Weapon Misfire and/or Jam

[dchristy87 12]

I think if, very rare and random, weapon misfires or jams could be implemented it would make DayZ better.

I've searched through the forums and I've seen it touched on as a subcategory to, typically, weapons maintenance or something. (But I don't really see that as necessary).

Maybe special magazines with a very very low spawn rate could be designed that look and are titled exactly the same as normal magazines but have a special property that when you hit the 12th round or something, it causes your weapon to misfire. In return, you will be forced to do immediate action (tap, rack, bang, which is a really quick action to perform). Or even more rare ones that cause it to double feed, causing you to have to unload and unjam it and reload again. Just thought this specifically would add even more dynamics to an already dynamic game.

[Fraggle (DayZ) 15720]

It's already in the SA ;)

Edit - great name BTW, one of my fav songs.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Fraggle

[dchristy87 12]

Awesome, thanks for the reply and heads up!

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

This isn't something I'm for if it's just something done at random with no real reason. Primarily because weapon jams/misfires are generally represented by poor maintenance and/or malfunctioning ammunition. I don't think the game is going to get too indepth about ammunition inspection, and it has already been confirmed weapons will suffer degradation.

What that means is anyones guess. Will it be like fallout where the more you shoot the weapon, the more it's condition wears? (That would be stupid fyi) or would it require you to actually clean the weapon to prevent things like jams, misfires, etc. (which would be cool)

[A.Williams 17]

The ak-47 automatic rifle is only known to have jammed 3-4 times in its world service record

[logan23 118]

The ak-47 automatic rifle is only known to have jammed 3-4 times in its world service record

Does this include not cleaning and putting it in bad environments over long periods of time like years or months?

[terminal_boy 860]

The ak-47 automatic rifle is only known to have jammed 3-4 times in its world service record

Nonsense. While the AK design is very tolerant of carbon fouling and debris, they will start to cycle slower and slower until the gas system is so fouled that bolt will not travel fully rearward and you'll have a failure to feed.

Lack of basic cleaning and/or lubrication will eventually cause a failure to feed/fire with any weapon.

Differing regional concepts of quality control on locally available 7.62 x 39 ammo is still the number one cause of unreliability with the AK47/AKM series of rifles.

[gsp167 95]

Okay man, the AK47 is one of the most resistent if not THE most resistent in the world. I'm not an AK fan but, they never jam. You can dig them in sand/mud for days and still be able to fire with them.

The M16's and M4's series however will jam with a little bit of dust. (Stil love em' but they're cheap ;) )

And i'm not against this suggestion but FOR THE LOVE OF GOD don't make gun jams every 10 minutes. That's something that should be extremly rare, like 0,1% chance of jamming.

[Dreygar (DayZ) 178]

The M16's and M4's series however will jam with a little bit of dust. (Stil love em' but they're cheap ;) )

Considering I've been issued a variety of those platforms from unit to unit, I must say I have never had an issue. Maintenance being the key to that, and not dousing it down in lubrication.

Whether in training or in a combat environment you are moving around and can't always compensate for debris and dust in your maneuvers, either way it fired flawlessly.

On a side note, having trained nearly 2,000 Iraqi Army and Police and Pershmerga forces I gotta say their care in regards to the AK-47 is pretty much nonexistant. That weapon is extremely reliable because it's not complicated and built with some lasting parts.

As I said most weapons when properly maintained will take care of you, but sometimes bad ammunition can cause their own problems. Modern firearms are generally pretty accurate and reliable as we've come a long way.

Edited December 12, 2012 by Dreygar

[Failbait 60]

Considering I've been issued a variety of those platforms from unit to unit, I must say I have never had an issue. Maintenance being the key to that, and not dousing it down in lubrication.

Whether in training or in a combat environment you are moving around and can't always compensate for debris and dust in your maneuvers, either way it fired flawlessly.

On a side note, having trained nearly 2,000 Iraqi Army and Police and Pershmerga forces I gotta say their care in regards to the AK-47 is pretty much nonexistant. That weapon is extremely reliable because it's not complicated and built with some lasting parts.

As I said most weapons when properly maintained will take care of you, but sometimes bad ammunition can cause their own problems. Modern firearms are generally pretty accurate and reliable as we've come a long way.

I love it when people start talking about these m16 vs Ak47 platform comparisons and clearly are repeating something Lee Marvin alluded to on the history channel.

And then someone like you comes in and sets it straight.

Also, thank you for your service.

[Roark92 90]

flintlocks failed to fire 50% of the time i believe? imagine that on a battlefield. there'd be a lot of awkward silences between enemy soldiers. lol

[Roac 19]

They had a 1/3 chance of hitting anything at 50m.

[DiazWaffleCrabstro 39]

ill post what i have typed prewiously for another shortsighted person who underestimated the modern weaponry.

incase the copy pasta, is tl:dr, Jamming and missfire in a realistic setting like dayz is trying to be, is way too rare to have a huge impact. propably has a 1-2% increase to game difficulty of even that much.

consider this, US army requires A MINIMUM! of 2000 rounds fired without malfunctions from their assault rifles, HK416 and couple of others do 3000+ and this can occur in only one rifle out of 20. so if you actually add the jamming mechanism, and want to keep it realistic... well you might as well not. since the bar for a severe malfunction(where you need to do something else than just chamber/reload a new round) is that amount of rounds fired, NONSTOP! Hell the modern AK's can fire more rounds than the HK416 and still not malfunction.

Now ask yourself the question, when do you see someone in chernaruss carrying 2000+ rounds for any given assault rifle, and fire them all at you?

for more food for thought, The beretta 9mm has an average 17,500 rounds fired without malfunction, and that was with the old models, since then they have perfected the model and made it more durable.

I could see the use for jamming in Arma2, but DayZ... it wouldnt have large enough impact.

As far as the other weapons, such as sniper rifles, they are pretty damn rugged too.

you can litelarry drive over some of the AK variants with a military truck, and it would still fire. Also even if they saw no action for months, but holed up in a shelter, would mean the conditions didnt change too much, not to mention the military guns found in the military installments, (due to not having a gun rack mechanism in game) could still be in the oil, making them extremely resistant to the elements. And keeping the guns in proper oil, not too much, not too little, where in an emergency you could fire it without cleaning the oil out, it would perform as expected, is drilled into the soldiers, not just here, but everywhere. Also a good soldier, doing a daily or weekly maintenance on an AK type AR, takes propably 10.15 minutes including time to set it up. Also there is an old saying which is rather true due to AK and all variants being designed to fire under any conditions(A deliberate step back was made in its design, instead of building a more refined weapon, they made it simpler to reach this) "the worst you can do to an AK is clean it"

The modern AR's are usually subjected to temperatures below -35 celsius prior to cold test fire, AK, -50 celsius, you would propably need to go to either of the polar caps to get most of the Assault rifles to jam from cold weather. although it comes alot down to the oils you use, living in a northern country, we use oils that dont become too thick till it is -42 outside. The other major factor i would imagine is the ammunition failing. but still you need some extremely cold weather, the standard oils you can buy from gun shops around the world are usually safe to use between -20 and -25 for reference, here in finland, the coldest average day temperatures for the last 20 years, which has to last longer than 2 days, in southern finland is -26(know it because of my profession)

What about MG's? some might ask, well someone else tried to be a mr. smarty pants with that already, here is the convo to cover that base too.

Pat aka Silas, on 05 December 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

Do you ever used a gun?

Malfunction are ofter than you think.

Maybie it´s dirt, water or you done something wrong.

In real, you HAVE to clean your weapon after every firefight, if not, it will get some malfunction.

A MG have to cool down after 150 Rounds (by the MG3 which the germans are using) and this take some hours.

to which i replied

HK416 and all the other guns(apart from M16 the original vietnam war model) are subject to those firing tests in varying conditions, they get dirt inside them high humidity conditions, you name it, so you know nothing apparently, even the humble sidearms the armies around the world choose for their line of work go through those tests, and beretta is not an exception, you know it is such a famous gun test, you could have googled it, gues you didnt have the brains for it ;D Also those weapons are subjected to those tests without cleaning them.

As far as your argument for MG's go, that is another half truth, the barrel needs to cooldown after a continous burst of 150 rounds And they need to be given the order to perform it, or the situation has to call for it, not to mention most army units pair up people for MG tasks, and in most countries they have a spare barrel, making it a smoother action.

The very idea of a machine gun is that you can keep shooting short or a bit longer controlled bursts to supress the enemy without having to reload, which is why most of the time emptying an ammo canister/belt is discouraged.

hopefully we can burry the rest of the jamming conversation, and potential future "demands" to get it added.

[Jeff the killer 32]

maybe for certain guns but most of these guns are highly resiliant eg i can get a video if you want of a guy using a ak47 and firing until its flaming and a guy who buried his g17 for i think a month and it fires fine.

[dekartz 315]

You have to realize however that most of the weapons used in DayZ aren't YOURS. You can't know the level of care they received unless you have a looksie yourself and/or wait for the proverbial shit to hit the fan and for your gun to jam on you.

[OrLoK 16185]

Hello there

Take a peek on youtube, AK's jamming all over. Might be clones, might be dodgey ammo but 4 times in their service history I find hard to believe.

Regardless, I like the sounds of missfires/stovepipes etc etc, as long as they are handled properly and not like FC2.

If they're in, I'm sure they'll be done well.

Rgds

LoK

[Steak and Potatoes 13480]

I cant wait for my rifle to jam when I'm one zed kill away from 1,000 and become over run forced to the ground and violated eaten.

[logan23 118]

I wonder if you have GunA and GunB

Now both are at say 60% and need some cleaning,...This is where Jamming happens ever so often but-

Does the type of gun actual Gun brand/name actually get factored in?

So with GunA might jam (at the need cleaning state above) every 30 rounds (number is place holder)

While GunB might jam (at the need cleaning state above/same percentage as GunA) every 20 rounds?

Just wondering...

[DiazWaffleCrabstro 39]

You have to realize however that most of the weapons used in DayZ aren't YOURS. You can't know the level of care they received unless you have a looksie yourself and/or wait for the proverbial shit to hit the fan and for your gun to jam on you.

i would expect this only off the older weapons and only the ones found in some deer stands or barns. I mean look at the beretta 9mm 17,500 rounds fired on average per unit(older models) before a missfire or a jam, or look at the AR's they each are extremely rugged, some going for as many as 3000 rounds fired on average per unit before first missfire or jam, now look at how fast the Zapocalypse apparently was, you have soldiers still going around in full camo and intact combat vests, now, do you seriously assume say a beretta or an AK that was used by either a soldier or a civilian is really in that bad of a shape, more so, do you think the soldier or a civilian carried around thousands of rounds of ammunition around? for comparison, the AK would not see that much action with out maintenance, for a couple of reasons.

A.) it is fast to maintain, when i for example nailed all the components and how to best maintain them, on my AK variant(The finnish RK) it took me no more than 4-5 minutes to strip the weapon, clean the parts and barrel, check the innards for sand/dirt other shit, and put it back together. and that was a through cleanup, you can disassemble, remove dirt from mechanics, and reassemble it easily in 1-2 minutes without a fuss.

B.) the combat vest you see on soldiers(assuming they do same combat loads too) has room for 6 or 8 magazines, depending on the vest manufacturing year, 70's version has 6, 90's version has 8.and one mag in weapon. that is 270 ammo max.

C.) as i stated before, you can throw some of the more rugged AK variants under the tyre of a truck, and it will still fire, alot of the other modern AR's(featured in arma and dayz) have followed the same design principles and are close to or just as rugged.

D.) Modern AK, and most other AR,s have a trigger assembly that actually lets sand inside(if it gets there) to "escape" when the trigger is pulled and the weapon fires.

So to find a weapon that is prone to jamming in DayZ, it would be a diminishing minority, such as lee enfield or cz550 from a barn, winchester 1866 from a barn or a deer stand, 1911 from barn or deer stand. Basically mostly non recent weapons which are vulnerable to the elements and wear and tear fast, honestly, you can get better weapons so fast in this game, we could just forget the whole mechanism.

Edited December 14, 2012 by DiazWaffleCrabstro

[Sutinen 635]

The ak-47 automatic rifle is only known to have jammed 3-4 times in its world service record

I don't think that's possible, since it's so widely used. It is a reliable weapon, but it's not that good.

[dchristy87 12]

Lol, Well a lot of people just seem to be putting out facts about the likely hood of a weapon jamming/misfiring. All I'm saying is I've had misfires my share of times (yes, I kept my rifle immaculate). The Marine Corps likes to use shitty ammo that God only knows is how old for field ops/ firing ranges. So yes, the ammo is usually the culprit in those situations. This is why I said "special magazines" I imagine with the post apocalyptic world, all the ammunition the survivors are finding aren't exactly in it's tip top shape. Either way, I wasn't suggesting for a misfire to occur every other round. A 0.1% chance is fine with me. I've read somewhere that a goal was to have the player basically feel frustrated at times. I don't imagine any player who managed to find themselves in a downtown firefight or picking off zombies in a struggle for survival and had to take a few seconds to fix a jam/misfire for their first time would really complain about it. It makes for good stories and experiences.

I cant wait for my rifle to jam when I'm one zed kill away from 1,000 and become over run forced to the ground and violated eaten.

lol, thats the exact type of experience I'm looking for. I know that would be a story I'd share with my friends when trying to recruit them to pick up the game and play with me...

[logan23 118]

We all know that some form of Weapon misfire/jam mechanic will be in DayZ SA,

What we should be talking about is how best it could be done,

What games have gotten it right with the gun jamming and what games didn't and why.

Should guns start off needing to be cleaned?

Should certain guns have a better chance at misfire/jamming then others when they are at the same level of deterioration?

Should the use of the weapon = the speed of the deterioration and should certain guns deteriorate faster due to the make of the gun.

Should there be a chance that guns being damaged during a gun fight, especially if the attacker is using a high cal gun and hotting the player in body, not the head? If a player is killed, should there be a chance that the weapon the player is caring could be damaged? Higher chance if melee weapon or gun used in the kill?

I think these are questions that would help with the developers in the SA.

We all know this feature is going to be in game, so let's talk about how it could be added and what are the pitfalls if placed in incorrectly.

[Happymrsnowman 52]

Okay, so what you're suggesting isn't WEAPON malfunctions such as mechanical trouble with the gun (broken firing pin, damaged chamber, etc) What your idea is, is crappy ammo. That actually makes a lot of sense, since the ammo you find has been exposed to the elements and is potentially corroded and/or wet. I've personally run into this IRL where some ammo I've used is just shit quality and has caused my weapon to malfunction. I like this idea, it would work. It would just be a random event, just like it would be in real life. Maybe finding good quality, namebrand ammo would actually be valuable, like finding a brand new box of winchester .45ACP would be a GOLDMINE because you could depend on it no matter what.

[dchristy87 12]

Exactly! Like someone mentioned before. Finding a weapon in a deer stand with a mag or something would be way different than finding a weapon or unopened can of 5.56 rounds in a military building/home or something.

[A.Williams 17]

I don't think that's possible, since it's so widely used. It is a reliable weapon, but it's not that good.

I have only heard as I live in the uk and thus am unable to own firearms