Rocket, GJ on this Mod But...

[nahholmes 0]

...Wouldn't it make a little more sense if before you went around setting no guns on spawn and tweaking zed AI you fixed infinite ammo exploits, tweaked the food drops, fixed server hopping for gear, and fixed logging out to avoid death.

You know, all the little things that people who complain the game is too easy tend to do without even thinking twice about it. Then they come on here and complain the game is too easy.

I agree the game was too easy, but fix the most obviously unfair things about it before you go adjusting the difficulty level. Now I think it will just encourage more people to abuse ammo/DC/server hopping exploits.

[vonlinchen 26]

This is an alpha, it doesn't matter if shit is broaken, this is the point at which new elements are added to the game & tested.

Beta is where the bugs will be fixed, unless game breaking.

These posts are starting to annoy me, this is a mod that is being made in personal time without a cost to the alpha testers.

If the dev team feel like adding one feature before another thats up to them, we should leave them to it. Instead of moaning at them & probably making them want to just give up o nthe mod all together.

[nahholmes 0]

I wasn't moaning. People aren't going to give accurate feedback when they basically can't avoid exploiting (that 1/2 empty clip will refill on login whether I want it to or not) or have become so used to exploiting they don't even think twice about it.

FYI I'm a software engineering major, but thanks for attempting to explain how software development works, guess we should have Rocket roll back any non-gameplay fixes he's done so far because that's obviously not supposed to be fixed until beta (needless to say this poster doesn't know what he's talking about also there was a whiffed attempt to fix DC to avoid death in this release).

[luckyhendrix 2]

I don't think you get that this alpha is mainly meant to test features . It is not meant to iron out bugs, as long as the features maintain sufficient functionality to be correctly tested that's what is important. Those exploit you quoted affect only remotely the other changes, so they may not be on the top of the priority list.

[nahholmes 0]

Rocket listens to player feedback extensively (Something which can easily ruin a game if not done carefully).

Many of the people providing feedback are also using exploits.

The result is Rocket is getting poor feedback from many players.

Some of the people arguing for no guns at spawn will turn around and play the game knowing once they get a gun they will never run out of ammo (because they will just reconnect before emptying clip). Some of the people saying the game is too easy will DC at the first sign of trouble or run North to the airfield every time they die then server hop until they get good gear.

If these features were being run as stress tests I would agree these weren't issues, but he's actively taking opinions on gameplay. Opinions based on gameplay full of exploits.

[ImaffoI 22]

I think you are exxagerating the amount of duping,alt f4 ing and other things are occuring. They are serious problems, but they dont affect feature testing

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

I have to partially agree with the OP here. Yes, it's an Alpha, but rocket is clearly interested in tweaking the overall difficulty level of the game to his liking as he is trying out new ways to add challenges, etc.

Well, guess what? Fix the bug that refills all my clips and hunger/thirst when I relog, and that will be a HUGE increase in difficulty and challenge without requiring any new features or tweaks whatsoever.

Yes, it's an Alpha. Yes things are broken. But that doesn't mean the team shouldn't have some basic priorities. Get existing features to function at a "reasonable" level before moving on. This is a basic tenet software development, even during Alpha. I don't consider magically filling magazines or free food/water in a survival game "reasonable," before the discussion goes that way.

---

I think you are exxagerating the amount of duping

That would be hard to do. Considering one server restart can basically duplicate an entire tent or vehicle's worth of equipment, it's hard to understate the amount of NVGs, high powered rifles and ammunition that people could generate if they can control when a server restarts (hmm). I have played with so many admins who magically are happy to give me an M16, 10 clips of STANAG and NVGs the first time they meet me... it makes one wonder.

Again, yes, it's Alpha but when you start talking about tweaking the difficulty of the game because this thing or that thing is too common, you need to consider what % of the existing inventory has come from duplicated items or items stored in duplicated tents (that would have otherwise had to have been discarded).

[aforeffort 0]

@ZedDeadBaby, you do realise that this doesn't actually add any difficulty to the game right? You are simply abusing the game, just play it right instead.

[Imbalanxd 59]

To answer the original question: no.

[nahholmes 0]

@ZedDeadBaby' date=' you do realise that this doesn't actually add any difficulty to the game right? You are simply abusing the game, just play it right instead.

[/quote']

It's deeper than that I'm afraid.

Some people abuse the system to a point where it has become a part of the way they play the game. These people are incapable of giving proper feedback on game difficulty.

Some people never abuse the system intentionally. Still they get ammo refills at the end of every game session.

Some people play fair until they finally get a good gun, then when they get low on ammo they justify it (Well I could dig around Deer Huts and find new ammo clips, but that would just waste time and since I know I could do it I'll just take 10 seconds and re-login instead).

Some people who are complaining the game is too hard, are only saying that because they are dying to exploiters.

I mean how many players do you think have been killed by a gun farmed from server hopping?

How many players have died in a shootout where the guy had extra bullets he should have ran out of long ago?

How many players have died to someone who would have died hours ago but ALT+f4'd out of the game when things got hairy?

How many players have saved themselves from a zombie horde multiple times on the same 3 clips of ammo? (that they should have exhausted long ago)

How many players would have killed that guy and gotten his gear only to have him DC?

How many players have been in a firefight with someone with low ammo while the other guy should have low ammo but instead just had his clips refilled and was able to be more liberal with his shots?

Plugging these holes does change the difficulty, even if you don't exploit. It will nerf those who do and stop putting everyone else at a disadvantage which will allow everyone to give more accurate feedback on the gameplay and difficulty.

ALSO as far as servers holding # of bullets in clips this seems like a pretty important thing to stress test.

EDIT - Also I love what these forums have become. If you even suggest there is one thing that Rocket could be doing different you are whining and everyone who disagrees with you apparently gets a gold star. If Rocket's like "I'm going to fix these things in the next update" I expect everyone here arguing with me to be like "NOOOO, YOU CAN'T THIS IS ALPHA!!!"

It's just a suggestion. I'm not saying Rocket is doing it wrong and I do love the mod, but if you are going to take community suggestions on gameplay and difficulty it's probably a good idea to make sure everyone is playing the same game first. Apparently that is a controversial idea for some reason?

[MiniLink 0]

the most people don't know what an Alpha is -.- this is the big problem with Open Alpha test. they don't understand or they not want understand.

[nahholmes 0]

the most people don't know what an Alpha is -.- this is the big problem with Open Alpha test. they don't understand or they not want understand.

Yes, thank you for the standard "know it all" forum reply. I'll be sure to dig up my old textbooks and cross out all the incorrect information and paste in a short paragraph explaining Alpha to members of a video game forum. Just for the record, what part of Alpha do I start soliciting gameplay input from a public internet forum? I will need to write that in as well.

Alpha was likely explained as a way of saying "Don't come in here and complain about every little thing, we know the game has bugs, you may die or lose all your stuff for no reason, understand you are playing a game that is not fully developed and will change significantly and maybe without notice."

I was pointing out many people exploit and these people exploiting changes the game for everyone (from difficulty to overall experience). I was trying to make my first post short and convey my point quickly, but the basic idea is the things I have listed will change the way the game is played when they are patched over FOR EVERYONE (Regardless if they were exploiting or not). People will die more, bullets will be more scare, many people will alter the way they play the game, more players will be spawning (as a result of dying more) = more active coastal region, risk/reward of farmed areas will completely change, ect... These issues are all things that are integral to the finished game and will need to be patched eventually no matter what direction the game goes in from here.

My opinion was why not attempt to fix them now before you take a whole bunch of opinions on what direction the game should go in from people playing in an environment rampant with exploits? If Rocket wasn't taking player input (actively seeking it out) this wouldn't be as much of an issue and I wouldn't have even made this post, but he seems to be taking player opinions very seriously and IMO this input is all tainted by the current state of infinite ammo, server farming, ALT+F4, and all that jazz...

Is that not a reasonable opinion to have/share on my part? If so why not?

[Timberfox 2]

I like how you say that anyone who thinks the game is too easy, is a cheater and an exploiter.

[nidza 0]

Mod is great I am slowly getting all my bros from BF2:PR to play with me.

Most of the don't want to play something that is in Alpha and I understand why.

The main problem in this game is the overwhelming scumbag minecraft,cod,*insert crappy game for prepubescent autistic lego children* reddit LE LOL meme community.

[Kobra (DayZ) 0]

I have to agree with OP. It may be a alpha, but you cant make a house ontop of mud. You have to set a foundation. This foundation is crooked and soft and it needs to be sturdy and straight.

[nahholmes 0]

I like how you say that anyone who thinks the game is too easy' date=' is a cheater and an exploiter.

[/quote']

Yes in the same post I agree the game was too easy...

MAIN POINT for the umpteenth time...

If you are going to take player input and use it to adjust your game IN MY OPINION it would be wise to fix the exploits (that you have stated publicly you plan to fix eventually anyways) that are making the game easier for some and harder for everyone else before you put too much confidence into the opinions of players.

If people come here and say the game is too easy and they are basically generating infinite ammo, what is that opinion worth?

If people come here and say the game is too hard because they go north and get killed by some guy who farmed servers for a sniper rifle then logs out every time he gets low on ammo what is that opinion worth?

The people who play this game in it's current state have a skewed view on what it will eventually become because of all the people exploiting. At the very least it would probably be wise to note that the game play experience will change greatly when for example people have that awesome rare gun they found at a chopper crash site and have to make the heartbreaking decision whether or not to ditch it for a Winchester with 4 reloads laying around it because they can't generate infinite ammo and are running low on rare bullets.

How many stories have you heard about people downgrading guns because they run out of ammo? VERY RARE... It would be a fairly common situation if clips didn't refill themselves.

[MrMorton 0]

I like how you say that anyone who thinks the game is too easy' date=' is a cheater and an exploiter.

[/quote']

Yes in the same post I agree the game was too easy...

MAIN POINT for the umpteenth time...

If you are going to take player input and use it to adjust your game IN MY OPINION it would be wise to fix the exploits (that you have stated publicly you plan to fix eventually anyways) that are making the game easier for some and harder for everyone else before you put too much confidence into the opinions of players.

If people come here and say the game is too easy and they are basically generating infinite ammo, what is that opinion worth?

If people come here and say the game is too hard because they go north and get killed by some guy who farmed servers for a sniper rifle then logs out every time he gets low on ammo what is that opinion worth?

The people who play this game in it's current state have a skewed view on what it will eventually become because of all the people exploiting. At the very least it would probably be wise to note that the game play experience will change greatly when for example people have that awesome rare gun they found at a chopper crash site and have to make the heartbreaking decision whether or not to ditch it for a Winchester with 4 reloads laying around it because they can't generate infinite ammo and are running low on rare bullets.

How many stories have you heard about people downgrading guns because they run out of ammo? VERY RARE... It would be a fairly common situation if clips didn't refill themselves.

you keep coming back to two bugs, infinitely respawning ammo, and DCing to avoid death.

I know for a fact a precursor method of dealing with DCers was implemented in 1.7.1, then rolled back as it was not working correctly.

As for the infinitely re spawning clips I do not remember seeing a specific fix oriented towards it, but I am sure he is aware of it.

What I am trying to get at is that just because something hasn't been fixed yet, doesn't mean it isn't being worked on.

Just for instance, think of the change to the starting kit. That is a major gameplay change, that could possibly dramatically affect the metagame. However, that kind of change is fairly simplistic to implement. Where as dealing with server issues and bugs is very time consuming and challenging to work through (if bugs were easy to fix, no games would have them). So rather than complain about it, just play the game and do your job as an alpha tester.

The goal of the alpha is to IMPROVE the game, meaning the game is at a less than complete stage at the moment. So maybe it will take 2 more patches for the fix, or maybe 5, but complaining harder doesn't make Rocket find bugs better.

[walrus2517 27]

Rocket is going to go at his own pace. As a software engineer you will appreciate that some of these bugs/issues you describe (item duping, disconnects, etc.) may not be easy fixes. Tweaking the zombie AI, editing starting equipment, etc. isn't easy either but probably easier than coming up with a working anti-disconnect feature (which he was going to try with 1.7.1 but the method he used didn't work correctly) Further, it appears more and more that Day Z is going to be built for Arma 3, an engine where some of these bugs may already be fixed so prioritizing them right now would be a waste of time.

You just have to keep in mind Rocket has a very long term view of his mod so we have to allow him to prioritize his work as he sees fit.

[ZedsDeadBaby 2287]

@ZedDeadBaby' date=' you do realise that this doesn't actually add any difficulty to the game right? You are simply abusing the game, just play it right instead.

[/quote']

Uhh, abusing? I have to log out sometimes, you know? To eat dinner, change a diaper, take a shower, go to work. Things like that. Human things. When I do so, all my clips refill and my hunger/thirst goes to full. That's abuse? It's not like I can ask it "pretty please don't do that" or something so, yeah, "play the game right" what? Do you want me to never log out ever again? Or are you just completely confused as to the issues I brought up? I can have a single 20 round DMR clip - I'm not shooting my DMR that often. Maybe once or twice per hour as circumstances require? So in a single session I use MAYBE 5 rounds, 10 if it's an exciting night?

One DMR clip has lasted me like a month.

I'm not abusing anything the game is just broken in some very important ways.

Again, I don't think it's at all unreasonable or counter to the definition of Alpha to expect basic, fundamental features to function reliably before diving into more advanced ones. It's just good design methodology in general, in software and elsewhere - build the foundation and make it solid before you start working on the floors above. The choices you make will be a lot more directed if the information you're gathering is based on something that resembles something that might actually exist in the product one day - which I assume "magical ammo and free food for everyone" will not.

[underscore 12]

Rocket is going to go at his own pace... You just have to keep in mind Rocket has a very long term view of his mod so we have to allow him to prioritize his work as he sees fit.

Yes, Our Lord works in mysterious ways. How dare these heretics question His plan.

[nahholmes 0]

you keep coming back to two bugs' date=' infinitely respawning ammo, and DCing to avoid death.

I know for a fact a precursor method of dealing with DCers was implemented in 1.7.1, then rolled back as it was not working correctly.

As for the infinitely re spawning clips I do not remember seeing a specific fix oriented towards it, but I am sure he is aware of it.

What I am trying to get at is that just because something hasn't been fixed yet, doesn't mean it isn't being worked on.

Just for instance, think of the change to the starting kit. That is a major gameplay change, that could possibly dramatically affect the metagame. However, that kind of change is fairly simplistic to implement. Where as dealing with server issues and bugs is very time consuming and challenging to work through (if bugs were easy to fix, no games would have them). So rather than complain about it, just play the game and do your job as an alpha tester.

The goal of the alpha is to IMPROVE the game, meaning the game is at a less than complete stage at the moment. So maybe it will take 2 more patches for the fix, or maybe 5, but complaining harder doesn't make Rocket find bugs better.

[/quote']

Yeah I got all that. I understand probably better than most people here what is going on. Coding is a lifelong love and soon to be full time career of mine. I'm not complaining about exploits as they will be fixed in time, I'm not complaining about gameplay changes as I see the importance of testing different things to find the right balance that will make the game interesting for long term play. I'm aware that the devs know about every exploit I've posted.

My OPINION is that these holes in gameplay are going to be fixed eventually and when they are they will alter the way the game is played for everyone, so why not fix them before taking opinions on gameplay from the community (opinions that relate directly to the difficulty of the game which is subject to change)? People's overall opinions on the game will change when infinite ammo, ALT + F4, server farming are removed from the game. I feel many of the complaints about the current game are based on problems stemming from these exploits.

The longer they wait to patch these exploits while accepting player input the longer they are making decisions based on a skewed game play experience.

For everyone throwing out the "THIS IS AN ALPHA" line my response would be that the most important lesson in software development, repeated in every single class I've ever taken, and emphasized over all other lessons, is that the farther a bug is allowed to persist through the development cycle the harder it will be to remove in the end.

If between now and when they decide to fix these issues they implement 20 new features those features may interfere with eventual solutions they want to implement to fix exploits. If they make 20 changes based on player input then fixing exploits changes player input, where does that get you?

These are my concerns, this is why I posted my OPINION. I am not whining or complaining. I want to see this game be the best it can be and I enjoy playing it even with all the bugs and exploits because I understand it is not a finished product and we are LUCKY to get a chance to play the mod instead of having alpha take placed behind closed doors. I wish nothing but the best to Rocket and his whole dev team which is why I am voicing my concerns. It is entirely possible they are working on fixes behind the scenes and have all this figured out already and are actively avoiding implementing changes that will interfere with fixing these exploits. At the same time, from my POV (knowing little to nothing of what is going on behind the scenes) I don't see the reason these issues seem to be lower on the priorities list than some other things being addressed (there could be a good reason obviously, but from the outside looking in it seems wise to fix these issues early so that they don't propagate through the dev cycle).

[Kolchak (DayZ) 5]

One DMR clip has lasted me like a month.

I'm not abusing anything the game is just broken.

He's right, the only thing he could do is fire off the last few rounds he had for no reason just so you wouldn't get upset when his mag refills. It's a problem with ARMA2, it wasn't made for any long term amount of persistence, honestly it's amazing that the dev team has gotten this much persistence out of it. Fixing the ammo problem borders on insanity when it comes to coding. The reason it works the way it does is because your character is essentially destroyed when you log, and recreated from a list when you log back in. Game doesn't really have a way to instantiate a partially full mag, it just doesn't know how. The only reason we can merge shotgun rounds now is because they created a new item for 2 rounds by themselves. and when you have 4 you can "merge" them by destroying the 4 pairs and instantiating you a full mag of 8 shotgun rounds. That's also the reason that the double barrel can only use the pairs and the 1014 can only use the 8 stacks, they're not actually the same item. In order to save partial mags properly, they would have to make a new version of the same item for every round it could be missing. Instead of having one version of a winchester mag, you'd have 15, one for a mag with 1 round max, one for 2 rounds max, one for 3 rounds max, ect ect. and you'd have to destroy the old one and instantiate the new one every time someone fired. Considering how long it takes the server to destroy and instantiate an empty water bottle to a full one when I fill my water, it'd say this solution just wouldn't work. Refilling mags are one of the few things I'd say we just have to deal with, mainly because the alternative is not feasible.

[deltron3o3o 29]

"it's alpha stop whining"

STFU

they are helping w/ alpha by giving out suggestions.

[benw 2]

the game is still too easy. If you can't get rid of the zeds, you suck.

The only annoying issue is that once i shot a zed, there will be infinite zeds coming for me.

[nahholmes 0]

Rocket is going to go at his own pace... You just have to keep in mind Rocket has a very long term view of his mod so we have to allow him to prioritize his work as he sees fit.

Yes' date=' Our Lord works in mysterious ways. How dare these heretics question His plan.

[/quote']

I think his response was the most reasonable so far actually. It's very fair to assume Rocket has a plan that accounts for some if not all of my concerns. At the same time million dollar studios full of devs fail all the time and NASA crashes rockets into Mars because someone forgot to convert feet to meters. I fail to see the wisdom of tweaking game difficulty based on player input in a game where exploits are actually unavoidable in normal game play. Doesn't mean there can't be a valid reason for doing things the way he does obviously, but I feel it was fair of me to voice my concerns in a short post given the mountains of completely useless crap he probably reads through daily on these forums.