Whyherro123

1) Seriously? How do you know this? How do you know that "zombie mules" are easier for the devs to implement 2) Restraints and muzzles will not make a zombie "complacent basically". Go up to a meth-tweaker and throw a straightjacket and muzzle on them. Watch as they bite off their tongue and tear all the ligaments in their arms and shoulders. 3) The "zombie lore" doesn't need a revamp. The environment in Day Z is very friendly to human habitation. All the zombies are wearing clothing, and just because we don't see it in-game, doesn't mean they don't (or won't. Remember, zombies are due for a HUGE revamp) take shelter from the weather. Or, eat and drink for that matter. All the "infection" does is destroy higher brain functions, turning the infected into essentially humanoid animals. Are animals stupid? No. Do they take shelter from the elements, and eat and drink? Yes. Just because you don't see it happen, doesn't mean it doesn't, or won't, happen. 4) Because they don't want to eat other humans, necessarily? All they do is chase you down and beat the shit out of you, which they also do to other animals. In the mod, they ate player corpses, but I haven't seen anything that suggests they do so in the standalone. Besides, the "zombies", much like the humans they once were, are predators. Actual, real-life predators don't randomly and needlessly attack other animals. They don't want to get hurt. Or, like wolves, hyenas, or humans, the "zombies" are a "social species", and work together, or at least, refuse to attack each other, when they don't have to. 5) Yes, chemical/physical lobotomies are the way to go! /sarcasm. Disgusting, your disregard for your fellow man. Next time you see your neighbor, imagine driving an icepick through his eyesocket, for a small convenience of not having to carry some equipment. I find the "zombies" to be the most frightening, and conversely, the most heartbreaking aspect of this game, and the sheer callousness players have when talking about them suggests to me that 1) you are both unable to see yourself in your characters shoes and metagame constantly and 2) have at the least a limited sense of empathy. Next time you are in-game, don't picture the zombies as "zombies", a faceless, mindless threat only worthy of destruction. Instead, imagine them as that neighbor from down the street, that cute girl that worked in that store you always visited, or even your parent/sibling/child. They never wanted to be sick, never deserved any of this. Now, they aren't even in control of their own actions anymore, and people use them as lobotomized pack mules/attack dogs for shits and giggles. Who is the monster, here?

Due to the "zombies" actually being alive, we can safely assume that they are, in fact, eating, drinking, and sleeping. Just "off screen", as it were. We don't see them (though it is eminently possible with future builds) due to game limitations. Remember, they don't have "higher brain functions", but this doesn't mean they are stupid. Think of them like humanoid animals. Animals drink, eat and sleep, many times without you seeing them. Does this mean they don't do these things? No. They just don't so them where they "live", just like many real-life animals. Many animals have different spots for eating, drinking, sleeping, and pooping. They might actually be smarter than many humans in this respect. At least deer don't shit in the same water they drink.

Eat raw meat, lean (meaning all fat removed) and fresh from the carcass, and there will be little (note that I didn't say none) bacterial contamination. Hell, you can, and many hunters do (and not just in "primitive" societies, either), eat "organ meats" (the liver, the kidneys, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offal)as well as the bone marrow (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bone_marrow_%28food%29) raw, in the field. It is actually really tasty. If anything, the above is what you should be eating off an animal, instead of the lean muscle meat. Organ meats and marrow are high in fat, in nutrients, everything you need to survive, whereas "lean" meat is not. Eat raw meat of a carcass that has been sitting there, or raw meat that has been "out and about" for a few days? Yeah, you are likely to get sick. Eat some meat raw from a nice, freshly-killed animal? Tasty, healthy goodness. The "food value" (calories, fat, nutrients, etc) of all food is degraded via heat. The more you cook food, the less you get out of it. I boil all my foods and drink the resulting broth, in order to get as much "value" from the food as possible. In reality, roasting food over a fire, or frying it in a pan is really wasteful. Boil everything, eat everything and drink all the broth, and eat anything raw you can, with the exception of starches.

Some (read: many) of the survival mechanics included by the devs make me wonder. As someone skilled in wilderness survival, they either 1) don't make sense, and/or 2) Are 100% incorrect Take, for example, worms. Worms, as you describe, are perfectly safe to eat. Full of protein (more than most insects, which in and of themselves are better than most "meat" we recognize as such), and gatherable quite easily. I, and most survival guides, recommend that you allow them to "purge themselves" before eating, but this is because they effectively store dirt and such in their digestive tracts, and this junk can irritate your insides, but they aren't poisonous. At least, common earthworms aren't, which are the ones we find in-game. Also, human beings can totally eat raw meat. The reason most people get sick when they eat undercooked meat is not (usually) due to micro-organisms or food-poisoning, but merely the body reacting to an unfamiliar food. The same thing happens when you eat something radically different from your usual diet (food from a different culture, heavily spiced food vs bland, or even a vegetarian eating meat). The body essentially goes "WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS!? :o " and tries to get rid of it. Over time, as your body "gets used" to the new food, you can eat it with no problem

Why wouldn't pepper spray work on someone, or on an infected? Have you been pepper-sprayed before? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray It causes your eyes and mucous membranes to swell and causes temporary blindness. The pain related to this is "secondary". Your eyes swell shut, and you leak mucus from your nose and throat for a LONG time. If anything, pepper spray would be a more effective incapacitant than a stun baton. At least with pepper spray, they can stumble under their own power. Nothing in there about not working on infected. They might ignore the pain, but if they can't see or smell you, they are effectively helpless.

1) If you are going to use a term, you probably should know the "real" meaning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortification 2) Enjoy your waste of time, energy and materials. For every "empty base" you build, you could be doing something worthwhile, and meanwhile, people are up in your main base, a'lootin as they go. Air forces make bases even more obsolete than they already are, just through observation and the ability to move forces rapidly. Not even touching armed air vehicles. At least with ground vehicles, they have to move in the same dimensions as you, and are pretty much limited to roads and such. No such restrictions on air vehicles. 3) You don't "have everything". You can never "have everything you need, or even want". Everything degrades, gets used, etc. Your situation of having "everything you need except for airplane parts" is little more than a pipe dream. Say, for example, you are your clans supporter of aircraft. At a clan meeting, you propose using some of your ethanol to fuel a small plane, as you have enough to fuel everything you need, as well as a small surplus. You: Think of the strategic bonus of having an aircraft, you guys! #1: Well, we really need to keep surplus fuel for our trucks. With all the patrolling we have been doing, we burn up most of the supply. #2: And our generators. Need those to keep the lights on, and keep the workshops moving. You: so, how about we distill more ethanol? #3: Not that simple. We need to grow more corn, which means we need to clear more ground. #4: Doesn't Settlement -X- down the road want more food in return for truck parts? Why don't we just expand our fields? #3: Again, not that simple. Our clan doesn't have the manpower to do it alone, and Settlement -Y- refuses to send us any more laborers until we wire them more electricity You: so how about we trade for a tractor? That can both clear more ground and plant more corn. Plus take some of the load of the laborers from Settlement -X- #3 : Too expensive. Plus, we need those laborers to work the shops. And we need to protect Settlement -Y- as well, in return for labor, so we can't exactly piss them off. Clan Leader: alright, running a plane right now isn't feasible. We need to work on the economy. 4) Fire is humanities greatest weapon. We have a special relationship. Fireteam, firefight, firefighter, the flames of war, the fires of passion. Fire fuels the electric heart of our cities, pumps along the asphalt veins of our nations. It keeps us warm, keeps us fed, keeps us healthy, and keeps us safe. With fire, we managed to push back the darkness at the dawn of time, and, with the torch of knowledge, wrest control of the planet. With fire, we are gods. Who can't love fire? As an aside, it has been established, many times, that the "zombies" in-game are not "classical, Night of the Living Dead" flesheaters, risen from the grave magically. They are just people infected with a disease that destroys higher brain functions. As such, while they might be stronger and more resistant to pain than "normal" humans, they can be killed by anything that would kill a normal human, suffocation included. I also support the idea that "the infection" and therefore, "the zombie apocalypse", is not, in fact, worldwide in distribution. Instead, Chernarus is subject to a quarantine by US, UN, and RU troops. Nobody can leave, nobody can go in, and the outside forces wait for there to be no signs of life (players and "zombies") before sweeping in to make sure the site of outbreak is clean. This can be supported by the fact that the towns and cities look relatively time-worn and damaged, while the crashed helicopters are still burning and smoking. This is due to the regular patrols by the Special Forces of the above armies. They fly over the countryside, checking out the terrain to see how many "infected" are still alive. Some of them crash, or get shot down, and never get retrieved (quarantine, remember?). 5) As for the video, the fact that the guy isn't living in some settlement somewhere, "selling" his experience with machinery and mechanics, as opposed to flying randomly around the blasted, post-nuclear, post-Peak Oil wasteland, doesn't make sense to me. I get it, the guy is/was some sort of merchant, but he could undoubtedly make more "money" working for some settlement somewhere, as well as have increased security, better food, etc etc etc

1) "second line of defense". Sure, a blockhouse/bunker with gunslits and MGs will suppress an attacking force, until a soldier comes up on a blind spot and slips a grenade or incendiary into it. Or, you know, goes around it. Static defenses have been obsolete since WW1 at the very least, and the US Civil War more likely. 2) sure, you could lock up some doors inside a building, or place some traps. But all you are doing is delaying its capture. The second an attacking force realizes something is blocking their way, they will realize that there is something in there you want to protect. Enjoy having your doors kicked in, the traps blown up. Or hell, if they want to be dicks about it and deny you the resource (or not waste the time assaulting a fixed position), they could just set the whole building on fire. Not that difficult with Molotovs and jellied gasoline. (which, incidentally, is much more effective usuage for gasoline, as opposed to wasting it on aircraft.) So much for the "second line of defense". 3) If they get an excess of material, they trade it with other groups for their excess. You know, trade? What happens in real life, and happened all the way back into the Neolithic (Intercontinental trade routes, back when we had stone tools and leather clothing, who-da-thunk?). Make alliances, military defense pacts, organized militias, industries, the whole shebang. All the zombies? You mean those things that run straight at you? Shit, remember the "jellied gasoline" I mentioned earlier? Pour it down a road, attract the zombies, and set it on fire. If they don't get killed by the heat, they will suffocate due to the flames sucking all the oxygen out of the air. Plus, the developers themselves have states that "zombies are not, and never will be, the real danger". Sad, but unfortunately true. They will never exist in such a state as to completely eliminate organized resistance. 50, or hell, even 5 zombies against a single survivor? Point one for the zombies. 500 zombies against 15 guys with rifles? No contest. 5000 zombies (HAHA) against 50 guys with rifles, MGs, a mortar, and a truckload of ammo? Baby, the party is just getting started. 5) Wow, way to abandon your mates just as the going got tough. When you land, and go into a small community for gas and food, the people are going to ask where you came from. You have 3 opportunities here: 1- They were allied with your clan, and are pissed that you abandoned their people to die so you could escape. 2- They are allied with the enemies, and take you prisoner to hand over to the enemies. 3- They are neutral, and probably hand you over to the enemies for a reward. Or, they just kill you, for (maybe, but they don't know that) leading the enemy right to them. Great plan, genius.

19 out of the 27 people who actually bothered to vote selected, not 70% of the forum. Right now, you don't have the statistical density required to have a margin of error, much less make claims about what a proportion of the forum thinks is a good idea. Once again, lrn2statistics. 1) If your base is hidden, why is it fortified? Waste of time, energy and materials. 2) If your base is fortified, it most definitely isn't hidden. 3) Not every group is going to have a fortified (-snort-), hidden (also -snort-) base filled with weapons, ammo, and a fleet of ground vehicles. In fact, I am willing to bet that 99% of the group is going to lack those things. A base, yes. Not oodles and oodles of supplies. 4) "It's not too difficult to fly a plane, nor to fix it if you have the materials". HAHAHA, oh man, you have no idea how complicated modern machinery is, right, nor the level of international/intercontinental logistics required to support said machinery. Where are you getting your fuel, your oil, your hydraulic fluid, your replacement avionics, your replacement wires, rubber, etc etc etc? 4) "When do you want to move on to bigger and better things". Sure I do, whatever-your-name-is, but I want to bring back civilization first: trade agreements, trade routes, various industries, not commit highly elaborate suicide by attempting to fix up some plane in a po'dunk workshop and learning to fly it in my very-limited spare time. 5) Constructing a fortified base around an airstrip is not "the only way to compete with the organized bandits". In fact, said organized bandits would probably sit 2 kilometers off, bombing the shit out of your airstrip with improvised mortars (have fun taking off when your airstrip is full of holes!), and laying siege to your compound ( hint: when you are starving to death, and so sick you can barely stand, tell me how you will go fly that plane out of the bombed-out compound?) No, the way to compete with the organized bandits is to organize harder. They bring in squads, you bring in platoons. They surround your compound, you summon your allies from another compound to take them in the flank. They bring in truckloads of ammo, you work on building up industries and trade routes so you can make all the ammo you need. Not "attempt to fix up a derelict aircraft and hope you can learn how to fly it". How back would your clan feel if you fixed up a plane, filled it with supplies, and tried to take off for an allied compound, only to misjudge the take-off, clip the tarmac with a wing, and scatter burning fuel across half your base? Or, how would said allied compound feel if you led an enemy clan directly to their base? Airplanes are not that difficult to track, especially if they are small craft (AKA stay relatively close to the ground), and require special places to land, be services, and take off. -sees an airplane flying low, to the west. Hmm (pulls out map and radio)- -well boys, we got a plane loaded with cargo, 2 trucks to the NWAF, 1 truck travel west along the Northern Highway, and 1 truck head down to Zeleno. Keep in radio contact the whole time, and we will figure out where this bastard is going-

As Grimey Rick said : "This thread again?" 1) This is a truly horrid poll. No "control group", as in, you can't vote for "no/no aircraft". The only thing we can do is vote for your choices, which deliberately skews the results. I, for one, am not going to vote, and I am sure others as well. Lrn2statistics 2) As it has been said, in this thread and in others: having aircraft changes the scope of the game dramatically. Even a small aircraft changes the game from "hardcore survival game" to "Arma II/III Lite", when you are capable of screaming overhead an enemy base at 300 meters over the ground and 200 kph. With an ultralight, you can scout out enemy bases, hover overhead a town and call out enemy movement, etc. With an aircraft capable of carrying people, you essentially just became paratroopers/air assault soldiers. Not Survivors. Really, the only groups capable of funding an aircraft of "effective" size (that is, a helicopter or a small plane), would be already bordering on city-state size, what with the need for surpluses of food, fuel (and oil and other fluids), manpower (not only the pilot, but the mechanics as well), science (need to know how weather patterns work, as well as avionics and mechanics), and time. Basically, the only people who would actually need a helicopter would be effectively regional powers. On a 50,100, even 200-person server? There wouldn't be anyone to compete. There goes the game. Nearly all of that is basically beyond the scope and theme of the game. 3) You say that you want aircraft to be able to play with your friends? That they are necessary for larger groups to form? HAHAHAHAHAHA Oh man. You do realize that the game, and the playerbase, doesn't really care about you playing with your friends? The Mod had a smaller map than the Standalone, and I can already run from corner to corner in 30 minutes. If you don't have 30 minutes to play the game with, not my problem. Find the time, make the time, don't ask for things to break the game with. 4) Aircraft (and ground vehicles, to much less of an extent) make travel trivial. As above, you can run across the map, corner to corner, in about 30 minutes. With V3S's, my clan did a "coastal patrol", as in, driving all the way from Kamenka to Svetlo. It took us 11 minutes, and we got hung up on some stuff along the way. We were able to transport 15 guys, with gear, armament, and food, the-in-game-equivalent-of-~23km, in 11 minutes. That isn't a survival game, that is Arma III. 5) Just because the devs stated there would be air vehicles doesn't mean I am not allowed to argue against them, or disagree with them in general. I disagree with the developers on a LOT of things. Namely, many aspects of survival, and this aircraft mechanic.

I like scalps. Lightweight, easy to make, and much less effort to collect opposed to having to saw off someones skull. Imagine there was a clan where, in order to move up in rank, you had to present the scalps of worthy opponents?

Yeah, the poster who wrote this sounds like a giant, throbbing arsehole. Kid holds the line for you guys, risking his life, and you shoot him in the head, execution-style? Jesus, this is why people turn to KoS after getting KoS!

The thing is: both the type of ecosystem (temperate deciduous forest), as well as the time of year, Day Z takes place in, there is practically no reason to starve. Maybe if you are trying to rely on canned food... As I outlined above, cattail is an excellent food source (equal to farmed potato, if not superior due to not having to grow it), as well as being abundant, easy to gather (AKA use less energy), and multipurpose. If not cattail, then acorns would be available from numerous oak species (pretty high in carbohydrates, but they have to be boiled multiple times to remove tannins. Said tannins can be used to... tan leather), as well as grass seeds (which is effectively primitive wheat), wild roses (which can be found on ocean beaches, etc etc Food is there, and pretty abundant. It just requires work and knowledge. Things some members of the playerbase apparently don't want. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fQMyLZxoXL8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6raxZiiCJo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=deqFF8Gz1LE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwUd-xq0W-E&list=PL3n-_mp3iJeg0upL5F27QFPuqBRySL08n&index=12

Fasting is different from starving in a survival situation. When you fast, you (usually) are not doing heavy labor. In a survival situation, your metabolism is already kickstarted higher than usual, due to fear, adrenaline responses, etc, on top of doing heavy labor; hiking, carrying heavy loads, processing wood, etc. The "average" sedentary male in the US is recommended to eat about 2000-2500 kCal per day. In a survival situation, I recommend you (try to, at least. And it is possible with proper foraging [hint: starchy tubers are your friend!]) eat between 5000-8000 (roughly the same amount eaten by soldiers) kCal, just to keep homeostasis going. https://books.google.com/books?id=CYnM99cLNgYC&pg=PA175&lpg=PA175&dq=caloric+content+of+cattail+tubers&source=bl&ots=s0u_S8Qi85&sig=aJYZHMktRSue2wMnQ9yEbzmQsx4&hl=en&sa=X&ei=ZH5sVbL9HcKHsAWE4YCYBw&ved=0CDwQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=caloric%20content%20of%20cattail%20tubers&f=false In the above link, it is stated that cattail tubers, which is where the starch (everyone knows starch is a complex carbohydrate, AKA "really really awesome", right?) contain about 3670 kCal per kilogram, and it is remarkably easy to get A LOT of cattail tubers. Plus, they tend to grow together in massive clumps. And, I would like to comment on the whole "3 weeks before you starve to death" thing. Yes, in the right conditions (namely, temperate ecosystem [meaning, you have to burn energy to keep warm], with a fire and shelter [sleeping most of the time], and avoiding too much labor), you can live for about three weeks before dying. However, it isn't "in good shape till three weeks, then die", it is more of "slowly go insane due to hallucinations, get a whole slew of diseases (immune system will get shut down due to the body "prioritizing" homestasis), wounds won't heal and get infected (lack energy for healing processes), and be too weak to move". This is why in "real survival", you sleep for literally as much as possible, so your body only has to run at its "basal metabolic rate", that is, the rate of metabolism where you are using as little energy as possible, by doing as little as possible, and avoiding injury as much as much as you can. By running around with heavy loads (hell, just hiking through rough terrain with a load on your pack is highly "expensive"), fighting, and healing from injuries, you burn energy faster (aka have a higher metabolic rate), and thusly, cut that timeframe for survival right down.

And the shockwaves from said impact destroy the tissues as they pass through. They just don't "move out of the way". A devastating would to the limb or the torso might not mean instant death, but in a world without advanced medical care, getting your stomach lining punctured, or bone fragments in the bloodstream is all but a delayed death sentence. Not even considering organ failures and loss of consciousness due to rapid blood pressure decrease, organ failure due to shock, or primary and secondary infections (especially in deep tissues, or inside the bone) A hammer blow to the torso is a good way to rupture all those organs you've got in there. Not to say that a stab wound to the torso isn't deadly, or even "not as deadly", but getting your intestines ruptured, and the corresponding SUPER-infection from all the micro-organisms going wild, is not a pleasant way to die. I would rather get stabbed and bleed out, than take days/weeks of agony to die.

Why do you "have" to kill players to get loot? I am playing experimental right now, which has less loot than the stable branch, and I don't need to kill anyone to get what I need. Food from plants and animals, clothing from animals, weapons from plants (the bow), and I have a rifle with ammo for backup.

NO You are not understanding the central point, here. No matter where you go, no matter what you do, you are not owed ANYTHING. You might be more likely to find a certain type of gear (and I find even that a bit of a stretch), but no certain items in certain places

Yes, soft tissue will absorb quite a it of the impact force of a hammer blow. But that is what makes them so deadly. When the force gets absorbed, what do you think happens? It doesn't just disappear. It destroys the tissue. And while a light knife won't cut through bone, a sword or axe definately will. Hell, a spear will as well, and the edges don't even have to be sharp! Melee weapons should be far more dangerous in general.

No, that is practically 100% the opposite of what the developers are trying to do. They don't want certain buildings to be known as "gun houses", like in your example above, because what will occur (and did) is the players will completely ignore the smaller houses to run to the "bigger" buildings, where "great stuff" spawns. The devs don't want that. And neither do I. Sorry. As for how loot is spawning now, Alpha, and all of its related bugs. Get over it.

Ah, not really. A carpenters hammer to the ribs will result in broken ribs (can't run, hurts to breathe) at the least, and a perforated lung and internal bleeding at worst. This is why a carpenters hammer would be my "go-to melee weapon": easy to find, easy to use, multipurpose, and HIGHLY lethal. I'd rather get stabbed in the stomach with a knife than take a hammer to the gut. The knife would leave a "cleaner" wound, as well as not turn my intestines into paste through shockwaves Don't fuck around with blunt weapons, children.

This. ALL of the this. You aren't "owed" anything in this game. So, you ran for 50 minutes (Which I doubt. I've run from corner to corner before in 30 minutes) to get to an airfield, only to find that it has been looted before you? Too bad, so sad. Guess what? Military bases are some of the most heavily looted areas on the map. Literally every thread complaining about loot starts with "SO I ran to Vybor/NWAF/Balota, and I DIDN'T GET ANYTHING :( :( :( :( " Literally everybody and their mother is zooming to the military bases after a server restart, like flies to fresh shit. Either get there first (by server hopping, which makes you a scrublet and scum in my book), or content yourself with the PLETHORA of other firearms that can be found in almost every other major building across the map. Just because you "worked" to get to the airbase (Hint: I don't really consider 'holding down the W key' working, really) doesn't mean a gun will magically pop from the ground when you get there. Play smart. Learn where other firearms spawn, go kill other players and take theirs, or get all butthurt and leave. Doesn't really matter to me.

Probably between 150-200 meters. I dunno, don't have a rangefinder glued to my face, but you can make out the trunk, legs, and arms of the person, while the facial features are obscured. Also, what is up with that guys posture? Secondly, what does this have to do with entirely-unrealistic-eyeball-zoom?

You can indeed spot things from further away. You cannot, however, magically enhance your vision so you can see things you cannot. Take, for instance, a person at about 150 meters. That person will appear to be about the size of an American 10 cent piece. Could you see them? Yep. Could you see them clearly? Nope Or, look at a building from a respectable distance. You can clearly see it as a building, but you probably can't differentiate between doors, windows, etc,much less someone standing in a window. I would be happy if we had no "zoom" whatsoever, or, after reading it, what Sir Grimey Rick said above. If you want to be able to see things farther away, use binocs, a telescope, or a sight for a firearm.

1) People farm all the time 2) The extreme low levels of loot is a bug. "Alpha" and all that 3) Good. You don't need military weapons to survive. 4) The Standalone IS NOT THE MOD. REPEAT: THE STANDALONE IS NOT THE MOD. Get that out of your head right now. Nor is it a continuation. An improvement/ A shoutout? Yes, but a completely different game nonetheless. The Standalone is a survival game, while the mod is a modification of a military simulator

See, this is my problem with a large part of the Day Z community. Instead of refining or adding in new mechanics like more survival, weapon malfunctions, advanced cooking (recipes), more crafting, foraging, medical, etc, the "suggestions" forum is stuffed full of threads like "ADD THIS GUN", " MAEK MOR CAMO". Like the Sturmgewehr. Chambered in a caliber that literally no other firearm in the game uses (7.92x33mm). No need.

No, the Press Vest is bright "shoot me" blue for a reason, as outlined above. Changing it to some stupid camo color completely eliminates the rationale behind keeping it blue. Besides, you already have various forms of camouflaged vests, don't you? Stop Munchkin-ing.