suggested something similar for just the zombies, splitting Chernarus into a multiple "cells" which could each run a bunch of zombies, lessening the load on the main server. But, this sounds even better.

[Mos1ey 6301]

They're talking about making the servers 150 slot, IMO that's about twice as many people as can fit comfortably in Chernarus. With 6k players you'd have well over a thousand players each in Cherno and Elektro, the game would be a mess, lol.

[WockaWocka 2]

Have not all the details in my head, but yes, a sniper in one cell would "see" stuff in other cells i theory. But actually the limit this technology gives is more on the client side.

Meaning: How many can the graphic engine render?

So if using scope you could limit what you see, and hence be able to "render" stuff that another cell has. This pikkotekk server then gives the option to "move" players between cells within 2-3 ms (normal position updates on objects in other cells are not delayed). So I guess the player/s targeted in a scope could be moved to your cell temporarly, and then put back without any strain on the backbone even. I first did not think this was possible until I saw a demonstrating movie showing 200+ objects changing cells several times per second, but still not showing any heavy "stutter" to an observer.

So ok.. when having this "limited" map size having to many players will ruin the "feel" of the game. But what if you could use this technology to make special Zombie-cells, that inject zombies into player-cells?

Because something I would like to see is Zombies being scary again. I mean so scary that even 250 people in Chernarus would not be enough unless you work together, because a horde of 1000 zombies are pushing into town. Not all the time. But maybe give that option of fun a Sunday evening when a group of bandits were just about to raid a couple of survivors in a town :)

[fluxley 2228]

As mZLY says, we are currently looking at 150 players max for Chernarus which i'd say is more than enough.

The technology is certainly interesting though, love the idea of a world 10 times the size of the current map with 1000 players all going about there business, But seeing as Chernarus itself took about 2 years to create we're a long way off that happening.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Fluxley58

[fluxley 2228]

So ok.. when having this "limited" map size having to many players will ruin the "feel" of the game. But what if you could use this technology to make special Zombie-cells, that inject zombies into player-cells?

Because something I would like to see is Zombies being scary again. I mean so scary that even 250 people in Chernarus would not be enough unless you work together, because a horde of 1000 zombies are pushing into town. Not all the time. But maybe give that option of fun a Sunday evening when a group of bandits were just about to raid a couple of survivors in a town :)

This i didn't consider, but they have already said that there should be up to 3000 zombies, which should be enough so long as the zombies are badass enough.

I guess its a case of would spending the extra money on the technology be worth it,

[bad_mojo (DayZ) 1204]

We shouldn't concentrate too much on the existing map and player limits. If 150 players is the decided sweet spot for Chernarus, there is no reason this technology couldn't be used with a limit of 150. Then when new maps are created that limit can increase, or maybe the extra resources can go towards more zombies.

Just because everything has been developed with the current limits in mind, doesn't mean those limits are good to have.

[-Gews- 7443]

Although what is the alternative? That we have 500 servers that each take 72 players? That is to me boring. I do not want to search for where my friends are.

Even 72 sounds like a lot to me... 150 sounds like a meat grinder.

Then when new maps are created that limit can increase, or maybe the extra resources can go towards more zombies.

More zombies would be a better idea than players. Maybe it could be used for truly large hordes. I don't know enough about how this works, though.

[Lady Kyrah 1110]

There is always a "limit", in this case, one of them is the customer's bandwidth, the other is the processing power server side, because all these entities, if they are AIs have to be processed at some point.

There is no "revolutionary technologies" out there that will change everything, there are technologies that do things in a more or less efficient way, but none of them is a silver bullet.

Please let the devs do what they do best.

[Mos1ey 6301]

Even 72 sounds like a lot to me... 150 sounds like a meat grinder.

More zombies would be a better idea than players. Maybe it could be used for truly large hordes. I don't know enough about how this works, though.

To be fair Chernarus+ will hold a lot more players than Chernarus did. It has so many new areas and things added to other areas that will draw players to places on the map that used to be deserted. 150 does sound a bit ambitous though, I hope there are some servers with a lower capacity.

[Sutinen 635]

Chernarus+ can hold a lot of players in the urban areas, many players can be in the project buildings without knowing about each other.