Simple idea to fix mindless deathmatching

[Thaatu (DayZ) 0]

I see Garymooyson has a lot to say.

DayZ is how you interpret it. You want to sit on a hill and take out a player who wasn't even aware you were there? That's your prerogative.

Reminds me of Schindler's List. Except the character in the movie was a psychopath and the character in the game has no personality. The player can log off, rest for a while and suffer no accumulation of stress. Obviously killing doesn't affect the player, because the player doesn't really kill. The character on the other hand does. If he kills enough he just changes his clothes, which is kind of a silly effect for low humanity.

But I don't want to see those players just start to have psychological trauma. Or any other mechanic in game that facilitates one style of play over the other.

There are lots of controlling mechanisms in the game already. For example transportation is limited and some weapons are rare, so I can't deside to become a chopper pilot just like that. Need for food and water restricts players' actions. Also stealth is clearly encouraged.

And let's not forget it's not the game making you kill others for fun. Changing the game won't change deathmatching, but making you actually need to conserve your ammo, making the zeds harder, making the survival aspect harder in itself, will end a lot of the shooting for thrills.

Aren't all those changes you suggest considered to change the game? The game doesn't tell people to kill others, but gamers make up a huge part of the it. Those gamers aren't given any reason not to, so most resort to shooting on sight. About harder survival, isn't mentality a big part of it? I'm not advocating mental problems from solitude, uncertainty and fear of death. Those are already implemented and are represented by the ambient music (although judging by user-posted videos in YouTube, most people apparently turn music volume completely off). The biggest taboo in modern culture, into which all the characters were raised judging by their clothes and the setting of the game, is murder. The characters don't reveal any remnants of their upbringing.

DayZ is a survival horror/thriller game. The concept of mental damage would amplify all those categories. Survival, check. Horror, check. Thriller, check. Also some players seem to regard DayZ as a more realistic take on zombie games. Realism, check. It would mostly affect bandits, people who kill other people for their selfish needs. In a world where humanity has a real and terrifying foe and for all we know is quickly becoming extinct, how come it wouldn't affect their consciousness? Bandits are basically siding with monsters. It should take a toll on them.

OT - I really don't think this is something you regulate. After all, it's the not knowing, being alone for so long and the fear of an encounter and what will happen that is the core gameplay of DayZ (IMHO) and I think trying to control or steer that away would ruin it for a lot of people.

Consider it a feature. It still doesn't control anyone. I'm not saying there should be a constant sound of a HMG firing at your ear. Subtlety is the way to go here. Sounds you as a player wouldn't distinguish from real ones. You would never know if a sniper actually shot at you, or was your character just being paranoid.

I believe this suggestion comes from being murdered too many times out of hand, whilst I can empathise I don't feel it's something within the game that needs changing.

Twice murdered. Killed by zombies a whole lot more. But lots of players are getting murdered by players who play the game like it's GTA.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Thaatu

[Riem 164]

Cue 'I can see clearly now,' anyone?

In rebuttal, my main complaint on giving bandit type players a sort of penalty mechanic flies in the face of DayZ being about it being what you want it to be, and playing it how you want to. I don't want to see players choosing to cooperate because shooting them makes them hear noises or get the shakes, or any of the various other suggestions that have been offered up. I want to see them team up because the landscape and the zeds are harsh and unforgiving.

I want to see visual cues in how that character moves, how he looks, what he looks like he's doing. I want to have to interpret for myself whether he's a bandit or not. Subtle visual cues need to be how the bandits are recognized from survivors or heroes. It should be left up to each player to decide the course of each encounter, and the outcome. Not the game engine. No benefits to any playstyle, and no disadvantages. You get killed by a bandit? Kill them back. Get a group together, hunt them down. Dance and piss on their corpse! I don't care!

As for what I said earlier about it being harder to survive, those aren't changes to the core concepts of the game, they're going beyond the limitations of DayZ as a mod, and making it into the vision Rocket had. It IS going to be harder to find the high powered sniper rifles bandits are using to kill people with, and it is going to be harder to find ammunition, weapons, food. Zeds are going to make it more difficult, and the whole system's going to feel new and fresh and exciting.

Let the standalone come, then we'll see what needs to be addressed, first. I have a feeling once the hacking/duping is fixed, the game itself is harder, and the abundance of things to do will be increased, that we'll not see so much killing for the sake of killing.

Edited November 10, 2012 by Riem

[Thaatu (DayZ) 0]

Wounds are in, bleeding is in, fractured bones are in, concussions are in, even fever is is. Physical damage is a big part of the game. Mental damage on the other hand is not represented in in any other way than as the ambient music, which most probably turn off anyway. True, DayZ is at the moment at its alpha version and the stand alone will probably change things drastically. That is exactly why I'm suggesting this and abusing the MultiQuote-button so much. :blush: It is still an alpha because Rocket wants feedback and suggestions.

If mental damage is not included in the game, it misses out on a huge opportunity. It would be fairly easy to implement even with the current humanity system and as I said before, mental health is a big part of survival horror. Just as long as it doesn't go to "Amnesia: The Dark Descent" -levels, because that would scare away a whole lot of players. Just subtle changes that wouldn't affect how players fight each other.

I would actually redo some things in humanity-scoring. Any killing should reduce humanity, even zombies, but only slightly. That way mental damage would be a concern for everyone. The humanity max and min should be tweaked accordingly. Also the new "combat mode" could be used in this. If you kill someone who isn't in "combat mode", you get a multiplier to humanity loss. It can be assumed that the victim was either unaware of you, unarmed or was hesitating to shoot. I'm not sure about banditry showing on the outside, unless the player wants to. It would have to be worked on very carefully, so as to not to go overboard with it. The bandit texture is pretty distinct, but has mostly just lowered realism and, I guess, player freedom. It doesn't really offer an alternative to killing. I don't want the game to be black and white, but just really subtle shades of grey.

That being said, there is no reason not to shoot people. That should be looked into and there are realistic and reasonable ways to mend it, without infringing on anyone's freedoms. And again, I'm trying to suggest something that would enhance the immersion and the thriller aspect of the game and provide a downside to mindless killing, one which exists in reality. And no, I'm not trying to "avenge" my two deaths. Every suggestion like this has been attacked by the same argument: "Your just butt hurt because you suck at the game...". Players who say that probably resist every suggestion which hampers their gaming style and just want the game to stay as an alpha mod.

I apologise for these long posts. It must be annoying to argue against these. I just hope that before we all get tired and let this thread be buried, someone of importance sees it and consideres all the points made here. Whatever is decided I'll enjoy the game as the devs want it to be.

[starwarsfan@gmx.de 450]

What you seem to fail to realise is that physical damage is the same with each and every person. No matter who I shoot in the leg, they'll bleed and hurt. But psycology is no where near that simple. Not every person that shoots someone feels remorse or even feels bad about it. Psycological reactions cannot be realisticly simulated nor even can it be represented in anyway authentic, because no two persons have the same state of mind.

For example I would never shoot another person without having a damn good reason. But I also don't leave my garbage on the street either but a lot of people do. You really can't compare it with a physical reaction.

Besides, if there was such a feature to be implemented Heroes should be more affected by it than 'Bandits'. When you're a Bandit you've decided to leave your humanity behind and adapt to this new world so there is no place for feeling remorse. Heroes on the other hand would suffer greatly from every person they kill, because they cling to their humanity and that is what keeps them going so when they have to act in contrast to that they'd have to suffer greatly for that. So in the end you'd be punishing Heroes more than Bandits.

- My two cents

[hoik 415]

Ashwood has hit the nail on the head - a game/computer can not judge morality without making massive assumptions, and reducing a complex emotional reaction into a simple (and probably mundane/cliche) set of out comes.

Let the game deal with the physical and logical actions of the players (like Ashwoods bullet example) - then provide the players with tools that allows them to enact their judgement of right and wrong upon the other players of the game.

Hope that makes sense :) .

[Thaatu (DayZ) 0]

Should the ambient music be removed then? It makes assumptions of the character's state of mind. Still it has been intentionally added to provide a frame of reference for the stress of the character. Mentality is not universal, but neither are physical attributes. Some people are stronger, can handle pain better, have stronger bones, etc. Skills aren't universal also, but the game makes lots of assumptions on those. Everyone can perform a blood transfusion or repair a helicopter engine. I wouldn't say making mental health a universalised issue would be that far off from what we have now. I still don't believe effects that relate to how players view one another deter players from summarily killing each other. Matters of conscience are the best deterrents, but those don't exist yet in virtual reality.

[mr_chabowski@live.co.uk 2416]

ambient music = off

[Riem 164]

Wait.

We have ambient music?

[Thaatu (DayZ) 0]

Seven days later, two belittling comments. I'm surprised that those comments are not even aimed at me, but at the game. Rocket implemented ambient music for a reason. The sad thing is that apparently most people just turn it off so that it doesn't affect their "combat readiness". The general trend seems to be that everything that has a negative effect on combat readiness is going to be opposed.

Anyway, after eight days the suggestion is opposed seven to eight with me counting as the only supporter, so I think this thread can be buried. I hope someone will get some ideas from this. I hope that at least some of those who read this, especially new players, will leave ambient music on. It adds a lot into the game and the dev didn't add it by accident.

Edited November 18, 2012 by Thaatu

[dgeesio 1034]

why does everyone want to limit possibilities in videogames ?

worst idea ever .

[Faceman Peck 93]

Your just butt hurt because you suck at the game and in the above post you admit to shooting on site. I on the other hand having ten years playing on this engine and having the skill set that comes with age, can use my mic to open a dialogue with survivors and/or bandits. At this point its easy to disarm them if you have the drop then invite them to teamspeak, become friends and form an active squad. Yes you may get killed trying but its better than the "If you cant beat them, join them" attitude you have adopted.

you are talking a lot of smack dude; sucking at this game has nothing to do with whether you kill on sight. And killing on sight has nothing to do with skill sets that come from understanding game engines. Your logic is non existent and it makes you sound like an idiot. Clearly someone has a problem with kos and bandits and got a little emo :rolleyes:

Edited November 18, 2012 by Faceman Peck

[krihelion 175]

sounds really stupid

[Brittanica 26]

What you seem to fail to realise is that physical damage is the same with each and every person. No matter who I shoot in the leg, they'll bleed and hurt. But psycology is no where near that simple. Not every person that shoots someone feels remorse or even feels bad about it. Psycological reactions cannot be realisticly simulated nor even can it be represented in anyway authentic, because no two persons have the same state of mind.

For example I would never shoot another person without having a damn good reason. But I also don't leave my garbage on the street either but a lot of people do. You really can't compare it with a physical reaction.

Besides, if there was such a feature to be implemented Heroes should be more affected by it than 'Bandits'. When you're a Bandit you've decided to leave your humanity behind and adapt to this new world so there is no place for feeling remorse. Heroes on the other hand would suffer greatly from every person they kill, because they cling to their humanity and that is what keeps them going so when they have to act in contrast to that they'd have to suffer greatly for that. So in the end you'd be punishing Heroes more than Bandits.

- My two cents

Well said, but I like to think otherwise.

http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/107120-the-moral-compass/

[Bludy 324]

and there is the fucking double tapping ''ctrl'' to put down that rifle