Fraggle (DayZ)

Looks good chaps! And KOS, that really made me chuckle.

I'm locking this for now to focus the discussion here: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/145895-first-vs-third-person-discussion-dslyecxi-video/ I would merge but that just gets messy.

As soon as someone can explain to me why being able to bend their vision around corners, over walls and through windows is a good thing for gameplay then I'll be able to take them seriously. Nobody has done that yet. Just saying "it's ok cus everyone can do it" is not a good reason and doesn't explain why they think it's a good thing in terms of gameplay or adds to the game in any way. Choice: It's what makes fat kids fatter.

Stop trolling me lol

Nope. If somebody's in a building using 3rd person cam to scope out a street I have no way of knowing. There is literally nothing I can do, I just have to accept that behind every window in the game and on every roof there could be an invisible sniper because the gameplay mechanic is broken. Sure next time around I could be that guy but you're blind if you can't see how that's detrimental to gameplay. Just admit you like having magical eyes because it makes you feel safe :thumbsup: Despite it being that broken some don't even want to see it fixed :/ Crazy.

That's cool then. So you're not against it being refined or do you like being able to look round corners without any risk to yourself? Because for me that's a big issue in a game primarily about risk/reward. If you genuinely like that as a feature then that's cool but just say it! I honestly feel that some of the peeps that don't even want it refined are scraping around for ways to say they want it to stay without just speaking the truth which is that they like the feeling of security it gives them. I have friends that play who's whole play-style involves using 3rd person cam to detect threats or scout positions etc . The feature is there so they used it, now it's become a crutch and nobody likes their crutches being kicked out from under them.

Finally. Some people with imaginations.

Yup. Moved to.... General discussion I guess :/

Yeh you do mention that a bit. The thing is IMO you're only partially right. If true choice was indeed the way forward there'd be no point in them even attempting to make a game, they'd just say: "well there's a computer, it has infinite possibilities so knock yourself out!" Making a game is about good design and good design is as much about choosing what to omit from that design as it about what to include, more so in fact. We rely in them as game designers to create a world/experience we want to be a part of, that's thier job and an important part of that job is actually limiting our choices in certain ways. Games that try to please everyone all of the time usually fail because it's only by trying to focus the actual experience that you can make something truly worth playing. If I go to a Chinese restaurant and see burgers and pizza on the menu then I'd leave. Why would I do that if choice is always a good thing? Well because I went there for Chinese food and I'm relying on the restaurant owners knowledge and experience to offer me a good menu. I want a menu with with choice but I'm also relying on the owners knowledge to refine my choice which will result in a better experience for me. In fact an overly large menu is usually the sign of a bad restaurant because it displays lack of focus and/or confidence in what they're serving.

It kind of feels inevitable tbh. I had a quick fly around Altis yesterday and it really is stunning with great attention to detail. I've got a feeling that months from now I'll still be discovering some of it's secrets. I have no idea if there will ever be an "official" version of the mod using either that map or that engine because really, that is the purpose if the SA (to take the concept of the mod and run with it) but knowing how awesome and creative the BIS modding community is it doesn't really matter because over the next year or more we're going to be seeing some pretty epic stuff. BIS have provided the modders with the tools they need and now it's just a case of sitting back and seeing what they're able to do with it .

Not always, please refer to the fat kid analogy a few pages back.

For anyone that missed it here's Deans recent thought's on the 1st vs 3rd debate: Q: What about first/third person?We're still toying with what to do with first person/third person, we have a few plans around that. Whether we do context sensitive and force players to not use third person in certain situations for example maybe when you go prone on the ground the camera moves in really close or forces you into first person. However, sometimes you are running around and you want to be in third person because it's just a good way to see your character and what's going on. Q: I really dig the idea that if you prone, the camera goes into first person. It's logical and stops something that's been a bane to the ARMA series, also crouching could zoom in / go over shoulder a bit.It's going to be hard to get it right, but I really want us to try. I find I am using third person alot in DayZ SA while running long distances, or to "check" my character (like to see where I am shot to check direction of firer), but then third person is so exploitable in prone. So we are going to try both forcing first for prone, and the "sucking camera in close" and see which works best.Agree too, crouching would really benefit from a more "over the shoulder", we'll try that and put some previs up for people to comment on. Q: Third person can still be used to look behind corners and over walls while standing.. I'm comfortable that enough rational has been established for the absolute and complete removal of third person from the standalone. I also believe that third person allowed servers, by virtue of demand, are more popular in the mod than first person ones. I think that it has been demonstrated that there is a "problem" with the allowance of third person, and the proposed solution is the best I can come up with. It's not perfect, but if we just allow servers to turn it on/off then I think demand will dictate that people gravitate to 'third person allowed" servers - despite them acknowledging the exploits.This is a long winded way of saying, so what do you suggest given the evidence at hand? Q: What about yanking people out of third person when they get close to objects like trees, bushes, rocks, cars, trash piles, walls, buildings, etcFrom a technical standpoint, this is very nasty because its going to either involve constantly polling for nearby objects and possibly raycasting also. It will have to be done serverside, adding to the poor servers increasing load. It will also result in a massive array of false positives and false negatives - as many map objects have no "object" status and are thus... not real objects to the game. I'm taking a wait-and-see approach at the minimum, at the maximum I'm proposing we put some context related limitations to 3rd person. Stance is easy to poll, and can actually be controlled in animation. Q: Why compromise and allow the exploit, why not remove third person all together?Because I can see (and employ myself) many legitimate uses of 3rd person. The servers are also far more popular than 1st person ones. What I'm doing is acknowledging the problem, acknowledging that server-demand will drive in favor of third-person allowed servers, and proposing a compromise that perhaps eliminates the worst of the offending, at the very least taking the edges off it. In short, because removal of a feature should not be taken lightly, and I'm just not convinced we should remove 3rd person at the game level. Q: I'm curious about what you think third person adds to the game. I find it gives me a sense of my character, especially when running long distances. As stonedlemming noted: it gives you an excellent idea where you are bleeding from. This is particularly relevant with standalone where the particle source is bound directly onto the mesh in the exact position you were hit. During an interview I used this to realize where someone shot me from, and I then killed them. Overall, perhaps it's just my intuition that I just don't feel convinced yet that deleting the feature at the game level is the best solution. Players choose third person servers, and I don't think they are all choosing that so they can cheat. I found I hardly ever used third person in the mod but I am using it very regularly to check my character for many things in the SA, especially because of the range of different clothing. Q: I feel like all of that can be accomplished in first person using freelook, especially hit location...Tried the free look thing. It doesn't work. You can't see most of your body. You can't see your back, butt, in fact your whole back of body and the sides. Even when i used TrackIR not only could I not see most, but it was unnecessarily irritating. My friend was shot in the ass, he knew he was shot in the ass, and he knew exactly where he was shot. I'm not pulling all this from thin air, I felt like I really tried to consider all sides of this. And I'm just not convinced that removing it at the game level is the way to go. I think that the compromise will solve the worst of the offending. Tldr; He likes the 3rd person cam and can see it has a place in the game but he's also very aware of how it can effect gameplay in a negative way so is looking at ways of dealing with that issue.

Hi. Have a browse though the information section, there's been lot's of info recently so it shouldn't take too long to get up to date. Oh, and in short, there is no release date. Look here: http://dayzmod.com/forum/index.php?/topic/144748-august-round-up-devblog-dayzdaily-gamescom/#entry1430426

I wonder who here that fails to see the glaring issues with the current 3rd person cam also plays on servers with nameplates enabled?Using nameplates brings up many of the same issues. Hover your mouse over a bush and watch as your enemies position is magically revealed! But it's OK because we can all do it! Surely people that don't like the nameplates because they can see how they effect gameplay negatively must be able to see why some of us also think the 3rd person camera currently brings up the same issues. I'd be genuinely interested to hear from someone that enjoys using the 3rd person cam to look around corners etc. but considers nameplates detrimental to gameplay because to me they're both as bad as eachother. At least we know nameplates will have no place in the SA so that's a start I guess.

No probs, enjoy.

Yeh agreed. Well the classic Arma2 indoor clunkiness already feels much better in the SA and that seems to be one major gripe with peeps that don't like 1st person view in DayZ. I've been playing Arma 3 a lot recently and the vehicle mirrors really do give the awarness that was missing from Arma 2, not sure if it's something that can be introduced into the SA, I don't see why they wouldn't tbh. Leaning out of windows would be cool too, for a well executed example of a game that does it well check out Euro Truck Simulator 2013. Personally I'm not too fussed about the vehicle side of things though. I do prefer sticking to 1st person cam but my one and only gripe with the 3rd person cam is the way it can be used as an exploit which effects gameplay negatively, even if it's fair because we can all do it.

So surely the best answer is to just refine the 3rd person camera a bit no? That way you can keep your situational awareness but ditch your wizardy eyes.

Hi. Please do not cross-post/spam our forums. Use this thread and only this thread to advertise your server.

*sigh* Yes. Locked.

No because that doesn't involve using magical all-seeing eyeballs.

No lol. To stick with my fat kid analogy (your fault)... I just wouldn't fill my cupboards with crisps, pies and sweets. As a responsible parent I would make sure the choices that are available to him are sensible ones that aren't going to turn him into a bully-magnet at school. Currently in my opinion, the mod has become that bloated kid who's parents don't know when to say no. Server admins have too much choice and the DayZ that many are currently playing is a bloated fatty with a high chance of becoming diabetic. The SA offers the devs a chance to take back control of that experience and refine it. I'd like to see the 3rd person camera refined as part of that process or to labour the analogy a bit more to remove all the shit from the cupboards. Remember that I'm not actually arguing for it (3rd person cam) to be removed, it's HIGHLY unlikely it will be, I would like to see it refined though because I feel that way it works currently is detrimental to gameplay.

Yeh, you might wanna put a tin hat on before jumping in though. Turns out people are very passionate about cameras.

I think you're muddying the water a bit. DayZ as a game is about choice, but it's about the choices we can make within the confines of what we have available as prescribed by the devs. That's what making a game is about. If it was purely about choosing to play any way we like we'd be able to pluck tanks out of the sky and have Humvees with 50cals and nitrous wheelspinning around Cherno Mad Max stylee..

The most popular servers also usually have "donator perks" and other similar stuff. That doesn't mean it's a good thing for the game. Using your logic people also want DayZ to become pay to win, do you think that's the case? I don't.

I think (I may be wrong) that most people would be happy with a fairly simple system, but one that just works well. Personally I wouldn't want to see anything too elaborate, just a a simple satisfying swing with a satisfying crunch would keep me happy.