Balancing DayZ SA series Part 1: traversing the dayz world

[alanford 13]

Part 2 of the Balancing DayZ standalone discussion series. I encourage to post your opinions and ideas here. The more posts the more chances any of the devs hear us.

In part 2 of the series we will talk about traversing the DayZ world. I am basing the OP around the data we know about dayZ standalone. Which includes a bigger map and bigger cities. I'll point out some of things I though off and add other good ideas provided by people in this topic. Many of the changes are small balance changes which could also be included in dayz mod. But some are big changes, which would require actualy developing time.

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Orientation, navigating

-The first thing and one of the most important things to fix would be the map markers. (the ones which point the way in game world and tell you the range to target) They really brake immersion, because currently you just set a marker and run.

But if the map markers were to be removed, than running in a straight line would no longer be possible. (Well it still would, but much harder)

Sticking to the roads would be much more viable. And roads are dangerous. With the new zombie handling roads would be a profit vs. danger decision. Should you follow roads and risk being seen by zombies and players, or go through woods and risk getting lost? The feeling of being lost in a dark forest in a dead world with zombies around and running low on water and food is really a thing that would fit DayZ perfectly. Incidentaly this also fits in with the swing from PVP to survival that is a constant idea in these series. Because suddently seeing a player wouldn't cause fear and hiding, but be a welcome sight.

-Compass and GPS would suddently become important, while right now they are little more than props. But because of these changes finding maps would be important, thus maps should be made more abundant.

-A question here is also if the map menu can be made to show different maps? Because if it can, than a really immersive thing would be different types of map. Finding a military 1:10000 map would be rare and much more useful than a turist broushure map. Incidentaly that falls together perfectly with the more difficult terain navigating.

-People who invest time to learn skills like navigating using the watch, or the clouds (currently) would have benefits.

And with the new bigger map all of these problems and things that I have written so far would be even more saturated.

-All that has been written so far would work towards the feeling of a dead and hostile world, and would change the mentality of players, and even if only ever so slightly. Still it does make a difference, and server to move the mentality from pvp to survival.

Ground vehicles

Another thing to cover are the vehicles. I dont think many can be pleased with the current system, because it supports hoarding and completely brakes immersion.

-Why would there be no cars in a big city? I dont think that is very realistic. But I also dont think there should be more vehicles so here are my suggestions:

-Completely remove the civilian vehicle spawn and make repairing dynamic. So for example when you see a car in a city that isn't completely destroyed, you can start repairing it.

--There definitely shouldn't be the predetermined spawn that are currently implemented, because than people just hog all the cars and hoard the somewhere up north, leaving the south coast bare. Not very immersive.

New repair system

-But like I said I dont think there should be many more cars, so I suggest that the repairing system be redone. Finding proper spare parts should be harder but less random: instead of looking in random industrial buildings the player should be looking into similar cars and getting spare parts from there. So for example if a player wants to repair a hatchback he should look around for other hatchbacks and loot them for engine, wheels, body parts, etc. That way cars spawn wouldn't be rare but fixed ones would be, fixing them would be MUCH more immersive.

-I also suggest cars start to break down after a predetermined amount of time. Consider it like parts wear. A player repaired the vehicle poorly with no mechanical shops and its normal that they break down. So lets say leaving a car without maintenance for a week would cause it to stop working. That would prevent the hoarding of cars. There's nothing worse than a car just sitting in the northern woods doing nothing. I hate it.

This also works very well with the new loot spawn logic being implemented in dayzstandalone (think loot in trunks of cars, easy to add an engine in front).

-Also, depending on what year it is, fuel might be harder to find?

Flight

Here's a big fact: HELECOPTERS ARE OVERPOWERED

Thats a fact. Period. You can get anywhere instantly, you can scout for camps get geared in the blink of an eye. And to top it all they have VTOL capabilities.

-Now what I suggest are a couple of things, but basically this: make flight much much much more risky. Taking to the skies in dayz should be a really good one of a kind feeling. Right now it's meh. I have had 3 helis in the past week. Thats not one of a kind at all.

-So firstly making helicopters much more rare, and MUCH more difficult to repair. That would fall together perfectly with the new repairing mechanics I have covered in the previous paragraph. Basically to repair one heli you'd have to scavange several.

-How to make flight more risky though? Here's one thing: I suggest switching the focus from helicopters to fixed wing aircraft. Now why would we do that you ask? Simple: airplanes require more skill and practice to fly. You can always just sit in a heli, press autohover and take off. Not in a plane. Airplanes have to keep moving in order to fly, and landing one is difficult. (well not really, it's still easy mode in arma, but still infinitely harder than heli landing) Airplanes can not land vertically, so looting heli crash sites and tents is still doable, but harder. Having a pilot in your team is now actually valuable.

-So planes are very risky, because you can crash easely and you need someone to go check the heli crash sites while the other person is landing etc. etc. You'd have to think twice before getting into one with a whole crew.

-And in real life, civilian planes are infact way more common. And that is also why repairing a plane would be easier, according to the new repair mechanic I described earlier.

Chain reaction car crashes on big roads.

What happens when zombies come? Panic. Fleeing. refugees. Car crashes. Big car crashes. Epicly big car crashes. Add chain reaction car crashes on roads, and make them goldmines of loot. Refugees take with them all kinds of stuff. Flashlights, backpacks, food, lots of food. Drinks, canisters, axes, knifes, lighters. Everything needed to survive.

We'll talk more about this in the loot part of the series, but since they relate I've made notice of them here. They aid the shift from looting cities to actually finding loot and surviving on the land. Now you can get basic survival gear elsewhere.

Zombie hordes

We will talk more about this in the zombies part of the series, but let me just make a note of them here, since they relate:

Zombie hordes should roam the roads making traversing the dayz world more risky, again aiding the shift from dangerous cities to dangerous world. And maybe hower around cchain car crashes.

Here's a big one as well:

ADD REAL NIGHTS! Right now people who want to play at night can't, because other player will just set brightness and gamma all the way up and roflstomp them. It's basically HAxz!

If you dont like nights go play on a 24/7 day server. Please devs, remove brightness and gamma hack from the game.

----

Part 1 of the series:

shifting from PVP to survival.

Part 2 of the series:

-you are here-

Part 3 of the series:

loot mechanics

Part 4 of the series:

balancing the zombies

Part 5 of the series:

endgame

Part 6 of the series:

random stuff

Edited March 22, 2013 by izver

[dayz247 59]

-The first thing and one of the most important things to fix would be the map markers. They really brake immersion, because currently you just set a marker and run.

But if the map markers were to be removed, than running in a straight line would no longer be possible. (Well it still would, but much harder)

Um.... what?

Are you talking about the blue markers that only appear on easy server (or recruit or whatever the setting is called, been awhile sorry).

Or are you talking about the ones that look like you drew an X on the map? I don't see how drawing an x on the map enables you to run straight to it?

You also titled this part 1 .... its part 2 =)

Edited March 22, 2013 by dayz247

[alanford 13]

Um.... what?

Are you talking about the blue markers that only appear on easy server (or recruit or whatever the setting is called, been awhile sorry).

Or are you talking about the ones that look like you drew an X on the map? I don't see how drawing an x on the map enables you to run straight to it?

You also titled this part 1 .... its part 2 =)

Thanks for pointing that out, I've clarified it. :) Yes I ment the ones which point the way in game. I know they only show in regular servers, but I still feel like they make the game too easy. And most server's i've visited use them. I might be wrong of course.

And yeah, I messed up with the title But I cannot edit it anymore :(

[dayz247 59]

Thanks for pointing that out, I've clarified it. :) Yes I ment the ones which point the way in game. I know they only show in regular servers, but I still feel like they make the game too easy. And most server's i've visited use them. I might be wrong of course.

And yeah, I messed up with the title But I cannot edit it anymore :(

Haven't seen those blue dots in so long I forgot the difficulty they show up on. And yes, I agree, they are shit.

[thesodesa 99]

One interesting thing about the human body is that in most people there is a significant difference in leg length between the right and left leg. This fact alone, even if you don't take the slight coordination errors produced by the brain into account, leads most people to walk with a slight curvature if they don't have a clear reference point in the distance.

Therefore I propose the following: Introduce this type of curvature to the game. At character creation you character's stride will be given a slight curvature (barely noticeable) to either left or right at random. This would be a good, authentic way of complicating navigation over long distances.

Edited March 22, 2013 by TheSodesa

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

Wandering off-course isn't due to the length of your legs.

There was an experiment conducted by a man called Jan Souman, from the Max Planck institute of biological cybernetics, where people were blindfolded and told to walk in a straght line.

They discovered that the same people didn't veer-off in the same direction each time.

I forget what conclusions were reached, but it pretty much proved that the length of your legs isn't what makes you wander in circles.

If there's any course misalignment included, I think it should be random to some extent.

If you just assume you're going in a straight line it should get you lost in the wilderness.

EDIT: My spelling is crap today.

I can't post links in the browser I'm using, but I'm sure you could find an article about that experiment with google.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Chabowski

[thesodesa 99]

Wandering off-course isn't due to the length of your legs.

There was an experiment conducted by a man called Jan Souman, from the Max Planck institute of biological cybernetics, where people were blindfolded and told to walk in a straght line.

They discovered that the same people didn't veer-off in the same direction each time.

I forget what conclusions were reached, but it pretty much proved that the length of your legs isn't what makes you wander in circles.

If there's any course misalignment included, I think it should be random to some extent.

If you just assume you're going in a straight line it should get you lost in the wilderness.

EDIT: My spelling is crap today.

I can't post links in the browser I'm using, but I'm sure you could find an article about that experiment with google.

Fair enough, glad to be proven wrong :). Then it's most likely due to the people just taking steps of different lengths for the same reasons why keeping a juggling pattern completely symmetric is pretty much impossible. The brain is just not very good at fine motor coordination and the replication of exact movements.

In any case this is something I hadn't thought of before, and I think it would be one of those things that would make the game harder for all the right reasons.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

Too right.

The less predictable everything is, the greater the challenge we get out of it.

Lots of little things add up to one awesome experience. Even if the little things are unnoticable by themselves.

Didn't mean to sound like a smart arse by the way. A tv show I was watching a while ago mentioned if you don't have a point of reference you can accidentally walk in a full cirlce within a few hundred yards.

I thought "That sounds a bit fishy", so I looked it up. :lol:

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

"..the most important things to fix would be the map markers. (the ones which point the way in game world and tell you the range to target)"

I'm pretty sure Rocket knows of this and they will be removed entirely.

"But if the map markers were to be removed, than running in a straight line would no longer be possible. (Well it still would, but much harder)"

Just, you know, hold W and nothing else? If you have any sense of orientation in real life, or can read a map, it isn't hard to align yourself even without a compass. It's harder to do in real life, because you have to either dodge some things or you naturally turn ever-so-slightly, and might run past your goal.

"Why would there be no cars in a big city? I dont think that is very realistic."

Because people were at a hurry to get out of the city and/or they got raided before us, the players, got into the game/server?

Otherwise I like your ideas for land vehicles.

"So lets say leaving a car without maintenance for a week would cause it to stop working. That would prevent the hoarding of cars. There's nothing worse than a car just sitting in the northern woods doing nothing. I hate it."

And that affects hoarders.. how, exactly? The point of hoarding cars was that they worked as storage space, that could sometimes be moved around, even if they needed a little repair. (Some people shoot one of the wheels out.) At least now, if you find a camp with a car, you can just take it yourself and stop it from being used as a hoarding device. Your suggestion would make it more or less a permanent part of storage space for a camp unless repaired. And before you suggest that you can't access the items in the broken car, then that's just nonsense. Did everything somehow lock itself? No.

"Now why would we do that you ask? Simple: airplanes require more skill and practice to fly. You can always just sit in a heli, press autohover and take off."

You've clearly missed the part where Rocket said that the helicopter mechanics will be taken from Take on Helicopters. Most people will not even be able to warm the engine on the helicopters before they jump out from frustration.

I'd write/read more, but my shift is ending.

Edit; Meh, screw it.

"ADD REAL NIGHTS! Right now people who want to play at night can't, because other player will just set brightness and gamma all the way up and roflstomp them. It's basically HAxz!

If you dont like nights go play on a 24/7 day server. Please devs, remove brightness and gamma hack from the game."

It has been removed. It's not the mod's fault if it has been re-enabled by private hives or unofficial variations of the DayZ mod. The nights are as real as it gets in Chernarus, in the current vanilla DayZ mod.

Edited March 22, 2013 by Dancing.Russian.Man

[thesodesa 99]

Too right.

The less predictable everything is, the greater the challenge we get out of it.

Lots of little things add up to one awesome experience. Even if the little things are unnoticable by themselves.

Didn't mean to sound like a smart arse by the way. A tv show I was watching a while ago mentioned if you don't have a point of reference you can accidentally walk in a full cirlce within a few hundred yards.

I thought "That sounds a bit fishy", so I looked it up. :lol:

My primary school teacher actually performed that particular experiment at her university in Finland with her friends at the time, and I initially found out about the experiment when she told us about it in class years and years ago. I'm not saying she was the first to perform it, just that she had heard about it and wanted to test it for herself. I forgot what conclusions they drew out of the results, which is why I made the erraneous assumption, that it was the leg size that affected the curvature.

Then again if one's right leg is longer than their left, they are out of physical necessity more likely to steer in one direction, rather than the other (left in this case). At least this seems to be the case hypothetically.

Edited March 22, 2013 by TheSodesa

[alanford 13]

"But if the map markers were to be removed, than running in a straight line would no longer be possible. (Well it still would, but much harder)"

Just, you know, hold W and nothing else? If you have any sense of orientation in real life, or can read a map, it isn't hard to align yourself even without a compass. It's harder to do in real life, because you have to either dodge some things or you naturally turn ever-so-slightly, and might run past your goal.

Yeah, you could just do that but if you were to run for a town thats 3km away you'd be bound to miss it by 500m, give or take, and would end up having to orient yourself using either triangulation or roads. Which is better than now.

"Why would there be no cars in a big city? I dont think that is very realistic."

Because people were at a hurry to get out of the city and/or they got raided before us, the players, got into the game/server?

Otherwise I like your ideas for land vehicles.

Thats a fair point. But still some wrecks would be there, and than you could loot 10 broken cars to make a working one.

"So lets say leaving a car without maintenance for a week would cause it to stop working. That would prevent the hoarding of cars. There's nothing worse than a car just sitting in the northern woods doing nothing. I hate it."

And that affects hoarders.. how, exactly? The point of hoarding cars was that they worked as storage space, that could sometimes be moved around, even if they needed a little repair. (Some people shoot one of the wheels out.) At least now, if you find a camp with a car, you can just take it yourself and stop it from being used as a hoarding device. Your suggestion would make it more or less a permanent part of storage space for a camp unless repaired. And before you suggest that you can't access the items in the broken car, then that's just nonsense. Did everything somehow lock itself? No.

Fair point. I haven't considered cars being used solely for storage. And why would I suggest them getting locked? But still something has to be done to address the hoarding problems. We need to find a solution and if you have a better idea, please share it with us. :)

"Now why would we do that you ask? Simple: airplanes require more skill and practice to fly. You can always just sit in a heli, press autohover and take off."

You've clearly missed the part where Rocket said that the helicopter mechanics will be taken from Take on Helicopters. Most people will not even be able to warm the engine on the helicopters before they jump out from frustration.

Holy shit thats excelent news!!! I never heard of this. If this will truly be implemented that will be awesome!

"ADD REAL NIGHTS! Right now people who want to play at night can't, because other player will just set brightness and gamma all the way up and roflstomp them. It's basically HAxz!

If you dont like nights go play on a 24/7 day server. Please devs, remove brightness and gamma hack from the game."

It has been removed. It's not the mod's fault if it has been re-enabled by private hives or unofficial variations of the DayZ mod. The nights are as real as it gets in Chernarus, in the current vanilla DayZ mod.

Yeah, but like I said this has to be addressed.

Cheers.

[OTehNoes 21]

Vehicle wear would be a little tedious. Surely if you an repair a broken engine to the point of functioning again (not an easy task) then surely you'd have done a good enough job that it lasts? If they were to wear it should be over a very long period of time.

Perhaps if you used that system they should wear on a scale that from everything being fully repaired, it'll need fixing again within 5,000 in game miles. This sounds like a lot, and it is, but cars do get used a lot once they are working and they're going to be bumped into things, other people stealing them etc so that would come along a bit sooner than you'd think anyway.

Edited March 22, 2013 by OTehNoes

[sol 9]

Basically, everything Dancing Russian Man said. I never even knew about waypoints until a few weeks ago, and I had been navigating for months using just a map, compass, etc. I'm sure the waypoints will be taken out with the standalone (if anyone wants to know, just shift click on the map to set a waypoint). Using the Take On Helicopters engine should make helicopters nice and complicated for people ( i wonder if you'll have to start cars and stuff manually, too)

[OTehNoes 21]

Basically, everything Dancing Russian Man said. I never even knew about waypoints until a few weeks ago, and I had been navigating for months using just a map, compass, etc. I'm sure the waypoints will be taken out with the standalone (if anyone wants to know, just shift click on the map to set a waypoint). Using the Take On Helicopters engine should make helicopters nice and complicated for people ( i wonder if you'll have to start cars and stuff manually, too)

I hope so. Cars aren't particularly hard to operate, but helicopters are, and in the zombie apocalypse not many people should be able to just jump into a helicopter and go, so that should make things more interesting. Could be tense starting up a chopper in a rush though!

[sol 9]

I hope so. Cars aren't particularly hard to operate, but helicopters are, and in the zombie apocalypse not many people should be able to just jump into a helicopter and go, so that should make things more interesting. Could be tense starting up a chopper in a rush though!

I can see it now.

"Cover me while I bring the RPMs up enough for us to take off and not cause wear to the moving parts!"

[alanford 13]

I can see it now.

"Cover me while I bring the RPMs up enough for us to take off and not cause wear to the moving parts!"

More like:

The startup takes 1 minute! You need to cover me!

There is a zombie horde around us, you got 30seconds!

And than starting up the heli while your mates are dying. And you fuck up at startup cus u nervous. Now thats interesting.

[OTehNoes 21]

Will certainly add tension!