replace humanity with human interaction

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

Woohaa, my first topic

In short: humans are social creatures and being close to another human being is important for our sanity and perceived security. As in a game this is different than IRL I would propose a mechanic that would make players interact with other players, or suffer light consequences like hearing voices etc

thout about this for some time, finally decided to make a topic about it.

I hate the current humanity mechanic because it is unrealistic and inaccurate. But at the same time I think there is something IRL that would prevent us from just shooting everyone on sight.

I think the game lacks some part of human psyche as there would be IRL in such a scenario – the interaction/socializing with other humans. IRL we tend to socialize at many levels and socializing is really really important to us, to the point that lack of interaction with others is considered an inhumane punishment (solitary confinement is actually banned in many countries), when we cannot socialize with friends, we will socialize with total strangers, even if we don’t like them, it is usually a preferable option to being completely alone.

In game this is missing, for a simple reason that we socialize outside of the game. We play dayz for couple of hours every day, but still socialize IRL with our friends&family so we don’t miss this in game (well, many still do, hence groups, most people preferring populated servers to empty ones, but the reason here is probably different). So when you play dayz, you don’t feel that need to socialize.

I think that some simple mechanic that would softly force you to “socialize” with other people would be in place, and would be rather simple, eg (numbers not being absolute):

For every 5 hours your character spends in game, you have to socialize with another player for 10 minutes, every minute counts, so if you socialize with somebody for 2 minutes, another 5 minutes, it is all added up. Socialize means spend that hour within 20 meters of another live player. How you spend that time, talking, trading, torture… it’s up to anybody, as long as other player is alive.

If you haven’t socialized, the punishment should not be extreme; basically you would ever so slightly start to hallucinate if you went for 5h without/insufficient interaction, at first you would hear random footsteps every 10-15 minutes, later hear an odd gunshot, or zombie sounds, just so it freaks the player a little, but not enough to destroy the game play altogether.

This is as far as I got with it, not really sure if I like it myself, but IMO something like this would be a much better solution than the humanity as we have it in the mod now.

Thoughts? Good? Bad? Room for improvement? Fire away

[Michaelvoodoo25 3120]

Welcome to the forums.

So what are the benefits of Human Interaction? why have this over Humanity?

Why Softly "force"? I might not want to one day, perhaps i like lone wolf gameplay, I don't want to sit and chat with other players?

Edited January 31, 2013 by Michaelvoodoo25

[indominator 95]

sadly theres no good way to sya how much human interaction would be done, its more a meta thing done outside of the boundaries of the game that influence the player, its called intent and its impossible to understand or measure it, i believe, so maybe trying to join some other survivors on the forum, not a clan if you dont want hierarchy, can be the group thingie, i am sorry but you have to make due with your social skills now because they prolly wont work with features or tools that do not represent the theme of the game. which i believe is desperation and survival, socialization is not a part of it, some eastern mmos have that in focus though.

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

Welcome to the forums.

So what are the benefits of Human Interaction? why have this over Humanity?

Why Softly "force"? I might not want to one day, perhaps i like lone wolf gameplay, I don't want to sit and chat with other players?

The only benifit is the KOS, you may not want to kill someone immediately, if you need him for your sanity, you don't have to talk to him, you can stalk him, whatever - althougb i think you mightnot shoot him once you get to know him...

Softly for the reason you named it, you can still be a lone wolf, although you may hear things, it will not really affect you in the woods in the midfle of nowhere, while in the cities...

[Zionist Wabbit 154]

At it's core, this is what the Humanity System does. Perhaps you missed it.

| If you interact more with people, give them Supplies / Bandage them / Blood-Transfusion, you gain Humanity point's. If you kill someone, especially someone high with Humanity, you loose those point's. The consequences, although not immediate, are brutal & often lead's to a lot of frustration over something they once found joy from. The consequences are as follows; Each new-life you gain a further 2,500 Humanity (The default) which add's to your 'score'. If your Humanity is astoundingly low, ie: -7,500, it will only grow to -5,000 - the limit for a Bandit Skin. With the Bandit Skin, you're quite a fun target for both Heroes, other Bandit's & even the common Player just doing a quick loot-run. This, naturally, lead's to a lot of annoyance on the Bandit's part when they're not the one with the high-power Rifle pointing down their face.

Yes, people don't look on that as a bad thing in the heat of the moment, but over time people realize that being a Bandit & having the Skin lead's to far more negative thing's, even well after your death. I also try and convey this simple motto I like to play by: Why take joy from stopping someone else's.

Edited January 31, 2013 by Zionist Wabbit

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

At it's core, this is what the Humanity System does. Perhaps you missed it.

| If you interact more with people, give them Supplies / Bandage them / Blood-Transfusion, you gain Humanity point's. If you kill someone, especially someone high with Humanity, you loose those point's. The consequences, although not immediate, are brutal & often lead's to a lot of frustration over something they once found joy from. The consequences are as follows; Each new-life you gain a further 2,500 Humanity (The default) which add's to your 'score'. If your Humanity is astoundingly low, ie: -7,500, it will only grow to -5,000 - the limit for a Bandit Skin. With the Bandit Skin, you're quite a fun target for both Heroes, other Bandit's & even the common Player just doing a quick loot-run. This, naturally, lead's to a lot of annoyance on the Bandit's part when they're not the one with the high-power Rifle pointing down their face.

Yes, people don't look on that as a bad thing in the heat of the moment, but over time people realize that being a Bandit & having the Skin lead's to far more negative thing's, even well after your death. I also try and convey this simple motto I like to play by: Why take joy from stopping someone else's.

This isn't really about current humanity, but since you brought it up. I thought that that it was supposed to prevent KOS, in fact it promotes it. Once a bandit, for whatever reason the game system declared you one, its kill or be killed; because a bandit knows he will be shot on sight he will shoot everyone on sight, its a never ending circle really...

Now you could be nice enough to point me to the flaws of my proposal...

[radivmoe 47]

This isn't really about current humanity, but since you brought it up. I thought that that it was supposed to prevent KOS, in fact it promotes it. Once a bandit, for whatever reason the game system declared you one, its kill or be killed; because a bandit knows he will be shot on sight he will shoot everyone on sight, its a never ending circle really...

Now you could be nice enough to point me to the flaws of my proposal...

OWNED!

(not literally)

[Zionist Wabbit 154]

I neglected to point any flaw's due to my already explaining it's completely unnecessary. Shall I really now explain the obnoxiously obvious? OK; How would you suggest this is genuinely implemented into a Game currently using the Real Virtuality engine which is based, and based solely on, a War Simulator with small tweaks to enhance it further. How would you Monitor whether someone has 'socialised'? How would you know if they hadn't simply ran by one-another without noticing? How would you be able to know someone whom had socialised didn't simply kill the person afterwards? How would you be able to force people to do something in a game marketed as ''This is DayZ.. This is your story''?

If you can dismiss a point, then you must be able to re-enforce your's.

[vaevictis 18]

I kinda like the idea of socializing.

Somebody on this forum mentioned handshake (salute) which would make you a part of the group.

Example: You meet a person, handshake him and then you would be a part of the group with this person (socialization completed). If you are a few clicks away from the group then you are not part of the group anymore and socialization counter starts running again.

So no handshake -> no group.

Handshake -> part of the group.

Go away or hand shaken person killed -> no group.

This would limit or minimize random people killing and there would be more human interaction between random players, not just shot on sight...

You can still play as lone wolf without any major consequences, however there would be random sounds as Xul mentioned (like zombie sounds, voices in the head, doors opening, person crying,....).

Current system of getting Hero or Bandit skin is kinda stupid, if I would be a bandit I would not wear an eye patch or a bandanna or any other distinct clothes as a bandit.

I would be as indistinct as possible, so other people would and could not recognize me.

Plus there are a lot of people who kill people just to get a bandit skin, cause it is different.

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

I neglected to point any flaw's due to my already explaining it's completely unnecessary. Shall I really now explain the obnoxiously obvious? OK; How would you suggest this is genuinely implemented into a Game currently using the Real Virtuality engine which is based, and based solely on, a War Simulator with small tweaks to enhance it further. How would you Monitor whether someone has 'socialised'? How would you know if they hadn't simply ran by one-another without noticing? How would you be able to know someone whom had socialised didn't simply kill the person afterwards? How would you be able to force people to do something in a game marketed as ''This is DayZ.. This is your story''?

If you can dismiss a point, then you must be able to re-enforce your's.

It is not my intention to enforce not killing, just not killing on site (even wrote in OP that you can torture people and it would still count)

from my experience in dayz, the first couple of moments you get close to someone are the most intense, so if we could delay that first shot at least somewhat, people will have time to "explain themselves"

Technically, If the mod can detect a bulet landing near a player it shouldn't be to hard to detect a player in vicinity either (on server only, so it wouldnt be exploited)

Wrote this on the phone so sorry for the typos

[Jars (DayZ) 63]

Sorry , but living in solitude doesn't make you hear voices in your head .

Some people actually prefer solitude , this doesn't make them crazy or hear voices , that's just a silly assertion .

Not every one needs to "socialize" as you have put it , to be a healthy person .

Edited February 1, 2013 by Jars

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

While the voices may not be the best representation of IRL solitude, it is an effect that can be represented in the game

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solitary_confinement#Effects

[Rekli 995]

yes but those people aren't deciding to be locked in a small room,though most people DECIDE to roam sround themselves,i think being forced from interaction affects people not DECIDING against interaction

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

so you suggest that being completely alone in an end of the world situation would have absolutely no effect on a persons mental health? Unfortunately I cannot find any scientific articles on that subject, but I suggest you watch this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPbz5TDy6fs

toward the end (2h, 2min) his behavior is interesting to say the least (and this guy did it of his own free will, prepared, and no zombies/catastrophe around him...)

[joe_mcentire 2073]

Why not introduce a model referring to the psychic apparatus defined in Sigmund Freud's structural model of the psyche.

Super-Ego <--> Hero

Ego <--> Survivor

Id <--> Bandit

So roughly we can leave the existing system in terms of termini. Id, Ego and Super-Ego are based on "humane" interaction of the player with environment and other players.

influencing effects are (it would lead to either pos. or neg. effects, according to the proper definiton, so don't pin me down on this right now):

- pacifistic attitude

How important is the constant "use" of a weapon to you? Do you prefer a dialog to a drawn weapon? How do you interpret dayz - killing or purely surviving?

pacifistic attitude is affected due to:

e.g.

based on shots fired

amount of time weapons are (un)holsterd

amount of "hits" on other characters in relation to "life-time"

- respect for wildlife

Is your tolerance only concerning ppl or dou you also respect wildlife? Do you know most (serial) killers started with torturing and/or furthermore killing animals (no and i don't mean hunters for that matter)? Again: killing or purely surviving?

respect for wildlife is affected due to:

e.g.

animal gets killed and meat is (not) utilized within x sec/min

overkills/ improper ways in killing (e.g. by grenades)

non-lootable animals are killed

- altruism/ generosity

Stands for itself: Are you a hero or a villain? Are you European/US or Aussie/Kiwi :P?

altruism/generosity is affected due to:

e.g.

using bandages, blood bags or whatever on others

amount of times giving consumables/ammo/weapons etc. to one by not receiving anything in return (or within a given time)

duty to rescue

coup de grâce

- social intelligence

Are you a loner, living withdrawn, avoiding the remains of societ or do you team up and try to keep what's left of actually being a human?

social intelligence is affected due to:

e.g. amount of times...

...using voip directly to nearby players

...beeing nearby players

...of successful bartering with others

Of course this is just a rough developed idea. But it would be somehow possible to introduce something like this and most of all: loners would also have the chance to remain on a somewhat reasonable humanity level.

EDIT: to be edited to develop this further..

Edited February 3, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

You would still end up with a skin given by higher authority (server god), and others would judge you only on that skin

[joe_mcentire 2073]

who says that? i was just thinking about how to develop the current humanity mechanism further towards a more valuable mechanic, as defined by some theorists. i was not thinking about skins etc. (yet)

Edited February 3, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[Gordon Axeman 191]

Stupid bambis. Let me guess, you got shot on sight by another player, and you decided to make revenge?

These topics about sanity are freaking me out. Punishing lone wolves and bandits playstyles suggestions are slowly becoming a mainstream.

[joe_mcentire 2073]

Stupid bambis. Let me guess, you got shot on sight by another player, and you decided to make revenge?

These topics about sanity are freaking me out. Punishing lone wolves and bandits playstyles suggestions are slowly becoming a mainstream.

then simply avoid them ;). and after all it will be, what rocket wants the game to feel like. So why are there bandits and heroes along with their (dis)abilities right at the moment in the mod? maybe he didn't had the intention of everyone's running around and killing on sight. So the devs seemed to dislike this idea... just a guess

[Gordon Axeman 191]

then simply avoid them ;). and after all it will be, what rocket wants the game to feel like. So why are there bandits and heroes along with their (dis)abilities right at the moment in the mod? maybe he didn't had the intention of everyone's running around and killing on sight. So the devs seemed to dislike this idea... just a guess

About rocket you are right. But there were much more interesting suggestions like perma-identity. I don't like all these sanity suggestions, as they prevent you from playing like you want. This has gone even further, making you find friends!

I cant avoid such topics, if rocket implements these, it will half-kill the game.

[joe_mcentire 2073]

ok i understand you fully and completely...as sometimes randomly mentioned: too much realism breaks a game. And this sanity thingy is for sure something too much into depth. And in fact, "right at the moment" playing the loner in the mod is not satisfying any more, at least to me, when i played the last time (that was quite some time ago).

But purely based on the topic which is humanity - you either need much social interaction or at least try to hold on your moral/ethic standards (Super-Ego) and keep it on a reasonable level. Both ways are, heavily simplified, mechanisms to let you know your still humane.

Edited February 3, 2013 by joe_mcentire

[Gordon Axeman 191]

ok i understand you fully and completely...as sometimes randomly mentioned: too much realism breaks a game. And this sanity thingy is for sure something too much into depth. And in fact, "right at the moment" playing the loner in the mod is not satisfying any more, at least to me, when i played the last time (that was quite some time ago).

But purely based on the topic which is humanity - you either need much social interaction or at least try to hold on your moral/ethic standards (Super-Ego) and keep it on a reasonable level. Both ways are, heavily simplified, mechanisms to let you know your still humane.

I think you may be given humanity for interaction. But not vice versa (penalties for lack of interaction).

[joe_mcentire 2073]

that would be one way. positive and negative effects for actions taken. if you do nothing at all, your humanity shall stay at a constant level for all i care.

[slivniku@gmail.com 93]

Super-Ego <--> Hero

Ego <--> Survivor

Id <--> Bandit

I made an assumption baed on the above

as per the suggestion:

I would prefer to have no humanity system in the game (current system, or mine suggestion for that matter), but given that the current humanity system is being debated constantly and it is all about grinding, I decided to give an alternative rather than to just bash on other people's threads

any system where some supreme being deciedes wehther you behaved good or bad and than provides you with a rewqrd or punishment is IMO bad in its core and has no place in the game

[joe_mcentire 2073]

of course... the currently implemented system seems very odd and bland at the same time, and after all it goes somewhat also against the devs own believes. It seems to be merely a temp. "fix" as they were not sure how to cope with the given problems.

And there are skill mechanisms under discussion which are far more subtle and/or creative than the benefits/penalties that came with Heroes/Bandits.

So i am almost certainly there will be big changes in the SA. But it is a very fine idea to discuss these problems in the given threads.

The thing is, which impacts do make sense regarding a functional humanity-system?!