SmashT

The only solution I've seen you offer is to not do anything which really isn't a solution at all as it doesn't address the current problems with third person (acknowledged as problems by the developers). You haven't been offensive but repeating "Choice is good" etc 30+ times certainly doesn't add anything to the discussion.

You haven't really offered anything to the debate other than parroting one liners. We know third person isn't going to be removed and we know they already have a proposal/plan for eliminating the worst offending issues with third person. Nobody is going to take your choice of first person or third person away but they are both going to be improved. We have already had the introduction of an FOV slider as that was a major complaint with first person and the devs are proposing changes to third person that eliminate issues detrimental to gameplay. People have an opportunity here to discuss/debate the current proposal from the devs or suggest alternatives (some ideas have already been picked up by them and are being looked at) but instead most people are just quarrelling over whether they prefer first or third person. :/

If you disagree with someone on some point, please do not resort to name calling or personal attacks, rather argue the merits of their points. This isn't a playground. You don't have to call people names to get your point across.

Third person view isn't being removed, that's been made pretty clear. The devs have plans to change how third person view works to allow it's legitimate uses while limiting the current exploits associated with it, how they go about that is the question.

I definitely don't consider it cheating, looking around/over walls is certainly exploiting the third person mechanic though and has already been acknowledged as a problem by the developers (See first post). Arguing with each other over their personal viewpoints with the current implementation is an exercise in futility though and like most such debates, they rarely result in anyone involved changing his or her point of view. Thankfully, the game isn't being developed by committee. It would be good if we could discuss possible compromise/solutions instead of arguing over the current implementation given that the developers already have some plans to change it.

Insulting people that don't share your viewpoint doesn't help your argument.

They want to continue using the exploits, that's the primary reason they use third person. It's the primary reason I use it too due to the advantage it gives you :)

I actually think the lower/fixed over the shoulder cam and first person when prone ideas are pretty solid, forcing first person when in combat though not so much.

or through a brick wall, or over rooftop, around a corner without peaking over....

It doesn't solve the issue at all. Most people switch to first person when in combat/shooting anyway, it's prior to being in combat that is the problem with people observing everything from complete safety.

2017 could have potential as a post-apoc survival horror mod. It's not DayZ though, they have gone their own direction. http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?162013-2017-Official-Announcement!

Dicks everywhere!

The DayZ team is expanding quite a lot, so much so that they are moving to a larger office next week (which they have already outgrown). Personally I think it's pretty doubtful that none of those new staff are from the ArmA 3 team - probably just trying to avoid a situation with the ArmA community getting upset because the campaign and other stuff still isn't done yet team members are being moved to other projects. Comparatively I expect the ArmA team to always be much larger (100-150 vs 20-30 for DayZ currently) but I don't believe for a second that nobody will be moved around after release.

Rocket: It's a great idea, I like it. There are many things needed to change the action menu and ease these problems - this combined with other improvements will do a great deal to make the game less annoying and glitchy. Solutions like this do require alot of asset changes tho [source] I really hope they consider this, action menu in ArmA/DayZ is terrible. I expect they could do something similar for ladders too.

Personally I'm not a fan of the not rending characters out of your FOV/LOS idea, it would seem really wierd being able to see around/over walls etc but having everyone on the other side invisible to you and would probably give you a false sense of safety. Sounds like it may have an impact on performance too, having to constantly determine if players are visible to each other (which could also vary depending on their FOV settings) Rocket did however reply to another suggestion (which is quite similar to some made in this topic) "This sounds like a good idea to me. Ill look at it more tomorrow when back from germany" http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/1kzy02/sa_gamescom_gameplay_with_rocket_gamestar_10min/cbuwqc6

A context sensitive approach would make the most sense, do you have a shovel equipped? There may be some cases where a menu is needed but it's definitely not for doors/ladders.

It removes the need for the action menu completely and frees up the mousewheel for other uses (like incremental door opening etc) No idea why an action menu still even exists in the SA for doors/ladders etc tbh. Also allows you to choose which seat/position you want in a car without the need for a menu too.

Rocket elaborated on the subject a bit today after touching on it in one of the Gamescom interviews here We're still toying with what to do with first person/third person, we have a few plans around that. Whether we do context sensitive and force players to not use third person in certain situations for example maybe when you go prone on the ground the camera moves in really close or forces you into first person. However, sometimes you are running around and you want to be in third person because it's just a good way to see your character and what's going on. Q: I really dig the idea that if you prone, the camera goes into first person. It's logical and stops something that's been a bane to the ARMA series, also crouching could zoom in / go over shoulder a bit. It's going to be hard to get it right, but I really want us to try. I find I am using third person alot in DayZ SA while running long distances, or to "check" my character (like to see where I am shot to check direction of firer), but then third person is so exploitable in prone. So we are going to try both forcing first for prone, and the "sucking camera in close" and see which works best. Agree too, crouching would really benefit from a more "over the shoulder", we'll try that and put some previs up for people to comment on. [source] Q: Third person can still be used to look behind corners and over walls while standing.. I'm comfortable that enough rational has been established for the absolute and complete removal of third person from the standalone. I also believe that third person allowed servers, by virtue of demand, are more popular in the mod than first person ones. I think that it has been demonstrated that there is a "problem" with the allowance of third person, and the proposed solution is the best I can come up with. It's not perfect, but if we just allow servers to turn it on/off then I think demand will dictate that people gravitate to 'third person allowed" servers - despite them acknowledging the exploits. This is a long winded way of saying, so what do you suggest given the evidence at hand? [source] Q: What about yanking people out of third person when they get close to objects like trees, bushes, rocks, cars, trash piles, walls, buildings, etc From a technical standpoint, this is very nasty because its going to either involve constantly polling for nearby objects and possibly raycasting also. It will have to be done serverside, adding to the poor servers increasing load. It will also result in a massive array of false positives and false negatives - as many map objects have no "object" status and are thus... not real objects to the game. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach at the minimum, at the maximum I'm proposing we put some context related limitations to 3rd person. Stance is easy to poll, and can actually be controlled in animation. [source] Q: Why compromise and allow the exploit, why not remove third person all together? Because I can see (and employ myself) many legitimate uses of 3rd person. The servers are also far more popular than 1st person ones. What I'm doing is acknowledging the problem, acknowledging that server-demand will drive in favor of third-person allowed servers, and proposing a compromise that perhaps eliminates the worst of the offending, at the very least taking the edges off it. In short, because removal of a feature should not be taken lightly, and I'm just not convinced we should remove 3rd person at the game level. [source] Q: I'm curious about what you think third person adds to the game. I find it gives me a sense of my character, especially when running long distances. As stonedlemming noted: it gives you an excellent idea where you are bleeding from. This is particularly relevant with standalone where the particle source is bound directly onto the mesh in the exact position you were hit. During an interview I used this to realize where someone shot me from, and I then killed them. Overall, perhaps it's just my intuition that I just don't feel convinced yet that deleting the feature at the game level is the best solution. Players choose third person servers, and I don't think they are all choosing that so they can cheat. I found I hardly ever used third person in the mod but I am using it very regularly to check my character for many things in the SA, especially because of the range of different clothing. [source] Q: I feel like all of that can be accomplished in first person using freelook, especially hit location... Tried the free look thing. It doesn't work. You can't see most of your body. You can't see your back, butt, in fact your whole back of body and the sides. Even when i used TrackIR not only could I not see most, but it was unnecessarily irritating. My friend was shot in the ass, he knew he was shot in the ass, and he knew exactly where he was shot. I'm not pulling all this from thin air, I felt like I really tried to consider all sides of this. And I'm just not convinced that removing it at the game level is the way to go. I think that the compromise will solve the worst of the offending. [source]

They aren't enterable yet (well apart from the lift shaft) but they will be totally opened up. http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/138121-bikeman-june-2013-interviewlivestream-with-rocket/ They've talked about it a few times now actually but I cbf looking for the other interviews/comments.

You missed the one about automatically changing the camera mode based on what you are doing (running - camera pulls back behind you in third person, stop and it pulls back into first person etc, maybe something inbetween if you are jogging) http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/145895-first-vs-third-person-discussion-dslyecxi-video/?view=findpost&p=1446569

Personally I think a locked shoulder cam is the best option, have it switchable in the options so players can choose which side they want it on possibly. As long as people can't tilt it around/over objects it will eliminate most of the issues people have with third person.

I prefer third person when moving around and first when in combat, third person isn't the problem though and it doesn't need to be removed. The exploits associated with it however do need to be fixed from a gameplay/balance standpoint (looking around walls, over ledges/walls from complete safety) Does anyone have any valid reasons why those exploits should be kept? So far I haven't seen any other then people want to continue using it as a crutch. I think people are asking the wrong questions tbh, it's not "should third person be removed" but "how can we improve third person gameplay/balance wise and limit it's exploits."

The other idea which I think Rocket touched on is having the camera mode change depending on what you are doing, so for example if you are running (and have third person enabled) the camera basically pulls back behind your character and then when you stop it moves back into first person. If you want to get an idea how this would work, something similar actually already happens in ArmA/DayZ mod when you move through a doorway into a small building like those small industrial shacks (it doesn't go all the way back to first person but you get the idea)

How so? The only real difference between them would be that you can see your character in third person and can't n first person as well as mostly removing the third person exploits of looking over walls etc. It would actually make them much more balanced.

I think a good compromise would be to lock the camera position behind your character in third person - not allowing you to angle it over/around walls using freelook etc and keeping the camera close enough to your body that it can't be exploited much even with a relatively high FOV.