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Watch the second 4WP link in OP, Outlawled has already implemented one method that this works at long range (>100m). In closer combat, you're still having to expose yourself to get that information. This enables the counter tactic of suppression fire by your opponent. Do you want to pop your head up with bullets pinging around your last known position? When the lead dev says that 3PP is broken and he wants to remove it (but won't because of the 3PP players) I think I'm on the right side of this argument. Also please tell me where I'm suggesting removing player choice... I'm removing an exploitable ability from one of the choices, not removing the choice. I'm not saying they're too stupid to implement it, this whole thread is about discussing ways to keep it as a part of the game design without changing the gameplay. I was talking about disregarding pvp for the purposes of the balance argument. The balance argument is in terms of pve aspects. Since you're trying an ad-hominem with calling me narcissistic and obnoxious, I'll counter with saying that mentioning COD in a discussion about good game design is laughable. There's a reason that COD-kiddie is an insult for FPS players and if anything you're undermining your own argument. It's still entirely possible for players to be completely hidden in 1PP view or have you never heard of concealed sniping? What this would remove is the ability for bad snipers to take up bad observation positions and use an exploit to maintain their awareness without being exposed. It's entirely possible to keep a guy on lookout with a scope in a *good* hidden position and either take shots himself or just feed information to a squad nearby. It's entirely possible to be 99% concealed at closer ranges in 1PP - camoflage and remaining still are your friends, not using 100% concealment and a camera glitch for 360 degree awareness and pseudo-ESP. But yeah if you want killstreaks, spawning with lotsa kewl guns and multiple nades lets go for continuing the COD gameplay aspects in this discussion. 3PP players pretty much have invisible UAVs hovering above them from spawn already so maybe the simplistic gameplay of COD is all that you aspire for in this game. Remind me why there's no 3PP competitive PVP shooters? Oh yeah because full awareness without risk devolves it into a camp-athon where turtling until the other player/team reveals himself is the only winning tactic, a game killing feature (for ranged pvp).

Well out of curiousity I just downloaded the files for the Arma mod we're talking about and looked with a completely uneducated eye at the .sqf file inside. It's less than 200 lines of not very dense code (is that all that you need for this btw? Never did Arma modding myself). Obviously 99% of the coding effort is in knowing how to start those 200 lines and then tweaking them whilst performing certain blood sacrifices and rituals, but now it's been done once, I'd imagine later efforts would be easier to replicate and expand on.

You can move your eyes around your monitor to take in different parts without moving your mouse - so same difference, but yeah we don't have stereoscopic imaging if you're looking at a 2D projection of a 3D world...although it'd be just as feasible to have shutter glasses on with a 3D enabled screen until Rift arrives in a complete form.

Context is actually a very good reason why 1PP on its own isn't a satisfactory solution - it's incredibly difficult to determine how well hidden you are when in cover, far more difficult than it is IRL. Maybe 1PP servers could have an option to pan around yourself in 3PP with all other player models disabled as a fix for this.

He was trying to help. The blurriness is the only way you know you're injured (health not blood level). Sure you can disable it, but then you won't know when you're healing up...so you'll probably just die to the next zombie swipe/player punch instead of actually fixing the problem with your character.

http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/159251-merinos-in-depth-video-guides-updated-jan-7th-how-much-do-i-really-have-to-eat-and-drink/ Check out Merino's other vids to see how to fix it http://forums.dayzgame.com/index.php?/topic/159251-merinos-in-depth-video-guides-updated-jan-7th-how-much-do-i-really-have-to-eat-and-drink/

Grey scale means lost blood...you musta been bleeding, sick, hungry or dehydrated

The timer should take into account whether a player has joined a different server in the meantime: Leaves server A, joins server B, can't rejoin server A til timer's finished on that server. Otherwise it punishes players that might have an innocent disconnect and be able to rejoin their buddies for 15mins (thus holding them up whilst they wait or making them all leave the server to join a new one)

Firstly, the current night-time and torches needs to be fixed, it's too dark for 99% of activity, using a torch is suicide and using the gamma trick makes it inappropriately easy. I don't think it should be an equatorial day/night cycle of 50:50... I'd go for a near Arctic summertime, with 90% of the gametime during daylight hours and extended dawn/dusks so it's only truly 'noon' bright for a short period with long drawn out periods of diminishing light levels either side, possibly never reaching full darkness but only ever deepening to white night (twilight) or a midnight sun (although a midnight sun will confuse the hell out of people trying to use it for navigation). I think really there should be a short period of complete darkness though, I just wanted to point out those possibilities. I think a few map based lightsources should be added to aid navigation - maybe a couple of buildings could have generators running, some vehicles with their headlights still on...that kinda thing. Once that's done to a degree where nighttime isn't the mess it is at the moment and is tolerable by everyone, I'm gonna be hardcore and suggest that the public hive has all servers synced on the same day/night cycle. Otherwise people can just avoid the zombies at night experience...which I think is sad. As for the cycle itself, 4/6/8/12/24 hour cycles aren't a great idea because then players would have the exact same conditions every day if they log in at the same time (and if it's locked to the public hive then someone round the world will never see anything different). Something like a 10 or 20 hour cycle would mean that players would experience different start times on consecutive days or even consecutive weekends. It's also long enough that the change in light levels shouldn't be overly perceptible to the players and diminish from the realism. Of that, something with maybe only 30-60 mins of actual complete darkness would be good...nothing too bad to make people say 'I can't play at all today cuz it's night-time on the servers'

FINALLY, a genuine answer! I would agree and had already considered this but wanted a 3PP advocate to mention it instead of trotting out the same old tired responses with no thought :D A quick but ugly solution would be to extend the LOS to the whole environment, making any invisible terrain black and white but then that's an added disadvantage for people who've already suffered blood loss as well as in night-time - they can't tell which bits of terrain they can or can't see :huh: Or they could completely remove any non-visible objects and terrain, but that would look ugly as well... maybe add an overlay of a specific colour or just darken the palette on invisible terrain to differentiate it?

@OP: It means pvper.

I'm not saying don't like what I don't like. I'm talking purely in game design mechanics. I'm trying to suggest a way that the game can incorporate 3PP without destroying the feel of horror whilst surviving that should be a part of the design...of a survival horror game... So I'm not talking about removing choice in this case (although I am in the case of day/night, but that's a separate matter for a separate thread - imo darkness and light should be thought about and discussed properly as well rather than just letting people have 24/7 daylight servers on the public hive, cuz daylight isn't really the stereotypical situation in horror genres), I'm talking about enabling 3PP players to experience the world as the dev intends for it to be experienced. Not removing a feature, fixing it...it's in the thread title. It's not my problem, it's a problem for developing and balancing the game in terms of the basic survival elements - loot, zombies, health degradation over time...I'm happy in 1PP servers right now with its barebones structure BUT as development progresses, there will come a time where the game as it stands will be affected by the PP choice EVEN EXCLUDING PVP ELEMENTS (where yes, since every player has the same things available, it's an even playing field...if everyone adopts the same playstyle). Thinking in the future, when hunger and thirst mechanics become more affecting, the general camping of an area for pvp will become less prominent and players will have to move around more for supplies - at this stage, players with 3PP as it is currently implemented will have a much easier time avoiding and dealing with zombies whilst scavenging and a faster time to clear out towns and cities as a result. This is where the balance and horror issues in the design will come in to play. EDIT: grammar

Did you read OP and consider what I said already? It affects how you move around the map, specifically in terms of safety and speed. This affects all other factors that will be balanced when the product reaches Beta (hunger/thirst/loot distribution/zombie AI and health). And have you considered how boring other survival horror games would be if you could see exactly what's around the next corner at no risk to yourself? Thought not. Please give reasons for your argument. I've backed up mine numerous times in numerous ways and with examples for comparison. EDIT: I agree about day/night as well...personally I think there should be fixed day/night cycles at something like 20 hour loops, so every day you're slightly more advanced in the cycle than the day before...but no point implementing this without fixing the gamma/brightness issues. Ping is ping is the same with every game. I'm trying to prevent unnecessary fracturing of the community and keep the design to be experienced as intended.

Read OP, then comment. Screws up balancing/immersion and divides playerbase. Results in subpar gameplay for all. It's killing the intended gameplay/immersion of the lead dev "I want to remove...3rd person" (source: http://www.reddit.com/r/dayz/comments/16p21g/overview_of_rockets_ama_from_today/). Not a good solution in other words, fine for now in the alpha, but as things progress it will screw up the design. Obviously after the last thread, we can't just remove third person as Rocket has realised...so why not implement the LOS mechanic to remove the exploit that's breaking the game design and feeling? Why is everyone so opposed to this? I haven't heard a single good reason. Just diversionary attempts: 'Go play 1PP only' (which I do already) To me that sounds the same as saying I want to look around walls in a survival horror game, which as I posted above, kills the intended gameplay.

but you are used to it? And don't want to lose it for nostalgia/not having to learn to cope without it? Or because it should be in the game because it affects the game design in a positive way? (lol)

I get stuck in doorways in 3PP just as often as I do in 1PP - imo they should just make the doors a little wider or allow weapons and backpacks to clip through the frames - it removes some realism, but would make indoor navigation a ton easier. Never had FPS issues in either (pretty sure that 1PP should have marginally higher FPS since it's not having to render a detailed model in the foreground of each scene)

As mentioned in OP (and highlighted above once already): It creates balance issues. It makes looting and observing ahead easier and so changes player movement through the map. As a result EVERYTHING has to be rebalanced independently for each server type, from health and blood mechanics, hunger and thirst, loot spawning. (Good) 1PP players move slower through the map because they have to survey the area ahead - this changes everything when you have a water metre ticking down. At this point, it really does seem that 3PP players just like the crutch of xray vision and are unwilling to even consider how it's lowering the quality of the experience for themselves. As I also said in OP, disregarding pvp, imagine playing the best survival horror games/series of the last few decades (Amnesia, Dead Space, Resident Evil, Silent Hill imo) with a freecam that can see what's coming around every corner - Res Evil has a tightly bound shoulder cam (and used to have completely fixed cams at awkward angles looking at you from the corner of rooms etc), Alan Wake and Silent Hill have flashlight mechanics to restrict viewable areas. Amnesia had a restricted view, the sanity mechanic, darkness AND had invisible enemies just to put the willies up you. Horror is about suspense and tension over the unknown. Remove the unknown and you remove the horror. This is supposed to be a survival HORROR game. If the 3PP players want a diluted experience of what the devs intended, then sure they should keep arguing for the ability to see the unknowable. They should also ask for a warning before anything scary happens when they go to the cinema. EDIT: Also honourable mentions to the Cradle and Ravenholme levels in Thief: Deadly Shadows and HL2 - these two highlight level and sound design rather than mechanics though, although both have very dark lighting affecting your vision, which most people running around Chernarus don't experience.

Yep, it's the bandits that have spent 30mins server hopping to get their gear that don't want to lose it when they get ambushed by someone else using the peek over walls exploit. Not the freshspawn with a tin of beans he can't even open and a torch he won't even use. My opinion - ANOTHER one of these threads - Not game breaking to the point of unplayability - Fix it later after some of the more pressing issues

GG - added a link to the vid in the OP. You mention that there were issues with how vehicles are coded that stopped you implementing this for driving as well...care to elaborate for the few people that would understand - not me personally, but I'm sure some that read the forums would be interested - maybe Rocket himself ;)

Could work...personally I'd suggest a simple tiptoe mechanic 'Q+E' or something similar. Could also be used to peek over low walls when crouched which seems to be what a lot of rooftop snipers want to do - I prefer as little HUD work as possible whilst playing I have no idea how much obscuration the mentioned mod can handle...but I see no reason why it wouldn't be able to load different overlays and use that to affect what's displayed. Possibly it could just use a reduced fov as a simplified technique. Would have to hear from the author... As mentioned in the OP, this divides the playerbase (unnecessarily if the fix can be implemented) and it creates balance issues in terms of PvE content.

Even as my less preferred view, I'd say a great reason for using 3PP is just to enjoy the scenery :) An extra 6 foot on your viewpoint makes most minor contour variations moot and you get a much better view of the gameworld whilst you run around. You get the kind of views that are impossible from 1PP unless you put yourself in an exposed position. Most likely why it's very popular with streamers.

I kinda feel bad cuz another thread about this popped up whilst I was editing - and also as impartial as I tried to be, I mostly play in 1PP so my experience is still slanted one way - 3PP guys feel free to point out the stuff you don't like in 1PP for my edification.

Click where it says 'View more info' in his profile description. Wulfie: "I feel slightly obliged to write this here, since people really love riffing off on the fact and claiming that all my information is void and my opinions invalid, no matter the detail and backed-up facts. Yes, I do have a VAC ban on record. No, it is not a legit ban. It doesn't matter to me whether or not you wish to believe me, because from your perspective, it's my word against Valve's, and I wouldn't believe it either. But for the reasonable people, or those aware of the known false-positive VAC bans, I became a victim of one several years ago. (4 or so?) You can read more about known false-positives that Valve is aware of and refuses to revert from the link below. It is a Source Engine related ban, that's all I know. Possibly a mod that changed the way the game was rendered. - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valve_Anti-Cheat#False-positive_detections"

3PP per se is not bad but as it is currently implemented, it has a broken, exploitable mechanic. Anyone that fails to see that it is a broken mechanic is really not thinking very hard about player interactions in the environment; with each other, with NPCs or with static objects. As a result of this broken mechanic the playerbases have to be kept separate for now (and in the forums it would seem). Aside from that, it's a pure matter of opinion. Personally I like the immersion of playing in 1PP, others get motion sickness from it. Yes pls, that would be awesome. I'd like the gasmask to have some functional advantage to make it worthwhile to wear though (other than looking kewl in 3PP*)...or they might as well remove it from the loot. Also they'd need to severely lower the amount of ballistic helmets on the map so that more people have to stick with the motorbike option or go without head protection to keep better vision. At the moment there's no question about wearing a helmet, you find one, you put it on - it's a no brainer. Intelligent* players like choices and decisions where they have to weigh up pros and cons. Nice attempt at antagonising btw 3/10 *added in Edits for clarification

Video or at least a description (with locations) would be necessary before anyone can even guess...