SA Hive wipes - Extenuating circumstances (duping)

[Xianyu 820]

This is for the standalone, basically.

It's not released yet, so we haven't seen the EULA. But I feel strongly that there should be a clause for 'server wipes' in 'extenuating circumstances'. That is to say, with new content being added to the standalone AFTER the 'foundation release', the propensity for a bug appearing that allows duping is VERY likely.

Thing is, there's a lot of code to go over. And I think the MOD has shown that wipes need to be made periodically after certain events.

with the way the mod was set up, I think that wipes just won't work on the hive, because of the way tents are saved server-side. Dupers would still have all their shit and the people who suffer would be the legitimate players.

The issue with duping is that it's a 'trickle down' effect.

These people dupe hundreds of NVG's, sniper rifles, ghillie suits, etc. These are then spread around by the dupers dying, passing out their ill-gotten gains, or someone coming across their tents.

Whereas NVG's should be rare. One in a hundred players should have them. Now it's 1 in ten on the hive.

Back in its hey-day, the public hive was shite. Absolute shite. Every second person I saw had a ghillie suit and NVGs. People would be killed, run up the coast to a duped tent and get fully geared in ten minutes before running back to cherno to deathmatch.

When this kind of thing happens, a server wipe is the only thing that will help. Or perhaps even a rollback, but rollbacks would require frequent backups and that is pretty costly, and could cause discrepancies between the player characters and the server items.

Basically, in summary, I think that we should have server wipes every single time a duping bug is fixed. Sure, it's a pain in the ass to lose all your shit, but this is an alpha. Really, there should have been wipes all the time. And even in a beta standalone, wipes are not uncommon. Especially with rampant duping that completely unbalances the game.

There needs to be quality control: The mod hive proved that.

I'm willing to bet that the public hive is STILL broken by the sheer amount of duped loot. Even though there's only like, ten servers left that use it.

[trichome (DayZ) 198]

The SA will support private hives so they can deal with duping as they do now and wipe their db's as and when they want. If your still on public hives then there's not much you can do but put up with it.

Your solution would only piss off those who have not duped. Why should I have all my gear wiped because some kid decided to exploit a bug in the game that should not be there in the first place. A better solution is for the dev team to fix the duping issue and not wipe innocent peoples accounts.

[Mos1ey 6301]

The SA will support private hives so they can deal with duping as they do now and wipe their db's as and when they want. If your still on public hives then there's not much you can do but put up with it.

Your solution would only piss off those who have not duped. Why should I have all my gear wiped because some kid decided to exploit a bug in the game that should not be there in the first place. A better solution is for the dev team to fix the duping issue and not wipe innocent peoples accounts.

No, it won't. It will just be the main hive the begin with.

Bugs and glitches are innevitable when you add new features to a game, saying the dev team should just fix them all is ignorant, lol.

Edited March 13, 2013 by mZLY

[o-richardson@live.co.uk 34]

Wouldnt really need to implement anything into the EULA.

These days you dont pay for a game, You pay for acess to it.

The company's and game owners can do whatever they want within the game as long as you can "play" it however they decide.

Im fairly sure it shouldnt be the community asking things like this, as everything will be moved server side "mmo" style, Items are less likely to be duped-able, and will be very easy to see.

I do wish people who havent even seen the standalone yet keep pestering the forums asking for feature after feature after problem after issue.

Unless its critical to the development of the game and bringing it out, shut the fuck up untill you have tested the game.

[trichome (DayZ) 198]

No, it won't. It will just be the main hive the begin with.

Bugs and glitches are innevitable when you add new features to a game, saying the dev team should just fix them all is ignorant, lol.

Yes it will. Not straight away but it will eventually as Rocket has stated and numberous mods around here.

Jesus Christ where did I say they should fix all the bugs?? Are you 12 or something?

STOP PUTTING WORDS THAT i DID NOT SAY IN MY MOUTH!

Edited March 13, 2013 by trichome

[Dancing.Russian.Man 1631]

No, it won't. It will just be the main hive the begin with.

My face had never looked as worried when I first read his post.

Thank you for the quick relief. :I

[Mos1ey 6301]

Yes it will. Not straight away but it will eventually as Rocket has stated and numberous mods around here.

Yes, eventually. To begin with it will just be the main hive though, as I said.

[o-richardson@live.co.uk 34]

PS. While were on yet another subject asking for unnessecary requests (which are fairly obvious)

ROCKET PLEASE CAN YOU IMPLEMENT A TRANSFORMER INTO THE GAME...

Would be so cool if you could jump into a transformer and go PEW PEW around cherno

[Xianyu 820]

PS. While were on yet another subject asking for unnessecary requests (which are fairly obvious)

ROCKET PLEASE CAN YOU IMPLEMENT A TRANSFORMER INTO THE GAME...

Would be so cool if you could jump into a transformer and go PEW PEW around cherno

Unnecessary?

I'm sorry, I thought we were playing a mod where there was rampant duping and no hive wipes in living memory, thereby ruining the entire fucking point of the game: finding loot.

My mistake.

[o-richardson@live.co.uk 34]

Unnecessary?

I'm sorry, I thought we were playing a mod where there was rampant duping and no hive wipes in living memory, thereby ruining the entire fucking point of the game: finding loot.

My mistake.

My mistake, Your speaking of a mod for arma 2

Not a standalone game being developed. GO FIGURE

Dont think you see the point. Shut-up and wait for the game to be released, test it, then give feedback.

You have not seen the product in any way or form thats being developed, your ASUMING its going to be the same as dayz. (A mod)

[Xianyu 820]

My mistake, Your speaking of a mod for arma 2

Not a standalone game being developed. GO FIGURE

Dont think you see the point. Shut-up and wait for the game to be released, test it, then give feedback.

You have not seen the product in any way or form thats being developed, your ASUMING its going to be the same as dayz. (A mod)

Fancy that, assuming that something made by one person, will be the same as something else made by the same person. Huh.

Am I not to assume that there'll be zombies in the standalone? Am I not to assume that there will be shotguns, sniper rifles, tents, and vehicles? The standalone will be built on the same ENGINE as the mod. No matter what remodeling is done under the hood, the propensity for duping is STILL THERE and the damage duping can do is EXACTLY THE SAME. Not to mention that there won't be any private hives at the start! \o/ So if duping DOES become a problem, you can't escape it by swapping servers!

NVG's and sniper rifles for EVERYONE! :D

[o-richardson@live.co.uk 34]

You really are a spastic young sir.

Why not worry about these issues when they come, they wont be fixed untill people find out how to do it will they.

Hence the point of testing.

[o-richardson@live.co.uk 34]

and btw, EVERYGAME has Issues at the start. Its part of having new games.

The whole point of NO private hives in the start (read the blogs) is so they can monitor things.

LIKE DUPING.

Use your common sense, and look at things from the point of view of not just your self, or the consumer.

But the dev's and programmers.

I would rather have the game released, test it and provide positive feed back on such things, rather than wait 2 years for it all to be "fixed" then find out, its still filled with bugs.

Make sense yet Banjo?

[willey.erd@oundleschool.org.uk 506]

Fancy that, assuming that something made by one person, will be the same as something else made by the same person. Huh.

Am I not to assume that there'll be zombies in the standalone? Am I not to assume that there will be shotguns, sniper rifles, tents, and vehicles? The standalone will be built on the same ENGINE as the mod. No matter what remodeling is done under the hood, the propensity for duping is STILL THERE and the damage duping can do is EXACTLY THE SAME. Not to mention that there won't be any private hives at the start! \o/ So if duping DOES become a problem, you can't escape it by swapping servers!

NVG's and sniper rifles for EVERYONE! :D

A couple key facts you've got oh so wrong there:

• Not the same ENGINE.
  
• Rocket is now not bounded by the limitations of the ArmA 2 engine - you seem to be implying that duping was Rocket's fault (or that he implemented it on purpose).
  
• The propensity for duping will be much reduced thanks to the new client/server architecture - right now, a lot of DayZ is actually done off your client, but in the SA it will become much more centralised and serversided.
  

Do you even read/watch the devblogs? Please, consider what you're saying before you make such an assumptious and frankly plain erroneous post.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Ingasmeeg

[o-richardson@live.co.uk 34]

A couple key facts you've got oh so wrong there:

• Not the same ENGINE.
  
• Rocket is now not bounded by the limitations of the ArmA 2 engine - you seem to be implying that duping was Rocket's fault (or that he implemented it on purpose).
  
• The propensity for duping will be much reduced thanks to the new client/server architecture - right now, a lot of DayZ is actually done off your client, but in the SA it will become much more centralised and serversided.
  

Do you even read/watch the devblogs? Please, consider what you're saying before you make such an assumptious and frankly plain erroneous post.

I love this guy, Hes just sat you down in many ways i didint even bother, glad someone noticed that this guy has absolutely no clue about the developement of SA.

And qouted above is exactly what i meant by MMO like archetecture being implemented.

Just like trying to dupe an item on wow.

All items will be stored server side, Client side interaction is being limited to hell. Virtually nothing is going to be performed client-side.

Thanks for trying to sound right and making a massive issue about duping (which everyone is aware of)

Btw, for your information since you dont know, Duping was fixed by a server side file a while back, not all servers are running it though.

So technically its fixed. Just not on all server.

But yeah, I still think transformers are a good idea. HUEY-URAL transformation sounds good.

Edited March 13, 2013 by ICU

[o-richardson@live.co.uk 34]

Fancy that, assuming that something made by one person, will be the same as something else made by the same person. Huh.

Xianyu,

Just for you, a qoute from rocket himself.

The only way that hacking issues can even begin to be dealt with, is with a major architectural change. How many times do I have to say this before people realize this? Hacking is very bad in the mod, we're just lucky that private servers have been able to pick up some of the slack. In the early days, it was the wild west out there.

And quite frankly, if I'm going to be expecting people to pay for something then I think they should be getting something new. This the one chance I have where I can do something different, I can steer the direction where I want. So I'm going to use that experiement and try some ideas and concepts that I never would have had the chance to on a more traditional project.

Edited March 13, 2013 by ICU

[Xianyu 820]

You know, I had an entire post prepared. But fuck it. I'm not arguing with blithering idiots. Enjoy your unfounded sense of confidence. I hope a duping glitch is found, just so I can see you guys go 'but... this can't happen! IT CAN'T HAPPEN EVER.' Because apparently, putting in safeguards means something will NEVER, EVER, EVER happen. According to these guys.

And ICU? There's an edit button. Learn to use the fucking thing. And probably learn how to argue on topic and not take things out of context. Hacking =/= duping. Duping can be done with simple glitches, as games have shown us since their first inception. You think tent duping was a hack? A simple oversight can lead to a whole host of problems.

[willey.erd@oundleschool.org.uk 506]

You know, I had an entire post prepared. But fuck it. I'm not arguing with blithering idiots. Enjoy your unfounded sense of confidence. I hope a duping glitch is found, just so I can see you guys go 'but... this can't happen! IT CAN'T HAPPEN EVER.' Because apparently, putting in safeguards means something will NEVER, EVER, EVER happen. According to these guys.

And ICU? There's an edit button. Learn to use the fucking thing. And probably learn how to argue on topic and not take things out of context. Hacking =/= duping. Duping can be done with simple glitches, as games have shown us since their first inception. You think tent duping was a hack? A simple oversight can lead to a whole host of problems.

Please, hit me with it.

If all you're going to do is label me as a 'blithering idiot' because I provide solid evidence against your main points (which are based entirely on speculation) then I want to see your be-all and end-all argument that I'm supposedly not good enough for. Not only does your last post look childish, it makes me and others realise that there's no reason to argue with you because you're just going to throw your toys out of the pram when someone disagrees.

Also, I'd really like for you to inform me of where exactly I said:

1. Putting in safeguards will mean something will NEVER, EVER, EVER happen.
   
2. I have an unfounded sense of confidence in the Standalone.
   

If I'm honest, your use of blithering really grinds my gears. Granted, I may be an idiot (although evidence suggests otherwise) but if you read my post again you'll see that it was nicely structured in bullet point form so that you can get my key ideas straight off the bat.

The only reason many of the duping glitches work currently is because of the flawed client/hive relationship - mostly due to things like lag between your client and the server in updating what your character has on you and what the world has in it. An example of this is the old duping glitch that involved dropping something into a tent and then leaving the game before the hive could update your character's inventory. On return, your character would have the item and so would the tent. This problem was fixed but in such an architecture as the SA is going to have, the server would be the umpire in that before anything can be done the server must allow it - this means that the server would be a part of moving the item rather than just the client. The crux of the matter is that this would solve the majority of the current issues with duping.

Finally, I think this whole post is redundant. Going back to your OP, which by the way I would agree with if it was in regard to the mod, you are assuming from the start that the Standalone is going to inherit the same problems as the mod. Now, judging from that, you either don't follow DayZ SA development in the slightest or you have failed to understand exactly what the architectural changes mean.

But hey, what do I know. I'm just some blithering idiot with an unbridled sense of optimism about DayZ SA, and I will most likely break down in floods of tears if I encounter any bugs when the precious game is released. Or that's what you seem to think.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Ingasmeeg

[Xianyu 820]

Finally, I think this whole post is redundant. Going back to your OP, which by the way I would agree with if it was in regard to the mod, you are assuming from the start that the Standalone is going to inherit the same problems as the mod. Now, judging from that, you either don't follow DayZ SA development in the slightest or you have failed to understand exactly what the architectural changes mean.

If you read the OP, you'll see at no point does it say that 'duping will happen'. Not once. It sorta points out that it's pretty likely, given that it's a video game, in production.

The entire point of the OP is to say 'hey, if there should happen to be duping, then we should get a hive reset.'

The points in your post mean absolutely nothing.

It's a different engine (even though it's really not). Rocket was given the ARMA 2 engine to fuck with, from what I can surmise. It's like giving someone the cryengine. Or the Unreal engine. You can do a lot of different things with them, but the fundamentals are still the same.

Rocket isn't bound by the limitations of the engine. Oh sure. Let me rebuke that point though below.

The propensity for duping will be lowered.

Okay, so. All three of your well thought out points, well argued, concise arguments, mean absolutely sweet f- all. Why? Because they say 'hey, the likelihood of duping is lower!'

And?

What?

Unless you can point me to a post from Rocket where he states concisely that duping will not be possible in any way, then my point still stands. If. IF duping occurs, then the hive should be reset or rolled back to prevent the 'ripple effect' from negatively changing the game for anyone who comes into contact with these duped weapons.

Duping can happen with malicious code, bugs, glitches, and oversights. I've seen servers where the only loot was crowbars. A HIVE server. What if that was all NVGs instead? Or sniper rifles?

Simply put, your arguments were pointless. It's like me saying 'hey, we should have access to body armor!' and you saying 'but there are less chances of people shooting towards you'. Or 'I want a spade for digging up sand' and you say 'but the sand on the beach is all watery.' It's not an argument, because it simply ignores the point of the post completely.

Now if you said 'hey, duped gear doesn't negatively impact the game at all!' I'd happily argue with you until I'm blue in the face. But I tend not to write out massive posts when the person reading them has failed to grasp the basic concept of the original post.

As long as duping has the ability to exists then the ability to reset or roll back the hive should be there as a strong option. The main hive never got reset during the mod, and it ruined the hive servers.

When I was looking through the forums, I saw dozens of posts asking for a hive reset. To combat all the duped gear. That never happened. I don't want the standalone to degenerate into that if we get duping issues.

[Testwd3r235 2810]

I think some people need to calm down a bit before this gets locked but I think a server wipe is a good idea only on private hives for a few reasons like hackers, cheaters, glitches etc.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

It's a different engine (even though it's really not). Rocket was given the ARMA 2 engine to fuck with, from what I can surmise. It's like giving someone the cryengine. Or the Unreal engine. You can do a lot of different things with them, but the fundamentals are still the same.

In the context of this thread, the choice of engine is totally irrelevant.

And before you start; It was YOU who brought it up.

Just as an example.

Batman: Arkham Asylum/City,

Fable: The Journey,

Mortal Kombat 9,

Gears of War 3

All on the unreal3 engine, and the engine is about the ONLY thing they have in common. (some may share developers/publishers, but that's also irrelevant)

If you're really discussing dupe-bugs, you have to realise that client/server interaction is the culprit. And that is being reworked entirely, from the ground up for SA.

That's what Ingasmeeg has been trying to tell you, in case you hadn't noticed.

Trying to insult people who correct you only makes you look more foolish.

To me it looks like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing.

Quit it.

The entire point of the OP is to say 'hey, if there should happen to be duping, then we should get a hive reset.'

I have a radical idea.

If you have a point to make, do so.

Don't engage in flame wars or attack other members.

It doesn't reflect well on you.

Back to the matter at hand. I agree with you.

IF there should happen to be duping, then we SHOULD get a hive wipe.

See? That wasn't so hard now, was it?

[o-richardson@live.co.uk 34]

Your some self righteous prick. Read my post.

I clearly stated there would be bugs. Duping - bug.

I would rather have the product released for testing then fixed than wait fuxking ages have it released and find another way of doing so. Shut up Jesus, self confessed moron

[willey.erd@oundleschool.org.uk 506]

If you read tha OP, yo dirty ass is gonna peep at no point do it say dat 'dupin will happen'. Not once. It sorta points up dat itz pretty likely, given dat itz a vizzle game, up in thang.

Da entire point of tha OP is ta say 'hey, if there should happen ta be duping, then we should git a hive reset.'

Da points up in yo' post mean straight-up nothing.

It aint nuthin but a thugged-out different engine (even though itz straight-up not). Rocket was given tha ARMA 2 engine ta fuck with, from what tha fuck I can surmise. It aint nuthin but like givin one of mah thugs tha cryengine. Or tha Unreal engine. Yo ass can do a shitload of different thangs wit dem yo, but tha fundamentals is still tha same.

Rocket aint bound by tha limitationz of tha engine. Oh sure. Let me rebuke dat point though below.

Da propensitizzle fo' dupin is ghon be lowered.

Okay, so fo' realz. All three of yo' well thought up points, well broke off some disrespec, concise arguments, mean straight-up dope f- all. Why, biatch? Because they say 'hey, tha likelihood of dupin is lower!'

And?

What?

Unless you can point me ta a post from Rocket where da perved-out muthafucka states concisely dat dupin aint gonna be possible up in any way, then mah point still stands. If. IF dupin occurs, then tha hive should be reset or rolled back ta prevent tha 'ripple effect' from negatively changin tha game fo' mah playas whoz ass comes tha fuck into contact wit these duped weapons.

Dupin can happen wit malicious code, bugs, glitches, n' oversights. I've peeped servers where tha only loot was crowbars fo' realz. A HIVE server. Shiiit, dis aint no joke. What if dat was all NVGs instead, biatch? Or sniper rifles?

Simply put, yo' arguments was pointless. It aint nuthin but like me sayin 'hey, we should have access ta body armor!' n' you sayin 'but there is less chancez of playas shootin towardz you'. Or 'I want a spade fo' diggin up sand' n' you say 'but tha sand on tha beach be all watery know what I be sayin biatch, biatch? It aint nuthin but not a argument, cuz it simply ignores tha point of tha post straight-up.

Now if you holla'd 'hey, duped gear don't negatively impact tha game at all!' I'd happily argue wit you until I be blue up in tha face. But I tend not ta write up massive posts when tha thug readin dem has failed ta grasp tha basic concept of tha original gangsta post.

As long as dupin has tha mobilitizzle ta exists then tha mobilitizzle ta reset or roll back tha hive should be there as a phat option. I aint talkin' bout chicken n' gravy biatch. Da main hive never gots reset durin tha mod, n' it ruined tha hive servers.

When I was lookin all up in tha forums, I saw dozenz of posts askin fo' a hive reset. To combat all tha duped gear. Shiiit, dis aint no joke. That never happened. Y'all KNOW dat shit, muthafucka! I don't want tha standalone ta degenerate tha fuck into dat if we git dupin issues.

If you read my posts, nowhere does it say that 'Duping will never happen again': that's what you seem to be getting at with all your insults and 'arguments' - by the way, I don't know if anyone has ever told you this but a good argument never really stands by going straight ad hominem, and a tip I would give you for next time is to actually argue against my points with solid evidence and comprehension rather than saying in one sentence that all my points are moot, then going on to provide a load of examples that mean absolutely nothing in the context of what I was originally talking about.

As Chabowski mentioned, you seem to fail to understand the absolute fucking crux of what I was trying to tell you. I never, in fact, if you read my first post on this thread, started by disagreeing with what you said at all in your OP and would agree that IF a duping glitch was to be found that ruined the main hive, then yes, there should be a rollback or wipe. Your point stands, but in all honesty my point stands to reason that you still haven't understood how exactly the changes are going to affect a lot of what currently goes on - any duping glitches will be a lot more complicated than they currently are because the vast majority of player pathways to dupe items will be destroyed.

Stop twisting my words, I've tried to remain civil with you here as far as I can and every time you ignore the majority of my post then go on to press at your own agenda, which I never actually directly argued against. I was trying to correct you on many of the things you've got wrong. One of these things is the engine:

We have setup all the required pipelines to best push the project forward. The standalone engine we are using is a branch of Take on Helicopters, which itself is a branch of ArmA 2 Operation Arrowhead. We chose this because of its stability, ease of development, very achievable optimization, and the fact that our programmers are the architects of the engine - the very people who built it from the ground up over ten years.

So no, Rocket has not been given the 'ArmA 2' engine to fuck with. Yes, it's a branch of the Real Virtuality 3 engine in as much as the core architecture is the same, but the crucial difference between giving someone Cryengine and this is that these Cryengine users DO NOT KNOW THE ENGINE IN THE WAY THE PEOPLE WHO DESIGNED IT DO. It can still be called the 'DayZ Engine', because many of the fundamental parts of it have been revamped and remade, so much so that it is no longer identifiable with the ArmA 2 engine.

Another misconception you seem to have is that Rocket is doing this solo or something - again, do you even follow development? Rocket is now the project leader of a TEAM of highly-skilled Bohemia Interactive employees over in the Czech Republic, making the Standalone with help from the programmers, animators, artists and designers who have years of experience with the ArmA series and thus the engine - they know what they're doing, and how they are going to achieve it. A lot of your points seem to stem from this utterly pessimistic view that nothing will change between mod and standalone - in fact, I found this on the DayZ Reddit and thought you should probably have a read:

• DayZ Standalone is exactly that. a "Standalone". a NEW GAME. Not "Mod 1.5" or even "Mod 2.0"
  
• And as such, EVERYTHING is redone or changed or improved.
  Engine, AI, Pathfinding, Animations, 3D Models, textures, lighting, sound, physics, gameplay...
  
• Gameplay features that are useless will be removed, lots of new ones added, existing ones changed andimproved.
  Inventory system, crafting system, weapon modifications, disease and health system, loot and zed spawning, enterable buildings and new areas in Chernarus... just to name a few.
  
• The Standalone is based on Rockets ideas and concepts, not the private servers that create a "Chernarus deathmatch with zombies" kind of gameplay, with thousands of vehicles, guns, and complete equipment for new spawns.
  
• It's not a military simulation like ArmA. DayZ is not about extended firefights between highly trained and equipped elite soldiers.
  
• It'll be done, when it's done.
  

Granted, some of that is irrelevant but I think you'll find you need to have a look at the top two. I would prefer it now if you just stopped whining; this has run its course and as far as I'm aware I've informed you of the things you had wrong a few posts ago.

Edited March 14, 2013 by Ingasmeeg

[o-richardson@live.co.uk 34]

No one is sayin it not :) just trying to explain to a certain spastic that there is going to be duping issues no matter what the team does when it's released people will find a way. That's the point! And I'm fairly sure if it got to be an issue there would be wipes, once private servers are back out it won't be an issue

[Xianyu 820]

No one is sayin it not :) just trying to explain to a certain spastic that there is going to be duping issues no matter what the team does when it's released people will find a way. That's the point! And I'm fairly sure if it got to be an issue there would be wipes, once private servers are back out it won't be an issue

I'm sorry, but, what? You're explaining to a certain SPASTIC, IE me, that there WILL BE DUPING ISSUES?

I was under the impression that that was the entire point of my original post. For measures to be taken in the event of duping. But hey, I don't understand that there will be duping issues, somehow. Seems legit.

Thanks for explaining that to me, buddy. Maybe tomorrow you can tell me that the game will be a standalone and not a mod, I think I'm having trouble with that concept too. /sarcasm